Pointing out that a feature doesn't do something it doesn't say it does is not an "interpretation," my guy. A "sphere of twilight" can be anything. What it does is fill a volume with dim light. What happens when you fill with a dim light a volume that already has bright light in it? It gets brighter. That is how light works. Since the feature doesn't say that its light works any differently from any other light, that's what happens. And absolutely none of that requires that the feature not create a sphere of twilight.
Rules do what they say and they don't do what they don't say.
I'd agree that it is quite poorly written because it doesn't specify how it interacts with other light (like the Darkness spell does for example). The one thing we know is that the sphere is filled with dim light because that's what it says.
The problem is that with your interpretation that becomes utterly useless information because if you don't allow that dim light to affect/override any other light then the only time the sphere actually is filled with dim light is when the sphere is in a place where there already was dim light. So the one thing we know it does, doesn't actually happen which seems somewhat counter-intuitive tbh.
Why wouldn't the sphere of twilight also ignore exterior ambient light?
Because the text doesn't say it can.
It does say it creates a sphere of twilight, though. So, if your interpretation causes it to not create a sphere of twilight, and instead creates a 'sphere of no obvious change to the ambient lighting conditions', then you messed up and should try again.
Pointing out that a feature doesn't do something it doesn't say it does is not an "interpretation," my guy. A "sphere of twilight" can be anything.
No, it cannot "be anything" the text of the feature describes what it is perfectly well. The sphere is: "The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light."
What it does is fill a volume with dim light.
No, it creates a sphere that is filled with dim light. "filled with dim light" is a characteristic of the sphere.
The ability doesn't create a 'volume" or an "area" or anything like that. It creates a sphere.
The properties of this sphere are described in the ability.
What happens when you fill with a dim light a volume that already has bright light in it? It gets brighter. That is how light works.
The ability doesn't "fill a volume". It creates a sphere.
Since the feature doesn't say that its light works any differently from any other light, that's what happens.
No, it just does what it says: creates a sphere.
And absolutely none of that requires that the feature not create a sphere of twilight.
All the feature does is create a sphere of twilight. The rest of the text describes the properties of that sphere.
Rules do what they say and they don't do what they don't say.
exactly, so stop talking about things it does say. It doesn't fill a volume, it doesn't create an area. This isn't an area of effect spell.
The ability creates: sphere of twilight.
What is a sphere of twilight? You say it "can be anything" but wotc and the authors instead say that it is:
Centered on you
30ft radius
filled with dim light
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I think some of the disagreement here comes from the fact that dim light can be taken as light that is dim and the light status of "dim light". If you view the ability has being filled with light that is dim, then it makes sense that it doens't dim existing light. But if you rather view it as filling the area with the condition/status of "dim light" then it overrides the status of "bright light" and "darkness"
We can agree on one thing, the rules do what they say they do. And, the specific rule of Twilight Sanctuary overrides the general rule of how light works. It creates a 30' sphere of dim light.
In your view, the tiny hut could not be dark inside in a open field at midday, even though the rule states you command it to be dark.
Neither says, unless you are in bright light. But, you want to add that caveat while also asserting they only do what they say.
Dim light, also called shadows, is what the sphere of Twilight Sanctuary is filled with, which to me means it affect ambiant light or darkness with such dim light/shadows.
Let me simultaneously clarify and confuse this issue.
The spell says that the area is "filled with dim light", not that the spell "fills the area with dim light" as some have suggested.
There are two ways to interpret this. One would be that the area "is filled with" "dim light", meaning that the entire area's filling is dim light, period, end of story, regardless of all other factors (except the precedence of other magical effects) like torches and the Sun, so the entire area is dim both at night and in the daytime and when other non-magical light sources are applied. The other is that the areas is "filled" "with dim light", meaning that dim light fills the area, in addition to any other light, allowing torches and sunlight to add to the light and make it brighter. A dev says it's the former. The DM is free to choose the latter instead.
so wait a minute, dim light is not even light of any kind, nor is it darkness... it is shadows.
The rules do say dim light is a category of illumination, just like bright light is for exemple. A dim light is a light who's illumination is dimmed and filled with shadows compared to bright light.
Within the sphere of Twilight Sanctuary is this category of illumination that prevail as the feature says.
The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness.
categories of illumination maybe refers to how bright areas are
it does say the presence or absence of light
of those 3 only bright light is a light source
dim light is shadows... and darkness is darkness
Where does it say dim light is is not a light source? It's a category of illumination you can also call shadow yes and usually is found at the extent of bright light, before it dies out in darkness.
