Ok, so this all makes sense to me, but I was hoping to have others weigh in and possibly even get some official feedback on my thoughts. Keep in mind that this all pertains to Adventurers League's rule set.
So the feat that this pertains to is the Tavern Brawler feat in PHB pg 170.
"You are proficient with improvised weapons and unarmed strikes." - among other things.
Basically, can your shield be an improvised weapon. If so, does it count as a weapon, a shield, or both depending on how it is used?
If you are a Fighter, or a Paladin, and you take this feat could it apply to your shield? Essentially making your shield a 1d4 bludgeoning weapon.
If "yes", then, as a Fighter (or Paladin) at, or above, 5th level you would have two attacks and a bonus attack when wielding sword and shield. Would this nullify the Dueling fighting style bonus (+2 damage while wielding one weapon)? As it's not a second weapon, it's a shield.
This would lead to follow that Two-Weapon Fighting style for Fighters would apply to the shield's damage as well.
Also, if you also took the Dual Wielder feat in PHB on pg 165 would you gain the +1 AC bonus that this grants? despite the shield not actually being a weapon?
Finally, the idea I had which lead to all of these questions is that it would make sense if you had a Fighter or a Paladin to take the Tavern Brawler feat and choose for your fighting style either Defense or Two-Weapon Fighting and equip a shield. Giving you either +3 AC and a bonus attack at 1d4 or +2 AC and a bonus attack at 1d4 +ability mod (both stats include the base +2 shield AC). Both options giving your Fighter (Paladin) larger bonuses than simply taking the Dueling fighting style and using a shield.
Lastly, on a variant human the bonus ability point granted by the Tavern Brawler feat can be doubled by one of the other feats that likewise add an ability point at 4th level and avoid sacrificing their +2 ability score at that level as well as gain access to the above mentioned benefits and another feat.
Does any of that actually make sense?
Please help me out before I waste my dungeon master's time. lol. Thanks.
Two-Weapon Fighting and Dueling require the use of a Weapon. That is an item on the weapon table. Using your shield as an improvised weapon doesn't change it into a weapon, even if you are proficient in it.
Similar hangups : Booming Blade: requires a weapon component. Eldritch knight/Blade pact warlocks can attune to WEAPONS and send them to a demiplane. Just because you picked up a halfling and hit another halfling with him, doesn't mean you can make him your pact weapon.
As for variant human: Yes, you can double up with many feats (like resilient, observant...) and get +2 to one stat and +1 to another. This will not hurt anything. Compare whatever stat bonus combo you get to another race. If you went +2 str +1 con for example, you could have been a dwarf and got +2 str +2 Con, and poison resist, and darkvision. Variant human is really powerful because the bonus feat is equivalent or better than a to +2 ASI. using it to only get a +1 ASI and a nominal bonus you may or may not use isn't a great call.
If "yes", then, as a Fighter (or Paladin) at, or above, 5th level you would have two attacks and two bonus attacks when wielding sword and shield. Would this nullify the Dueling fighting style bonus (+2 damage while wielding one weapon)? As it's not a second weapon, it's a shield.
You do not get 2 bonus actions! You get a second attack but you are still only able to have 1 bonus action.
Two-Weapon Fighting and Dueling require the use of a Weapon. That is an item on the weapon table. Using your shield as an improvised weapon doesn't change it into a weapon, even if you are proficient in it.
Fair enough. Thanks for the rapid response.
But you bring up another and possibly more interesting question...
Could said halfling be your pact weapon if he consents to being your weapon before hand? He'd be a pact weapon while simultaneously being a weapon you have a pact with...
If "yes", then, as a Fighter (or Paladin) at, or above, 5th level you would have two attacks and two bonus attacks when wielding sword and shield. Would this nullify the Dueling fighting style bonus (+2 damage while wielding one weapon)? As it's not a second weapon, it's a shield.
You do not get 2 bonus actions! You get a second attack but you are still only able to have 1 bonus action.
Two-Weapon Fighting and Dueling require the use of a Weapon. That is an item on the weapon table. Using your shield as an improvised weapon doesn't change it into a weapon, even if you are proficient in it.
Fair enough. Thanks for the rapid response.
But you bring up another and possibly more interesting question...
Could said halfling be your pact weapon if he consents to being your weapon before hand? He'd be a pact weapon while simultaneously being a weapon you have a pact with...
Thanks again!
Best Chance would be if you true polymorphed him into a weapon, then dispelled him later. Nothing on Pact weapon mentions that it stops being a pact weapon after the fact. Just the limitation on MAKING the pact.
Don't bother taking Tavern Brawler, it just adds Proficiency Bonus to the attack. Also it's super easy to get proficiency since you can argue that you're using the Shield like a club. You are literally clubbing them with the rim of the shield. So you should get the Proficiency Bonus to the attack anyways!
