No. Your bonus action command can be any action (like Help), but your attack-sub command can only be to Attack/Maul. And it only Dodges on its own when NOT commanded.
No, the bonus action command cannot simply be any old command. If Attack were intended, there would be no mention of the action in the creature's stat block. The only actions listed are all attacks. It would just say so.
“That action can be one in its stat block or some other action.”
Thats the sameish language used in MM Intro, DMG, and PHB Chapter 9, and trivially true: monsters and players generally can take the special actions on their sheet or stat block, or one of the PHB Chapter 9 actions available to all creatures. DO we need to actually talk about what it looks like when a monster Attacks with the Maul natural weapon, vs. takes the special Maul action? Because that’s a thing, not unique to this Primal Beast, but can be wonky and requires some rule interpretation to fully suss out. Original Ranger's Companion beasts already had to do this, it's no weirder on a Primal Companion too.
“That action can be one in its stat block or some other action.”
Thats the sameish language used in MM Intro, DMG, and PHB Chapter 9, and trivially true: monsters and players generally can take the special actions on their sheet or stat block, or one of the PHB Chapter 9 actions available to all creatures. DO we need to actually talk about what it looks like when a monster Attacks with the Maul natural weapon, vs. takes the special Maul action? Because that’s a thing, not unique to this Primal Beast, but can be wonky and requires some rule interpretation to fully suss out.
It doesn't look different, but the mechanical difference is whether or not Bestial Fury applies.
And it doesn't when commanded via the ranger's bonus action.
So can the PHB beast dodge/disengage and help on the same turn?
Because of Exceptional training, I would say yes. They can still be commanded to act using both the ranger's action and bonus action. So long as the actions chosen are allowed by the respective 3rd and 7th-level features, it's legal.
The original beast dodges on its own turn (which is not the players turn) when you “don’t issue a command.” You can issue it a command with your Action, to Attack, Dash, Disengage, or Help instead. At level 7, you can issue a command using your Bonus in addition to or instead of with your Action IF it hasn’t attacked (but not to attack, just Dash, Disengage, or Help), but you are still “issuing a command.” Thus, you haven’t NOT issued a command, thus, the Beast doesn’t Dodge on its own.
The only way the original beast dodges, is if you leave it alone. Dodge is not a command you may issue, or something it can do alongside any command.
But you can order it to Dash with your action, and Dash again with your Bonus.
Or Help with your action, and Help someone else with your bonus.
I'm still on the fence about the beast taking two action, but if I convince myself or am convinced by someone that that is how it works I do understand.
However, the PHB beast DOES act on the ranger's turn. The two share a turn that is interweaved. Just like a controlled mount, pulled chariots and carts, and monsters of the same kind in initiative.
The PHB Ranger's Companion "takes its turn on your initiative." You can argue that RAI, that means "on your turn," but that isn't what it says RAW, it would be immediately before or immediately after your turn, just like if two players both rolled the same initiative number. The TCE Primal Companion instead "acts during your turn." That is different, the Primal Companion explicitly shares your turn, doesn't follow it.
As I described above, the Ranger's Companion Dodges if you issue no commands. If you issue a command with your Action (Attack, Dash, Help, or Disengage), or with your Bonus Action (Dash, Help, or Disengage), or with your Action AND you Bonus Action, it does not Dodge.
For the Primal Companion, it too Dodges if you issue no commands. But unlike the Ranger's Companion which can't be commanded to Dodge, Dodgeis one of the general actions you can command it to take with your Bonus Action (along with Attack, Dash, Help, Disengage, Hide, [Tooltip Not Found], or the special statblock actions like Maul). Why would you want to order it to Dodge with your Bonus Action, if it can already do that on its own without you wasting that Bonus? Because you can also order it to Attack or Maul (but not to do anything else like Dash, Help, Disengage, Hide, [Tooltip Not Found] or Dodge) by giving up one of your attacks during your own Attack action. That means that the Primal Companion can Dodge (Bonus Action) + Attack (sacrifice one of your own attacks), which is something that the Ranger's Companion was unable to do. But you still can't Dodge + Help, because both of those are actions that the Primal Companion can only take when ordered with your Bonus Action, and you only have one Bonus Action with which to issue that kind of command. And you can't have it auto-Dodge (no action) + Attack (sacrifice one of your own attacks, or use a Bonus Action), because it only auto- Dodges when not issued any other commands.