If you're in darkness and fire a candle, it will produce a light source thought.
bright light is dimmed, and darkness brightened... by dim light
Exactly, darkness is brightened by dim light because it is a light source, as the name implies dim light.
I think it is on the contrary, both a light source filled with shadow. See for exemple Dancing Lights or Faerie Fire, which specifically shed dim light. If it's not a light source letting you see in darkness, what does it shed about? Such illumination makes lightly obscured area, which grant disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight as opposed to heavily obscured ones that automatically fails instead.
Dancing Lights: Whichever form you choose, each light sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius.
but the quote you used before including darkness as a source of light... complete and utter darkness is a source of light... now it wasn't your quote, but you did use it to make your point
you're ultimately on the wrong side of this
to get back to the whole point of this thread... twilight sanctuary creates a 30 foot radius of dim light
if it is a light source... and a light source that dims bright light... how can bright light penetrate and diminish it?
it can't
I never said darkness was a light source, the absence of light in an environment creates darkness.
As i said, a sphere of Twilight Sanctuary is filled with dim light, which to me means it dim bright light and illuminate darkness altogheter. Why it dim bright light is due to shadows, and why it illuminate darkness is due to dim light.
I agree because of the magic nature of the spell. I don't have the same ruling for nonmagical light, the highest category apply whenever multiple ones overlap. For exemple, the area of torch's dim light would not dim a campfire or torch's bright light when overlapping.
this doesn't get around the RAW that twilight sanctuary creates 30 foot radius of dim light
That isn't what it does. I think that is the point some people have tried to explain here. it doesn't create a 30ft aoe light effect. If you read it carefully it is actually creating a sphere. This special sphere, then, has the listed magical properties. Being 30ft radius. Filled with dim light. Removing fear/charm and granting temp hp. These are all traits the sphere possesses. Not the listed effects of an AOE.
This might be easy to miss since we're super familiar with AOEs because there are a ton of them in the game. But, rereading it you'll notice the difference, I think. It creates a sphere, and then lists the features of that sphere.
The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it lasts for 1 minute...
This can be linguistically broken into smaller concepts and parsed as:
The sphere is centered on you.
The sphere has a 30ft radius.
The sphere is filled with dim light.
The sphere moves with you.
The sphere lasts for one minute...
Etc. Because everything listed here is, again, traits that the sphere-you-created has. Not an AOE spell effect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This might be easy to miss since we're super familiar with AOEs because there are a ton of them in the game. But, rereading it you'll notice the difference, I think. It creates a sphere, and then lists the features of that sphere.
That is literally what an AoE is. You're just describing an AoE.
It seems pretty clear to me that the sphere is filled with dim light, then it creates an area of dim light. It doesn't emit dim light, but magically the light in that area is dim light. If not they had written it another way (like emitting dim light at 30ft or something).
I mean, for me it's similar to what the darkness spell does but with dim light.
It could be better explained, it is true, but for me it is quite clear that the intention is that.
To some people there is no difference between "fills" and "sheds". To others, that word choice is important. Some people say that light is essentially additive, and that this therefore means bright light would override the dim light. To others, the purpose of the class is to "make twilight" in circumstances where it might not otherwise exist, and so it doesn't make sense that it would only work in darkness.
While I find the "light only adds" argument appealing from a logical description of how light works in the game, I think the RAI behind the class suggests that it should override the ambient light, brightening darkness, and dimming bright light.
My guess is that if it didn't create an area of dim light, it wouldn't make sense to specify that the sphere is filled with dim light. What are they going to put that for if not to tell you to create a dim light area? But I think we all agree that is poorly explained . However, it's not difficult to see the intention of this. Outside your sphere the sun may be shining, but inside your sphere shines the light of your god: dim light. And it's the only light that is there, since it is a magical area consecrated by your god. A Twilight sanctuary.
This might be easy to miss since we're super familiar with AOEs because there are a ton of them in the game. But, rereading it you'll notice the difference, I think. It creates a sphere, and then lists the features of that sphere.
That is literally what an AoE is. You're just describing an AoE.
I am describing a sphere, made of twilight. Yes, some AOEs are also spherical, but not all spheres are AOEs.
As for what AOEs are, they're well defined by the rules as:
Areas of Effect
Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once.
A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9.
This can be found in Chapter 10: Spellcasting, and, believe it or not specifically applies to spells. Twilight Sanctuary is not a spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This might be easy to miss since we're super familiar with AOEs because there are a ton of them in the game. But, rereading it you'll notice the difference, I think. It creates a sphere, and then lists the features of that sphere.
That is literally what an AoE is. You're just describing an AoE.