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
So. After reading the Sage Advice a few times.
No Feats, Duelist
Your main hand gets Duelist. The shield does not because it is a "weapon" in the moment you use it to attack, but isn't a weapon when your main weapon attacks.
No Feats Two Weapon Fighting
Your main hands attacks normally as an Action. The shield can't attack as Bonus Action because it's not "light"
Dual Wielder & Two Weapon Fighting
Your main hands attacks normally as an Action. The shield attacks as Bonus Action and gets your Str Bonus to damage because, it's a "weapon" during the attack and Dual Wielder lets you attack with a non-light weapon.
You don't get +1 AC from Dual Wielder because it's not a "weapon" except in the moment you attack with it.
Your main hands attacks normally as an Action. The shield attacks as Bonus Action and gets your Str Bonus to damage because, it's a "weapon" during the attack and Dual Wielder lets you attack with a non-light weapon.
You can't TWF with a shield, even with the Dual Wielder feat. It's simply not a weapon. There is never a circumstance where a shield can be used whenever the rules call for a weapon.
You can't TWF with a shield, even with the Dual Wielder feat. It's simply not a weapon. There is never a circumstance where a shield can be used whenever the rules call for a weapon.
InquistiveCoder, when did you start citing the Twitter for rules clarifications? I've seen you post many times they don't count until it's put into a compendium.
The question they are answering is do you get a +3 to your AC instead of +2 because it's an improvised weapon. That answer is no, which is the same I cited above. I answered that because you don't get the +1 to AC because a shield isn't a melee weapon it's armor.
The only rule Dual Wielder lets you ignore so you can Two Weapon Fighting is because it removes the "light" restriction.
@dpnorton "Must I doff a shield to use it as an improvised weapon?"
If you can attack with a shield when you aren't wielding a weapon as an improvised weapon, then it should be duel-wield-able the shield assuming you can ignore the "light" penalty (improvised weapons aren't light).
InquistiveCoder, when did you start citing the Twitter for rules clarifications? I've seen you post many times they don't count until it's put into a compendium.
What I've said is that Mike Mearls's tweets aren't official rulings. People cite him frequently because sageadvice.eu includes his tweets in searches, which is handy when you're trying to find out about the future of the Revised Ranger, but really bad when you're trying to find rules answers.
Jeremy's rulings are official. It says so right in Sage Advice:
Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. One exception: the game’s lead rules developer, Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford on Twitter), can make official rulings and does so in this document and on Twitter
The question they are answering is do you get a +3 to your AC instead of +2 because it's an improvised weapon. That answer is no, which is the same I cited above. I answered that because you don't get the +1 to AC because a shield isn't a melee weapon it's armor.
The only rule Dual Wielder lets you ignore so you can Two Weapon Fighting is because it removes the "light" restriction.
@dpnorton "Must I doff a shield to use it as an improvised weapon?"
If you can attack with a shield when you aren't wielding a weapon as an improvised weapon, then it should be duel-wield-able the shield assuming you can ignore the "light" penalty (improvised weapons aren't light).
Needless to say it's pointless to do as the cost/benefits ratio is awful.
The Two-Weapon Fighting rules says you need melee weapons. The only things the game considers to be melee weapons are either listed in the Weapons table of the Basic Rules/Player's Handbook in one of the Melee Weapon tables, or is explicitly called a melee weapon (such as the Yklwa weapon from Tomb of Annihilation.) Nothing else is a melee weapon.
Besides that, the whole reason they're called improvised weapons is that they're not weapons. The DM can rule that a specific improvised weapon is close enough to the real thing to treat it the same (e.g. a chair leg serving as a club), but that only applies on a case-by-case basis. You can't cast Magic Weapon on a shield, or use the Eldritch Knight's Weapon Bond on one either.
Two-Weapon Fighting and Dueling require the use of a Weapon. That is an item on the weapon table. Using your shield as an improvised weapon doesn't change it into a weapon, even if you are proficient in it.
Similar hangups : Booming Blade: requires a weapon component. Eldritch knight/Blade pact warlocks can attune to WEAPONS and send them to a demiplane. Just because you picked up a halfling and hit another halfling with him, doesn't mean you can make him your pact weapon.
As for variant human: Yes, you can double up with many feats (like resilient, observant...) and get +2 to one stat and +1 to another. This will not hurt anything. Compare whatever stat bonus combo you get to another race. If you went +2 str +1 con for example, you could have been a dwarf and got +2 str +2 Con, and poison resist, and darkvision. Variant human is really powerful because the bonus feat is equivalent or better than a to +2 ASI. using it to only get a +1 ASI and a nominal bonus you may or may not use isn't a great call.
