It seems pretty clear to me that the sphere is filled with dim light, then it creates an area of dim light. It doesn't emit dim light, but magically the light in that area is dim light. If not they had written it another way (like emitting dim light at 30ft or something).
I mean, for me it's similar to what the darkness spell does but with dim light.
It could be better explained, it is true, but for me it is quite clear that the intention is that.
Looks like it's time once again to break out the list of spells that use "fill" on a light level.
In particular, in the general case, it is the highest form of shenanigans to interpret Twilight Sanctuary differently from Moonbeam or Symbol, as the same terminology is used. It is also shenanigans, just not quite as bad, to use Darkness as precedent for anything, because it has specific text in it adjudicating what happens when it encounters brighter light - just like Hallow and Maddening Darkness do; precisely 0 of those three spells let you assume that "fill" means "trumps brighter light", because all 3 explicitly state that they trump brighter light in separate text from the word "fill".
It seems pretty clear to me that the sphere is filled with dim light, then it creates an area of dim light. It doesn't emit dim light, but magically the light in that area is dim light. If not they had written it another way (like emitting dim light at 30ft or something).
I mean, for me it's similar to what the darkness spell does but with dim light.
It could be better explained, it is true, but for me it is quite clear that the intention is that.
Looks like it's time once again to break out the list of spells that use "fill" on a light level.
In particular, in the general case, it is the highest form of shenanigans to interpret Twilight Sanctuary differently from Moonbeam or Symbol, as the same terminology is used. It is also shenanigans, just not quite as bad, to use Darkness as precedent for anything, because it has specific text in it adjudicating what happens when it encounters brighter light - just like Hallow and Maddening Darkness do; precisely 0 of those three spells let you assume that "fill" means "trumps brighter light", because all 3 explicitly state that they trump brighter light in separate text from the word "fill".
I don't quite understand what you want to prove with that. I don't see how those spells can confirm or disprove one thing or another. Do they have something to do with the divinity channel called Twilight Sanctuary? It doesn't seem that way to me, really. But maybe I'm missing something.
In any case, for me the existing light is "overwritten" with Dim Light inside the sphere. It doesn't say it clearly, but the design intent is that. They even called the Divinity Chanell "Twilight Sanctuary". Why? Well, as someone said before: "because it creates an area of Dim Light consecrated by your god".
I think the problem here is that they didn't take into account the mechanical implications of this. They wanted to do it as something aesthetic, without thinking about the implications. And, of course, that's when the discussions started since a Dim Light area can be very beneficial depending on what you combine it with. (a Shadow Blade, a Drow, etc...). If it hadn't really been involved, no one would be talking about this and it would have remained a mere aesthetic effect that almost no one would remember (like the color that things glow with the "Faery Fire" spell, which everyone forgets to choose one because it really doesn't matter).
If the area of dim light dimmed brighter sources, wouldn't it say that it did? There are other features (Oathbreaker dread lord, Shadow of Moil) that say they reduce light from bright sources, and this feature doesn't say that.
There is a difference between an effect that creates dim light out to 30ft radius vs one that creates a sphere that has a trait: Is filled with dim light. That is why I brought it up. Because it is directly relevant to the topic.
The ability creates a unique magical sphere. It doesn't create an aoe. An Area of Effect is an area that is being host to an effect. This isn't that. Instead, it is a thing being created that has traits/properties. Yes, this thing does fill an area. Most things do. But if you summon a chair into the middle of the room the chair isn't an area of effect either.
Yes, an area of effect is an area that is being host to an effect, which is exactly how you are describing this. If you summon a chair, the chair isn't an area of effect, but if you create a chair-shaped area within which there are certain effects, that is an area of effect.
Again, there are no rules attached to something being an AoE or not, so it's not relevant and doesn't matter, and I can't waste any more energy with someone who's arguing that a square isn't a square, it's a Euclidean quadrilateral with four right angles and sides of equal length.
If the area of dim light dimmed brighter sources, wouldn't it say that it did? There are other features (Oathbreaker dread lord, Shadow of Moil) that say they reduce light from bright sources, and this feature doesn't say that.
Because they don't use the same terminology for all the rules, which would avoid a lot of arguing. Being the same company as Magic: The gathering they could also use a tag system in D&D.
In any case, until they clear it up, if they ever clear it up, there's no choice but to let each DM decide. It's obvious to me that the intention is to create a dim light area around the cleric (his Twilight Sanctuary). But someone else can understand it differently.
However, for me, the fact that one rule says things in one way, and another in another, an argument that is often used a lot, does not prove anything. They do it constantly.