I think that comparing Primal Companion with Ranger's Companion introduces more confusion than it solves. Reading each of them entirely separately is more straightforward.
The primal companion says "...but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action." So only a bonus action command would stop it from auto dodging, by (silly) RAW.
By RAW the PHB ranger "commands" the beast to move, so it doesn't auto dodge if it moves, only if it does absolutely nothing else but stand there.
And I know there is a tweet from JC like in the middle of the night from 7 years ago, and people think the ranger and PHB beast take separate turns, but they don't, they take their turn together. Proof? Below:
1. "Beginning at 7th level, on any of your turns when your beast companion doesn’t attack, you can use a bonus action to command the beast to take the Dash, Disengage, or Help action on its turn." How can the beast attack on your turn if the turns are separate? Answer is, they are the same turn.
2. "The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time." Here is RAW counterpoint against the statement that every creatures acts on its own turn.
3. "Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 feet of you or dismount. Doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to mount a horse. Therefore, you can’t mount it if you don’t have 15 feet of movement left or if your speed is 0." ...and... "A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it." More precedent within the game that creatures can act at the same time on the same turn.
The primal companion says "...but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action." So only a bonus action command would stop it from auto dodging, by (silly) RAW.
That's a good point, and I revise my analysis. Primal Companion will auto-dodge if the only command you issue it is by sacrificing an attack during your own Attack action, so it can Dodge + Attack/Maul. Great catch! Still can't Dodge+Help though.
And I know there is a tweet from JC like in the middle of the night from 7 years ago, and people think the ranger and PHB beast take separate turns, but they don't, they take their turn together. Proof? Below:
1. "Beginning at 7th level, on any of your turns when your beast companion doesn’t attack, you can use a bonus action to command the beast to take the Dash, Disengage, or Help action on its turn." How can the beast attack on your turn if the turns are separate? Answer is, they are the same turn.
2. "The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time." Here is RAW counterpoint against the statement that every creatures acts on its own turn.
3. "Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 feet of you or dismount. Doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to mount a horse. Therefore, you can’t mount it if you don’t have 15 feet of movement left or if your speed is 0." ...and... "A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it." More precedent within the game that creatures can act at the same time on the same turn.
Again, all true. I agree that RAI, the Ranger's Companion was probably meant to act on your turn. RAI, a controlled mount is definitely meant to act on your turn. But other abilities which use the "share your initiative count" language have also explicitly required the creature to take its own turn (see e.g. Summon Aberration, which "shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours"). When we try to find what language a Ranger's Companion most closely resembles, it is Summon Aberration, not Primal Companion. Also, Ranger's Companion says "it's turn," not "your turn," again reinforcing that it's a seperate turn. But like you say, that contradicts other language below within Ranger's Companion, and probably was merely a result of poor editing and playtesting that never got fixed or errata'd, so I'm fine with accepting that a Ranger's Companion should share your Ranger's turn.
People complain about the survivability of the subclass all the time, but I think the real reason this subclass is disliked so much (and the ranger class in general) is SO MUCH of it is, at best, unclear, and at worst, open to DM interpretation, which SO MANY players seem to hate. They are really a very fun and elegant class and subclass, and they are built very well for TTRPG play, however, they aren't not so great for video game style quantifying. Ergo, people hate it.
The Beast Master is pretty good as a scout! Also, can be pretty good as a zoner/tank! But it’s features really don’t boost DPR much, which is not what people want from Ranger subclasses. Also, later pets from other subclasses are BETTER scouts and BETTER tanks, so that hurt too. But the Primal Companion does a lot to bring it back up to par with Steel Defender in many ways, though they still have many mechanical differences. It’s certainly not “bad” now, but there’s not as much multiclass synergy or exploits with a Ramger’s Companion or even Primal Companion as you might find with a Steel Defender, Wildfire Spirit, Shadow, Paladin Steed, or even Fungal Zombie.
The Beast Master is pretty good as a scout! Also, can be pretty good as a zoner/tank! But it’s features really don’t boost DPR much, which is not what people want from Ranger subclasses. Also, later pets from other subclasses are BETTER scouts and BETTER tanks, so that hurt too. But the Primal Companion does a lot to bring it back up to par with Steel Defender in many ways, though they still have many mechanical differences. It’s certainly not “bad” now, but there’s not as much multiclass synergy or exploits with a Ramger’s Companion or even Primal Companion as you might find with a Steel Defender, Wildfire Spirit, Shadow, Paladin Steed, or even Fungal Zombie.
