I have some questions for the hive mind. Can you cure a party member if they become a vampire spawn or vampire? What if the source of the 'curse' is a magical fountain (so no vamp that did it to kill)? If a Divine Caster became evil (from a good god) from the transformation, would they retain their spells? Is there any RAW on dealing with these things?
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
Can you cure a party member if they become a vampire spawn or vampire? What if the source of the 'curse' is a magical fountain (so no vamp that did it to kill)?
The standard cure for undeath is True Resurrection (of course, a Wish could also do the trick.)
If a Divine Caster became evil (from a good god) from the transformation, would they retain their spells?
There are no rules for revoking a cleric's powers. It stands to a reason a deity will stop giving power to cleric that's acting against the deity's agenda, but what that means for the player character in practice is up to the DM. The simplest way to handle this is to simply change the cleric's domain and the deity that's granting their power, but the DM could come up with other solutions.
Vampirism isn't normally treated as a curse by the rules, so this solution depends entirely on the DM deciding the magical fountain's effect is a curse.
Generally, monster effects that turn PCs undead are considered permanently dead because of the whole resurrection not working on undead thing (except true res, a level 9 spell).
Spells like Raise Dead cannot return a currently undead creature to life. However, if you convert them to 'dead' again they are no longer undead and thus a valid target (though the ten day timer is relative to when they originally died, not when the undead form died).
Spells like Raise Dead cannot return a currently undead creature to life. However, if you convert them to 'dead' again they are no longer undead and thus a valid target (though the ten day timer is relative to when they originally died, not when the undead form died).
Personally, I agree with you on this. But most people don't and say that the body is a dead undead, which the spells don't work on.
There's a difference between a humanoid becoming undead and an undead creature using a humanoid's body as a puppet. If your friend's corpse is raised as a zombie, your friend isn't undead. They're a dead humanoid whose corpse has been hijacked by an evil spirit.
There's no such thing as a dead undead. An undead is either a spirit (that doesn't leave a corpse at all -- though its original corpse cannot be raised until the ghost is put to rest) or the animated corpse of some other class of creature (and when the effect animating it is ended, it reverts to the type of corpse it originally was).
An undead is either a spirit (that doesn't leave a corpse at all) or the animated corpse of some other class of creature (and when the effect animating it is ended, it reverts to the type of corpse it originally was).
Types are for creatures. Corpses are objects; they don't have types. Saying a corpse changes type is nonsense rules-wise.
Again, as far as the rules are concerned if your friend becomes a vampire your friend is undead now and that's a tough problem to fix. That's not the same thing as your dead friend's body being hijacked by a different undead creature.
An undead is either a spirit (that doesn't leave a corpse at all) or the animated corpse of some other class of creature (and when the effect animating it is ended, it reverts to the type of corpse it originally was).
Types are for creatures. Corpses are objects; they don't have types. Saying a corpse changes type is nonsense rules-wise.
If corpses don't have types then a corpse is not undead and, once again, it becomes legitimate to raise them. It's totally consistent:
Living Humanoid -- type is humanoid.
Kill the humanoid -- you now have the corpse of a humanoid. It is a legal target for raise dead.
An undead is either a spirit (that doesn't leave a corpse at all) or the animated corpse of some other class of creature (and when the effect animating it is ended, it reverts to the type of corpse it originally was).
Types are for creatures. Corpses are objects; they don't have types. Saying a corpse changes type is nonsense rules-wise.
If corpses don't have types then a corpse is not undead and, once again, it becomes legitimate to raise them. It's totally consistent:
Living Humanoid -- type is humanoid.
Kill the humanoid -- you now have the corpse of a humanoid. It is a legal target for raise dead.
Destroy the zombie -- you now have the corpse of a humanoid. It is a legal target for raise dead.
So, are you intepreting the sentence from Raise Dead that says " The spell can't return an undead creature to life." merely to apply to a creature that is still moving around?
The destroyed zombie is still the body of an "undead" not a "humanoid", so the spell shouldn't work.
My group uses Hamund's Harvesting Handbook houserule, and it includes the cure for a vampire spawn among other things. The catch is you make it from the blood of a vampire who turned the guy you want to cure.
That would be difficult since, in this case, it was from a blood pool, that may or may not still be there. (We teleported through it, and some that came out were 'magically' turned into Vamp spawn, which means no creator Vamp, and no burial ground to rest in... I am confused, and have no idea how to help my comrades...
The worst part is the 2 party members that failed are the full cleric, and the multiclassed cleric... so, yeah, no healers now in the group... (Well, a Celestial Warlock is still around, and how we have Revivify as an option still)...
Also your cleric teammates may consider applying to evil gods if their good gods abandoned them. We at the side of Evil pride ourselves at not discriminating against undead abominations mortally challenged, and totally aren't desperate for mortal servants as most prospective candidates for priests are picked by the side with a better PR and dental care.
Destroy the zombie -- you now have the corpse of a humanoid. It is a legal target for raise dead.
You're still conflating two different things here. The zombie is not the same creature as the original humanoid that died. Killing the zombie leaves you with a corpse that has at different points in time been the body for two different creatures. When you try to raise the non-zombie creature you're still raising a humanoid. They were a humanoid when they died.