If the area of dim light dimmed brighter sources, wouldn't it say that it did? There are other features (Oathbreaker dread lord, Shadow of Moil) that say they reduce light from bright sources, and this feature doesn't say that.
These game elements are different since they don't create light at all. They instead create some aura of gloom or shadow that dim light sources from bright light to dim light or from dim light to darkness. In darkness, they don't shed any light for you to see.
That dinctinction doesn't really prove anything since its about a different thing. Them not being light but otherwise dimming it in some way doesn't prove or disprove that a magical sphere of dim light may dim bright light.
@carlos_cisco How do the Twilight domain abilities work in bright light... or say... somewhere with no day/night cycle like Avernus or the Feywild? Does the aura of dim light reduce the light in the general area if it's bright out?
@Dan_Dillon_1 It is dim light. It dims bright light, and lights up darkness
Like i said, i don't think it should apply to all dim light source necessarily. Lighting up a torch in broad daylight shouldn't create some shadow whatsoever by providing bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet.
Is Dan Dillon a person whose commentary on rules carries any particular authority? Because that's pretty much the only thing that position has going for it.
Is Dan Dillon a person whose commentary on rules carries any particular authority? Because that's pretty much the only thing that position has going for it.
Dan Dillon was in the design team that worked on the Twillight Domain as Jeremy Crawford says in the Dragontalk (03:50)
For me, JC's commentary is good guidance on the intention behind the rules. I watched the video, and it certainly seems to me that the intention is for the area to be dim regardless of the ambient lighting, although he mostly talks about it in the context of illuminating darkness. As written, it doesn't dim bright light, but I believe it was meant to, and that's good enough for me.
Is Dan Dillon a person whose commentary on rules carries any particular authority? Because that's pretty much the only thing that position has going for it.
Dan Dillon was in the design team that worked on the Twillight Domain as Jeremy Crawford says in the Dragontalk (03:50)
If that is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then I think there is no need to debate further. I mean, if the designer says it dims the bright light, I don't see any point in arguing further. The design intention is that, which was clear from the beginning beyond how poorly it's explained in the rule.
There is a difference between an effect that creates dim light out to 30ft radius vs one that creates a sphere that has a trait: Is filled with dim light. That is why I brought it up. Because it is directly relevant to the topic.
The ability creates a unique magical sphere. It doesn't create an aoe. An Area of Effect is an area that is being host to an effect. This isn't that. Instead, it is a thing being created that has traits/properties. Yes, this thing does fill an area. Most things do. But if you summon a chair into the middle of the room the chair isn't an area of effect either.
Yes, an area of effect is an area that is being host to an effect, which is exactly how you are describing this. If you summon a chair, the chair isn't an area of effect, but if you create a chair-shaped area within which there are certain effects, that is an area of effect.
Again, there are no rules attached to something being an AoE or not, so it's not relevant and doesn't matter, and I can't waste any more energy with someone who's arguing that a square isn't a square, it's a Euclidean quadrilateral with four right angles and sides of equal length.
Yeah again, you're not effecting the area. You're creating a thing. Just like the chair, it has unique properties. The chair is made of wood, and you can sit in it. The sphere is made of twilight and it is filled with dim light. You can pick up the chair and move it, the sphere is 30ft radius and moves with you.
An example of an AOE would be something like the alarm spell. The "area" of effect in this spell is the 20 ft cube. This spell is even super obvious about it because it blatantly calls it such a couple times, some spells are a bit more subtly phrased.
Regardless, the distinction, here, is that Twilight Sanctuary is creating a thing, a "Sphere of Twilight" (and while not a chair, it helps to think of it in a similar way). Not an "Area of Twilight".
And, yes, if you want to, you could try to describe a chair as if it were an area of effect. It does indeed have volume, and the nature of its composition could be couched in language to describe how it functions in "effect-like" phrases. Eg. You target an area that is chair-shaped and within this area solid wood is summoned. An example of this is Wall of Stone. You create stone within a predefined area. Plus extra rules. But, you treat it not as an AOE but more like an object, in practice. Do the same for Twilight Sanctuary, save for it not being physically interactable in any meaningful way because it doesn't say it is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
How is this not a distinction without a difference?
A spherical object with the trait of dim light does not appear to mechanically make much difference than an area of effect that is filled with dim light.
Further, the distinction offers no clarity to how the din light interacts with ambient lighting.
In the simplest of possible answers, what do you think happens to the lighting around a Twilight Cleric when they use TS in midday sunlight?