I am describing a sphere, made of twilight. Yes, some AOEs are also spherical, but not all spheres are AOEs.
As for what AOEs are, they're well defined by the rules as:
This can be found in Chapter 10: Spellcasting, and, believe it or not specifically applies to spells. Twilight Sanctuary is not a spell.
Those are the rules for AoE spells. Spells are not the only things that can create areas of effect. All an area of effect is is an area (or volume, as the case may be) within which there exists some effect, which lots of different types of things can create, and which is exactly what you described. There aren't any rules that depend on whether or not something is an area of effect, so I'm not even sure why you brought it up to begin with.
This might be easy to miss since we're super familiar with AOEs because there are a ton of them in the game. But, rereading it you'll notice the difference, I think. It creates a sphere, and then lists the features of that sphere.
That is literally what an AoE is. You're just describing an AoE.
I am describing a sphere, made of twilight. Yes, some AOEs are also spherical, but not all spheres are AOEs.
As for what AOEs are, they're well defined by the rules as:
This can be found in Chapter 10: Spellcasting, and, believe it or not specifically applies to spells. Twilight Sanctuary is not a spell.
Those are the rules for AoE spells. Spells are not the only things that can create areas of effect. All an area of effect is is an area (or volume, as the case may be) within which there exists some effect, which lots of different types of things can create, and which is exactly what you described. There aren't any rules that depend on whether or not something is an area of effect, so I'm not even sure why you brought it up to begin with.
There is a difference between an effect that creates dim light out to 30ft radius vs one that creates a sphere that has a trait: Is filled with dim light. That is why I brought it up. Because it is directly relevant to the topic.
The ability creates a unique magical sphere. It doesn't create an aoe. An Area of Effect is an area that is being host to an effect. This isn't that. Instead, it is a thing being created that has traits/properties. Yes, this thing does fill an area. Most things do. But if you summon a chair into the middle of the room the chair isn't an area of effect either.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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I'd agree that it is quite poorly written because it doesn't specify how it interacts with other light (like the Darkness spell does for example). The one thing we know is that the sphere is filled with dim light because that's what it says.
The problem is that with your interpretation that becomes utterly useless information because if you don't allow that dim light to affect/override any other light then the only time the sphere actually is filled with dim light is when the sphere is in a place where there already was dim light. So the one thing we know it does, doesn't actually happen which seems somewhat counter-intuitive tbh.
No, it cannot "be anything" the text of the feature describes what it is perfectly well. The sphere is: "The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light."
No, it creates a sphere that is filled with dim light. "filled with dim light" is a characteristic of the sphere.
The ability doesn't create a 'volume" or an "area" or anything like that. It creates a sphere.
The properties of this sphere are described in the ability.
The ability doesn't "fill a volume". It creates a sphere.
No, it just does what it says: creates a sphere.
All the feature does is create a sphere of twilight. The rest of the text describes the properties of that sphere.
exactly, so stop talking about things it does say. It doesn't fill a volume, it doesn't create an area. This isn't an area of effect spell.
The ability creates: sphere of twilight.
What is a sphere of twilight? You say it "can be anything" but wotc and the authors instead say that it is:
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I think some of the disagreement here comes from the fact that dim light can be taken as light that is dim and the light status of "dim light". If you view the ability has being filled with light that is dim, then it makes sense that it doens't dim existing light. But if you rather view it as filling the area with the condition/status of "dim light" then it overrides the status of "bright light" and "darkness"
We can agree on one thing, the rules do what they say they do. And, the specific rule of Twilight Sanctuary overrides the general rule of how light works. It creates a 30' sphere of dim light.
In your view, the tiny hut could not be dark inside in a open field at midday, even though the rule states you command it to be dark.
Neither says, unless you are in bright light. But, you want to add that caveat while also asserting they only do what they say.
Dim light, also called shadows, is what the sphere of Twilight Sanctuary is filled with, which to me means it affect ambiant light or darkness with such dim light/shadows.
Let me simultaneously clarify and confuse this issue.
The spell says that the area is "filled with dim light", not that the spell "fills the area with dim light" as some have suggested.
There are two ways to interpret this. One would be that the area "is filled with" "dim light", meaning that the entire area's filling is dim light, period, end of story, regardless of all other factors (except the precedence of other magical effects) like torches and the Sun, so the entire area is dim both at night and in the daytime and when other non-magical light sources are applied. The other is that the areas is "filled" "with dim light", meaning that dim light fills the area, in addition to any other light, allowing torches and sunlight to add to the light and make it brighter. A dev says it's the former. The DM is free to choose the latter instead.