That's different from a vampire killing a humanoid and bringing them back as a vampire. As far as the rules are concerned that person is no longer a humanoid. If hypothetically vampires left a corpse instead of turning to ash, killing that person just leaves you with the body of an undead creature. If you were to cast Revivify immediately you'd just be bringing a vampire back to life. Their undead status can't be cured with anything short of a 9th level spell or DM hand-waving.
So, are you intepreting the sentence from Raise Dead that says " The spell can't return an undead creature to life." merely to apply to a creature that is still moving around?
The destroyed zombie is still the body of an "undead" not a "humanoid", so the spell shouldn't work.
Yes. Once you destroy it, it's the corpse of a humanoid, not the corpse of a zombie.
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Hello all,
I have some questions for the hive mind.
Can you cure a party member if they become a vampire spawn or vampire? What if the source of the 'curse' is a magical fountain (so no vamp that did it to kill)?
If a Divine Caster became evil (from a good god) from the transformation, would they retain their spells?
Is there any RAW on dealing with these things?
Thanks in advance.
~Mad
remove curse, 3rd level spell (for vampirism)
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
The standard cure for undeath is True Resurrection (of course, a Wish could also do the trick.)
There are no rules for revoking a cleric's powers. It stands to a reason a deity will stop giving power to cleric that's acting against the deity's agenda, but what that means for the player character in practice is up to the DM. The simplest way to handle this is to simply change the cleric's domain and the deity that's granting their power, but the DM could come up with other solutions.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Do you think killing said infected, then casting Revivify on them would work?
~Mad
No. Revivify won't change their creature type. It's going to bring them back to life exactly as they were when they died: undead.
Vampirism isn't normally treated as a curse by the rules, so this solution depends entirely on the DM deciding the magical fountain's effect is a curse.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Generally, monster effects that turn PCs undead are considered permanently dead because of the whole resurrection not working on undead thing (except true res, a level 9 spell).
Spells like Raise Dead cannot return a currently undead creature to life. However, if you convert them to 'dead' again they are no longer undead and thus a valid target (though the ten day timer is relative to when they originally died, not when the undead form died).
Personally, I agree with you on this. But most people don't and say that the body is a dead undead, which the spells don't work on.
A dead undead is still undead.
There's a difference between a humanoid becoming undead and an undead creature using a humanoid's body as a puppet. If your friend's corpse is raised as a zombie, your friend isn't undead. They're a dead humanoid whose corpse has been hijacked by an evil spirit.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
There's no such thing as a dead undead. An undead is either a spirit (that doesn't leave a corpse at all -- though its original corpse cannot be raised until the ghost is put to rest) or the animated corpse of some other class of creature (and when the effect animating it is ended, it reverts to the type of corpse it originally was).
There's no such rule.
Types are for creatures. Corpses are objects; they don't have types. Saying a corpse changes type is nonsense rules-wise.
Again, as far as the rules are concerned if your friend becomes a vampire your friend is undead now and that's a tough problem to fix. That's not the same thing as your dead friend's body being hijacked by a different undead creature.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
If corpses don't have types then a corpse is not undead and, once again, it becomes legitimate to raise them. It's totally consistent:
So, are you intepreting the sentence from Raise Dead that says " The spell can't return an undead creature to life." merely to apply to a creature that is still moving around?
The destroyed zombie is still the body of an "undead" not a "humanoid", so the spell shouldn't work.
My group uses Hamund's Harvesting Handbook houserule, and it includes the cure for a vampire spawn among other things. The catch is you make it from the blood of a vampire who turned the guy you want to cure.
That would be difficult since, in this case, it was from a blood pool, that may or may not still be there. (We teleported through it, and some that came out were 'magically' turned into Vamp spawn, which means no creator Vamp, and no burial ground to rest in... I am confused, and have no idea how to help my comrades...
The worst part is the 2 party members that failed are the full cleric, and the multiclassed cleric... so, yeah, no healers now in the group... (Well, a Celestial Warlock is still around, and how we have Revivify as an option still)...
I am scared, I see dead people....
~Mad
Ask your DM. If they've done this then they should have a plan in place.
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Also your cleric teammates may consider applying to evil gods if their good gods abandoned them. We at the side of Evil pride ourselves at not discriminating against
undead abominationsmortally challenged, and totally aren't desperate for mortal servants as most prospective candidates for priests are picked by the side with a better PR and dental care.The resurrection spell doesn't care about the corpse is undead or not because, again, objects don't have types. What matters is the creature's type.
You're still conflating two different things here. The zombie is not the same creature as the original humanoid that died. Killing the zombie leaves you with a corpse that has at different points in time been the body for two different creatures. When you try to raise the non-zombie creature you're still raising a humanoid. They were a humanoid when they died.
That's different from a vampire killing a humanoid and bringing them back as a vampire. As far as the rules are concerned that person is no longer a humanoid. If hypothetically vampires left a corpse instead of turning to ash, killing that person just leaves you with the body of an undead creature. If you were to cast Revivify immediately you'd just be bringing a vampire back to life. Their undead status can't be cured with anything short of a 9th level spell or DM hand-waving.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I hope you are wrong...lol.
Looks like we are fooked.
~Mad
Yes. Once you destroy it, it's the corpse of a humanoid, not the corpse of a zombie.