Twilight Sanctuary create an area of effect in the shape of a 30 feet sphere centered on you, which moves with you. While most area of effects are created by spells, they are not necessarily always the case and other game feature, such as Twilight Sanctuary, can create one. Here's an official ruling making mention of it in the Sage Advice Compendium;
Does moonbeam deal damage when you cast it? What about when its effect moves onto a creature? The answer to both questions is no. Here’s some elaboration on that answer. Some spells and other game features create an area of effect that does something when a creature enters that area for the first time on a turn or when a creature starts its turn in that area...
Twilight Sanctuary create an area of effect in the shape of a 30 feet sphere centered on you, which moves with you. While most area of effects are created by spells, they are not necessarily always the case and other game feature, such as Twilight Sanctuary, can create one. Here's an official ruling making mention of it in the Sage Advice Compendium;
Does moonbeam deal damage when you cast it? What about when its effect moves onto a creature? The answer to both questions is no. Here’s some elaboration on that answer. Some spells and other game features create an area of effect that does something when a creature enters that area for the first time on a turn or when a creature starts its turn in that area...
You may have linked the incorrect quote, that one has nothing to do with Twilight Sanctuary, it is talking about the spell Moonbeam. Twilight Clerics do learn that spell, so, we're talking about the correct subclass, but, not the correct ability.
Nothing happens to creatures who enter the Sphere of Twilight or start their turn within the the Sphere of Twilight, so even that last sentence, speaking generally, isn't applicable either.
How is this not a distinction without a difference?
A spherical object with the trait of dim light does not appear to mechanically make much difference than an area of dim light that is filled with dim light.
Further, the distinction offers no clarity to how the din light interacts with ambient lighting.
In the simplest of possible answers, what do you think happens to the lighting around a Twilight Cleric when they use TS in midday sunlight?
Simplest possible answer? The same thing as if you had a spherical shaped room with no windows or doors, out in the sun. Is it brightly lit inside a tavern just because it is sunlight outside? No, it is whatever level light is getting put out from inside the tavern. In the case of twilight sanctuary, it is filled with dim light.
Just like if the tavern was dimly lit inside, whether it is bright and sunny or dark and gloomy out, still, inside the tavern, dim light. Same as that. Inside the sanctuary? Dim light.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Looks like it's time once again to break out the list of spells that use "fill" on a light level.
In particular, in the general case, it is the highest form of shenanigans to interpret Twilight Sanctuary differently from Moonbeam or Symbol, as the same terminology is used. It is also shenanigans, just not quite as bad, to use Darkness as precedent for anything, because it has specific text in it adjudicating what happens when it encounters brighter light - just like Hallow and Maddening Darkness do; precisely 0 of those three spells let you assume that "fill" means "trumps brighter light", because all 3 explicitly state that they trump brighter light in separate text from the word "fill".
I don't quite understand what you want to prove with that. I don't see how those spells can confirm or disprove one thing or another. Do they have something to do with the divinity channel called Twilight Sanctuary? It doesn't seem that way to me, really. But maybe I'm missing something.
In any case, for me the existing light is "overwritten" with Dim Light inside the sphere. It doesn't say it clearly, but the design intent is that. They even called the Divinity Chanell "Twilight Sanctuary". Why? Well, as someone said before: "because it creates an area of Dim Light consecrated by your god".
I think the problem here is that they didn't take into account the mechanical implications of this. They wanted to do it as something aesthetic, without thinking about the implications. And, of course, that's when the discussions started since a Dim Light area can be very beneficial depending on what you combine it with. (a Shadow Blade, a Drow, etc...). If it hadn't really been involved, no one would be talking about this and it would have remained a mere aesthetic effect that almost no one would remember (like the color that things glow with the "Faery Fire" spell, which everyone forgets to choose one because it really doesn't matter).
If the area of dim light dimmed brighter sources, wouldn't it say that it did? There are other features (Oathbreaker dread lord, Shadow of Moil) that say they reduce light from bright sources, and this feature doesn't say that.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yes, an area of effect is an area that is being host to an effect, which is exactly how you are describing this. If you summon a chair, the chair isn't an area of effect, but if you create a chair-shaped area within which there are certain effects, that is an area of effect.
Again, there are no rules attached to something being an AoE or not, so it's not relevant and doesn't matter, and I can't waste any more energy with someone who's arguing that a square isn't a square, it's a Euclidean quadrilateral with four right angles and sides of equal length.
Because they don't use the same terminology for all the rules, which would avoid a lot of arguing. Being the same company as Magic: The gathering they could also use a tag system in D&D.
In any case, until they clear it up, if they ever clear it up, there's no choice but to let each DM decide. It's obvious to me that the intention is to create a dim light area around the cleric (his Twilight Sanctuary). But someone else can understand it differently.
However, for me, the fact that one rule says things in one way, and another in another, an argument that is often used a lot, does not prove anything. They do it constantly.