Pretty sure halfling pact weapons are now canon in my campaign
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
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Ok, so this all makes sense to me, but I was hoping to have others weigh in and possibly even get some official feedback on my thoughts. Keep in mind that this all pertains to Adventurers League's rule set.
So the feat that this pertains to is the Tavern Brawler feat in PHB pg 170.
"You are proficient with improvised weapons and unarmed strikes." - among other things.
Basically, can your shield be an improvised weapon. If so, does it count as a weapon, a shield, or both depending on how it is used?
If you are a Fighter, or a Paladin, and you take this feat could it apply to your shield? Essentially making your shield a 1d4 bludgeoning weapon.
If "yes", then, as a Fighter (or Paladin) at, or above, 5th level you would have two attacks and a bonus attack when wielding sword and shield. Would this nullify the Dueling fighting style bonus (+2 damage while wielding one weapon)? As it's not a second weapon, it's a shield.
This would lead to follow that Two-Weapon Fighting style for Fighters would apply to the shield's damage as well.
Also, if you also took the Dual Wielder feat in PHB on pg 165 would you gain the +1 AC bonus that this grants? despite the shield not actually being a weapon?
Finally, the idea I had which lead to all of these questions is that it would make sense if you had a Fighter or a Paladin to take the Tavern Brawler feat and choose for your fighting style either Defense or Two-Weapon Fighting and equip a shield. Giving you either +3 AC and a bonus attack at 1d4 or +2 AC and a bonus attack at 1d4 +ability mod (both stats include the base +2 shield AC). Both options giving your Fighter (Paladin) larger bonuses than simply taking the Dueling fighting style and using a shield.
Lastly, on a variant human the bonus ability point granted by the Tavern Brawler feat can be doubled by one of the other feats that likewise add an ability point at 4th level and avoid sacrificing their +2 ability score at that level as well as gain access to the above mentioned benefits and another feat.
Does any of that actually make sense?
Please help me out before I waste my dungeon master's time. lol. Thanks.
Two-Weapon Fighting and Dueling require the use of a Weapon. That is an item on the weapon table. Using your shield as an improvised weapon doesn't change it into a weapon, even if you are proficient in it.
Similar hangups : Booming Blade: requires a weapon component. Eldritch knight/Blade pact warlocks can attune to WEAPONS and send them to a demiplane. Just because you picked up a halfling and hit another halfling with him, doesn't mean you can make him your pact weapon.
As for variant human: Yes, you can double up with many feats (like resilient, observant...) and get +2 to one stat and +1 to another. This will not hurt anything. Compare whatever stat bonus combo you get to another race. If you went +2 str +1 con for example, you could have been a dwarf and got +2 str +2 Con, and poison resist, and darkvision. Variant human is really powerful because the bonus feat is equivalent or better than a to +2 ASI. using it to only get a +1 ASI and a nominal bonus you may or may not use isn't a great call.
Fair enough. Thanks for the rapid response.
But you bring up another and possibly more interesting question...
Could said halfling be your pact weapon if he consents to being your weapon before hand? He'd be a pact weapon while simultaneously being a weapon you have a pact with...
Thanks again!
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/a-shield-isnt-a-weapon/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/02/12/shield-bash/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/13/if-a-magic-shield-1-is-used-like-a-improvised-weapon-will-add-the-1-to-the-attack-and-damage-rolls/
Also, you're WAAAAY over thinking this.
Don't bother taking Tavern Brawler, it just adds Proficiency Bonus to the attack. Also it's super easy to get proficiency since you can argue that you're using the Shield like a club. You are literally clubbing them with the rim of the shield. So you should get the Proficiency Bonus to the attack anyways!
Read Improved Weapons here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/equipment#ImprovisedWeapons
So. After reading the Sage Advice a few times.
Your main hand gets Duelist. The shield does not because it is a "weapon" in the moment you use it to attack, but isn't a weapon when your main weapon attacks.
Your main hands attacks normally as an Action. The shield can't attack as Bonus Action because it's not "light"
Your main hands attacks normally as an Action. The shield attacks as Bonus Action and gets your Str Bonus to damage because, it's a "weapon" during the attack and Dual Wielder lets you attack with a non-light weapon.
You don't get +1 AC from Dual Wielder because it's not a "weapon" except in the moment you attack with it.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
If you can attack with a shield when you aren't wielding a weapon as an improvised weapon, then it should be duel-wield-able the shield assuming you can ignore the "light" penalty (improvised weapons aren't light).
Two Weapon Fighting doesn't cite it can't work with improvised weapon.
Needless to say it's pointless to do as the cost/benefits ratio is awful.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.