People love the steel defender thing. And I get it. The difference for me is the steel defender is required for that artificer subclass to put out the damage with other martials where the beasts are more of an addon to the ranger's damage. The boost in damage for the ranger's subclass from their level three abilities, over three rounds or so, is somewhere in the 3-5 range per round range. The PHB beast master adds that same damage through attacks of opportunity. The hunter and gloomstalker are at the top end of that per round damage bump, with the beast master (PHB version) being right in the middle of the pack (pun intended). The other "pet" or "buddy" subclasses, spells, or abilities are all great, but none of them have a combined utility and combat potential that I see in either beast ranger subclass.
Why not let it auto dodge and help? Thats two actions too. Just like letting it take two attack actions.
Funnily enough, the Rangers Companion Beastmaster CAN do that (at 7th level), but the Primal Companion Beastmaster cant. 🤣edit: I tried to edit/delete this but can’t? This is wrong ^dndbeyond.com forum tags
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No, the bonus action command cannot simply be any old command. If Attack were intended, there would be no mention of the action in the creature's stat block. The only actions listed are all attacks. It would just say so.
What are you on about?
“That action can be one in its stat block or some other action.”
Thats the sameish language used in MM Intro, DMG, and PHB Chapter 9, and trivially true: monsters and players generally can take the special actions on their sheet or stat block, or one of the PHB Chapter 9 actions available to all creatures. DO we need to actually talk about what it looks like when a monster Attacks with the Maul natural weapon, vs. takes the special Maul action? Because that’s a thing, not unique to this Primal Beast, but can be wonky and requires some rule interpretation to fully suss out. Original Ranger's Companion beasts already had to do this, it's no weirder on a Primal Companion too.
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So can the PHB beast dodge/disengage and help on the same turn?
No, I was wrong, sorry. Neither version may do so.
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It doesn't look different, but the mechanical difference is whether or not Bestial Fury applies.
And it doesn't when commanded via the ranger's bonus action.
Because of Exceptional training, I would say yes. They can still be commanded to act using both the ranger's action and bonus action. So long as the actions chosen are allowed by the respective 3rd and 7th-level features, it's legal.
The original beast dodges on its own turn (which is not the players turn) when you “don’t issue a command.” You can issue it a command with your Action, to Attack, Dash, Disengage, or Help instead. At level 7, you can issue a command using your Bonus in addition to or instead of with your Action IF it hasn’t attacked (but not to attack, just Dash, Disengage, or Help), but you are still “issuing a command.” Thus, you haven’t NOT issued a command, thus, the Beast doesn’t Dodge on its own.
The only way the original beast dodges, is if you leave it alone. Dodge is not a command you may issue, or something it can do alongside any command.
But you can order it to Dash with your action, and Dash again with your Bonus.
Or Help with your action, and Help someone else with your bonus.
Etc... you follow?
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I'm still on the fence about the beast taking two action, but if I convince myself or am convinced by someone that that is how it works I do understand.
However, the PHB beast DOES act on the ranger's turn. The two share a turn that is interweaved. Just like a controlled mount, pulled chariots and carts, and monsters of the same kind in initiative.
But some of you are saying the Tasha's primal beast can auto doge and attack on the same turn if using replacing one of the ranger's attacks, yes?
The PHB Ranger's Companion "takes its turn on your initiative." You can argue that RAI, that means "on your turn," but that isn't what it says RAW, it would be immediately before or immediately after your turn, just like if two players both rolled the same initiative number. The TCE Primal Companion instead "acts during your turn." That is different, the Primal Companion explicitly shares your turn, doesn't follow it.
As I described above, the Ranger's Companion Dodges if you issue no commands. If you issue a command with your Action (Attack, Dash, Help, or Disengage), or with your Bonus Action (Dash, Help, or Disengage), or with your Action AND you Bonus Action, it does not Dodge.
For the Primal Companion, it too Dodges if you issue no commands. But unlike the Ranger's Companion which can't be commanded to Dodge, Dodge is one of the general actions you can command it to take with your Bonus Action (along with Attack, Dash, Help, Disengage, Hide, [Tooltip Not Found], or the special statblock actions like Maul). Why would you want to order it to Dodge with your Bonus Action, if it can already do that on its own without you wasting that Bonus? Because you can also order it to Attack or Maul (but not to do anything else like Dash, Help, Disengage, Hide, [Tooltip Not Found] or Dodge) by giving up one of your attacks during your own Attack action. That means that the Primal Companion can Dodge (Bonus Action) + Attack (sacrifice one of your own attacks), which is something that the Ranger's Companion was unable to do. But you still can't Dodge + Help, because both of those are actions that the Primal Companion can only take when ordered with your Bonus Action, and you only have one Bonus Action with which to issue that kind of command. And you can't have it auto-Dodge (no action) + Attack (sacrifice one of your own attacks, or use a Bonus Action), because it only auto- Dodges when not issued any other commands.