These game elements are different since they don't create light at all. They instead create some aura of gloom or shadow that dim light sources from bright light to dim light or from dim light to darkness. In darkness, they don't shed any light for you to see.
Right. I was drawing the distinction between something that creates light (Twilight Sanctuary) and something that darkens light.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That dinctinction doesn't really prove anything since its about a different thing. Them not being light but otherwise dimming it in some way doesn't prove or disprove that a magical sphere of dim light may dim bright light.
Makes perfect sense to me.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Dan Dillon is specifically answering about Twilight Sanctuary https://twitter.com/Dan_Dillon_1/status/1179861283429990400
Like i said, i don't think it should apply to all dim light source necessarily. Lighting up a torch in broad daylight shouldn't create some shadow whatsoever by providing bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet.
EDIT As Jeremy Crawford explains in this Dragontalk Podcast, they wanted to create a shadow cleric with the Twilight Domain basically https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=512&v=c0Zv4449qNM&feature=emb_logo
So Twilight Sanctuary is described as a sphere of twilight emanating from you, which relates to something dim or obscure by definition.
Is Dan Dillon a person whose commentary on rules carries any particular authority? Because that's pretty much the only thing that position has going for it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Dan Dillon was in the design team that worked on the Twillight Domain as Jeremy Crawford says in the Dragontalk (03:50)
He's D&D lead designer, his commentary can help clarify intents behind some rules and carry a certain weight to many players and DMs.
But the DM is the authority over his or her own game, so whatever anyone say or comment, it's always up to the DM ☺
For me, JC's commentary is good guidance on the intention behind the rules. I watched the video, and it certainly seems to me that the intention is for the area to be dim regardless of the ambient lighting, although he mostly talks about it in the context of illuminating darkness. As written, it doesn't dim bright light, but I believe it was meant to, and that's good enough for me.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
If that is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then I think there is no need to debate further. I mean, if the designer says it dims the bright light, I don't see any point in arguing further. The design intention is that, which was clear from the beginning beyond how poorly it's explained in the rule.
Yeah again, you're not effecting the area. You're creating a thing. Just like the chair, it has unique properties. The chair is made of wood, and you can sit in it. The sphere is made of twilight and it is filled with dim light. You can pick up the chair and move it, the sphere is 30ft radius and moves with you.
An example of an AOE would be something like the alarm spell. The "area" of effect in this spell is the 20 ft cube. This spell is even super obvious about it because it blatantly calls it such a couple times, some spells are a bit more subtly phrased.
Regardless, the distinction, here, is that Twilight Sanctuary is creating a thing, a "Sphere of Twilight" (and while not a chair, it helps to think of it in a similar way). Not an "Area of Twilight".
And, yes, if you want to, you could try to describe a chair as if it were an area of effect. It does indeed have volume, and the nature of its composition could be couched in language to describe how it functions in "effect-like" phrases. Eg. You target an area that is chair-shaped and within this area solid wood is summoned. An example of this is Wall of Stone. You create stone within a predefined area. Plus extra rules. But, you treat it not as an AOE but more like an object, in practice. Do the same for Twilight Sanctuary, save for it not being physically interactable in any meaningful way because it doesn't say it is.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
How is this not a distinction without a difference?
A spherical object with the trait of dim light does not appear to mechanically make much difference than an area of effect that is filled with dim light.
Further, the distinction offers no clarity to how the din light interacts with ambient lighting.
In the simplest of possible answers, what do you think happens to the lighting around a Twilight Cleric when they use TS in midday sunlight?
Twilight Sanctuary create an area of effect in the shape of a 30 feet sphere centered on you, which moves with you. While most area of effects are created by spells, they are not necessarily always the case and other game feature, such as Twilight Sanctuary, can create one. Here's an official ruling making mention of it in the Sage Advice Compendium;
You may have linked the incorrect quote, that one has nothing to do with Twilight Sanctuary, it is talking about the spell Moonbeam. Twilight Clerics do learn that spell, so, we're talking about the correct subclass, but, not the correct ability.
Nothing happens to creatures who enter the Sphere of Twilight or start their turn within the the Sphere of Twilight, so even that last sentence, speaking generally, isn't applicable either.
Simplest possible answer? The same thing as if you had a spherical shaped room with no windows or doors, out in the sun. Is it brightly lit inside a tavern just because it is sunlight outside? No, it is whatever level light is getting put out from inside the tavern. In the case of twilight sanctuary, it is filled with dim light.
Just like if the tavern was dimly lit inside, whether it is bright and sunny or dark and gloomy out, still, inside the tavern, dim light. Same as that. Inside the sanctuary? Dim light.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.