The rules do say dim light is a category of illumination, just like bright light is for exemple. A dim light is a light who's illumination is dimmed and filled with shadows compared to bright light.
Within the sphere of Twilight Sanctuary is this category of illumination that prevail as the feature says.
Where does it say dim light is is not a light source? It's a category of illumination you can also call shadow yes and usually is found at the extent of bright light, before it dies out in darkness.
If you're in darkness and fire a candle, it will produce a light source thought.
Exactly, darkness is brightened by dim light because it is a light source, as the name implies dim light.
I think it is on the contrary, both a light source filled with shadow. See for exemple Dancing Lights or Faerie Fire, which specifically shed dim light. If it's not a light source letting you see in darkness, what does it shed about? Such illumination makes lightly obscured area, which grant disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight as opposed to heavily obscured ones that automatically fails instead.
I honestly don't think anyone is going to convince anyone of the opposite opinion based on what text we have available.
Until a Sage Advice or official errata appears, the debate will always be there.
I never said darkness was a light source, the absence of light in an environment creates darkness.
As i said, a sphere of Twilight Sanctuary is filled with dim light, which to me means it dim bright light and illuminate darkness altogheter. Why it dim bright light is due to shadows, and why it illuminate darkness is due to dim light.
I agree because of the magic nature of the spell. I don't have the same ruling for nonmagical light, the highest category apply whenever multiple ones overlap. For exemple, the area of torch's dim light would not dim a campfire or torch's bright light when overlapping.
That isn't what it does. I think that is the point some people have tried to explain here. it doesn't create a 30ft aoe light effect. If you read it carefully it is actually creating a sphere. This special sphere, then, has the listed magical properties. Being 30ft radius. Filled with dim light. Removing fear/charm and granting temp hp. These are all traits the sphere possesses. Not the listed effects of an AOE.
This might be easy to miss since we're super familiar with AOEs because there are a ton of them in the game. But, rereading it you'll notice the difference, I think. It creates a sphere, and then lists the features of that sphere.
The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it lasts for 1 minute...
This can be linguistically broken into smaller concepts and parsed as:
Etc. Because everything listed here is, again, traits that the sphere-you-created has. Not an AOE spell effect.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That is literally what an AoE is. You're just describing an AoE.
It seems pretty clear to me that the sphere is filled with dim light, then it creates an area of dim light. It doesn't emit dim light, but magically the light in that area is dim light. If not they had written it another way (like emitting dim light at 30ft or something).
I mean, for me it's similar to what the darkness spell does but with dim light.
It could be better explained, it is true, but for me it is quite clear that the intention is that.
I feel like the RAW is not sufficiently clear.
To some people there is no difference between "fills" and "sheds". To others, that word choice is important.
Some people say that light is essentially additive, and that this therefore means bright light would override the dim light.
To others, the purpose of the class is to "make twilight" in circumstances where it might not otherwise exist, and so it doesn't make sense that it would only work in darkness.
While I find the "light only adds" argument appealing from a logical description of how light works in the game, I think the RAI behind the class suggests that it should override the ambient light, brightening darkness, and dimming bright light.
My guess is that if it didn't create an area of dim light, it wouldn't make sense to specify that the sphere is filled with dim light. What are they going to put that for if not to tell you to create a dim light area? But I think we all agree that is poorly explained . However, it's not difficult to see the intention of this. Outside your sphere the sun may be shining, but inside your sphere shines the light of your god: dim light. And it's the only light that is there, since it is a magical area consecrated by your god. A Twilight sanctuary.
I am describing a sphere, made of twilight. Yes, some AOEs are also spherical, but not all spheres are AOEs.
As for what AOEs are, they're well defined by the rules as:
Areas of Effect
Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once.
A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9.
This can be found in Chapter 10: Spellcasting, and, believe it or not specifically applies to spells. Twilight Sanctuary is not a spell.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Those are the rules for AoE spells. Spells are not the only things that can create areas of effect. All an area of effect is is an area (or volume, as the case may be) within which there exists some effect, which lots of different types of things can create, and which is exactly what you described. There aren't any rules that depend on whether or not something is an area of effect, so I'm not even sure why you brought it up to begin with.
There is a difference between an effect that creates dim light out to 30ft radius vs one that creates a sphere that has a trait: Is filled with dim light. That is why I brought it up. Because it is directly relevant to the topic.
The ability creates a unique magical sphere. It doesn't create an aoe. An Area of Effect is an area that is being host to an effect. This isn't that. Instead, it is a thing being created that has traits/properties. Yes, this thing does fill an area. Most things do. But if you summon a chair into the middle of the room the chair isn't an area of effect either.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.