I think that comparing Primal Companion with Ranger's Companion introduces more confusion than it solves. Reading each of them entirely separately is more straightforward.
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The primal companion says "...but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action." So only a bonus action command would stop it from auto dodging, by (silly) RAW.
By RAW the PHB ranger "commands" the beast to move, so it doesn't auto dodge if it moves, only if it does absolutely nothing else but stand there.
And I know there is a tweet from JC like in the middle of the night from 7 years ago, and people think the ranger and PHB beast take separate turns, but they don't, they take their turn together. Proof? Below:
1. "Beginning at 7th level, on any of your turns when your beast companion doesn’t attack, you can use a bonus action to command the beast to take the Dash, Disengage, or Help action on its turn." How can the beast attack on your turn if the turns are separate? Answer is, they are the same turn.
2. "The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time." Here is RAW counterpoint against the statement that every creatures acts on its own turn.
3. "Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 feet of you or dismount. Doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to mount a horse. Therefore, you can’t mount it if you don’t have 15 feet of movement left or if your speed is 0." ...and... "A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it." More precedent within the game that creatures can act at the same time on the same turn.
That's a good point, and I revise my analysis. Primal Companion will auto-dodge if the only command you issue it is by sacrificing an attack during your own Attack action, so it can Dodge + Attack/Maul. Great catch! Still can't Dodge+Help though.
Yes, true.
Again, all true. I agree that RAI, the Ranger's Companion was probably meant to act on your turn. RAI, a controlled mount is definitely meant to act on your turn. But other abilities which use the "share your initiative count" language have also explicitly required the creature to take its own turn (see e.g. Summon Aberration, which "shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours"). When we try to find what language a Ranger's Companion most closely resembles, it is Summon Aberration, not Primal Companion. Also, Ranger's Companion says "it's turn," not "your turn," again reinforcing that it's a seperate turn. But like you say, that contradicts other language below within Ranger's Companion, and probably was merely a result of poor editing and playtesting that never got fixed or errata'd, so I'm fine with accepting that a Ranger's Companion should share your Ranger's turn.
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People complain about the survivability of the subclass all the time, but I think the real reason this subclass is disliked so much (and the ranger class in general) is SO MUCH of it is, at best, unclear, and at worst, open to DM interpretation, which SO MANY players seem to hate. They are really a very fun and elegant class and subclass, and they are built very well for TTRPG play, however, they aren't not so great for video game style quantifying. Ergo, people hate it.
The Beast Master is pretty good as a scout! Also, can be pretty good as a zoner/tank! But it’s features really don’t boost DPR much, which is not what people want from Ranger subclasses. Also, later pets from other subclasses are BETTER scouts and BETTER tanks, so that hurt too. But the Primal Companion does a lot to bring it back up to par with Steel Defender in many ways, though they still have many mechanical differences. It’s certainly not “bad” now, but there’s not as much multiclass synergy or exploits with a Ramger’s Companion or even Primal Companion as you might find with a Steel Defender, Wildfire Spirit, Shadow, Paladin Steed, or even Fungal Zombie.
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Wait. Are you guys indicating that the primal companion can take more than one action in a single turn?
Hello, welcome to the thread! Please kindly read the last three pages before proceeding further :)
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People love the steel defender thing. And I get it. The difference for me is the steel defender is required for that artificer subclass to put out the damage with other martials where the beasts are more of an addon to the ranger's damage. The boost in damage for the ranger's subclass from their level three abilities, over three rounds or so, is somewhere in the 3-5 range per round range. The PHB beast master adds that same damage through attacks of opportunity. The hunter and gloomstalker are at the top end of that per round damage bump, with the beast master (PHB version) being right in the middle of the pack (pun intended). The other "pet" or "buddy" subclasses, spells, or abilities are all great, but none of them have a combined utility and combat potential that I see in either beast ranger subclass.
Yes. Some folks here are suggesting that. Some say nope. I'm on the fence.