I've looked around all kinds of forums and can't find an answer concerning this interaction. In the case that a PC is in some way multi-classed or dual wielding etc, in a situation where they would normally be allowed to take an attack with a bonus action after taking the "Attack" action on their turn according to RAW. Would then, the subsequent actions taken on turns after casting Witchbolt to be able to deal additional damage, be classed as an Attack action (therefore allowing for bonus action attacks to be taken) or is this action specific to the spell and in same way unaffiliated with attacking
If this were the case it could allow for a far more versatile and fun use of Witchbolt which currently lacks in almost all areas compared to other spells due to it needing an action to maintain.
Thanks in advance for any responses, thought I'm not sure anyone could give me a definitive answer.
The action taken during the 2nd-10th rounds of witch bolt is a special action, not a standard action (like attack, cast a spell, dash, etc.). A way to tell that this is not an "Attack Action" is to look at the definitions. An "Attack Action" requires you to make one or more "Attacks". "Making an Attack" requires an attack roll with the d20. The action on Witch bolt does not require an attack roll with a d20 on those turns, so you aren't making an attack, so you aren't taking the "attack action"
There are lots of special or unique actions in the game; many class abilities are actions that don't fall under the standard, for example, the Archfey Warlocks Fey Presence and Dark Delirium abilities.
Witch Bolt is a perfectly good spell for people of 1st or 2nd level. It does a respectable amount of damage at those levels and you have so few spell slots that a caster has few better options.
Witch Bolt is a perfectly good spell for people of 1st or 2nd level. It does a respectable amount of damage at those levels and you have so few spell slots that a caster has few better options.
After that, it sucks.
It has an average damage of 6.5 per turn, same as toll the dead (a cantrip). We can be generous and assume an average of 2 turns before the target moves, or your concentration breaks, or you need your action for anything else for an average of 13 damage per slot use. That makes only the following level 1 spells a better choice for damage per slot (and per turn):
The target has to move outside of the 30 ft range, so indoors it might be possible to keep them in range - also, the target creature might not know about the range limit of the spell so may well move towards the caster to try and stop it.
It is guaranteed damage on subsequent turns instead of you having to cast another spell.
And I wouldn't include Jim's Magic Missile in any calculation since it is from Acquisitions Incorporated - a book full of silly overpowered things.
The target has to move outside of the 30 ft range, so indoors it might be possible to keep them in range - also, the target creature might not know about the range limit of the spell so may well move towards the caster to try and stop it.
It is guaranteed damage on subsequent turns instead of you having to cast another spell.
And I wouldn't include Jim's Magic Missile in any calculation since it is from Acquisitions Incorporated - a book full of silly overpowered things.
True, but wether the target moves away to try to escape or toward you to retaliate, the odds of using it more than once are not great, and more than twice extremely low. The best situation to use it is if the target can't move out of range or reach you (and if that is the case, you can definitely win with cantrips).
That still barely makes it better than a cantrip each turn.
I wouldn't say AI is overpowered (only the spells, race, and backgrounds can be chosen by players, DM controls everything else), but I would agree it is silly.
Witch Bolt is a perfectly good spell for people of 1st or 2nd level. It does a respectable amount of damage at those levels and you have so few spell slots that a caster has few better options.
After that, it sucks.
It has an average damage of 6.5 per turn, same as toll the dead (a cantrip). We can be generous and assume an average of 2 turns before the target moves, or your concentration breaks, or you need your action for anything else for an average of 13 damage per slot use. That makes only the following level 1 spells a better choice for damage per slot (and per turn):
Of course 11/16 level 1 spells (for the classes that can learn witch bolt) do more than 6.5 damage to have higher damage per turn.
Sorry but you are not accounting for Saving Throws.
And in many situations you should be able to get 3-4 rounds of damage. At low levels that should be enough to kill the target. This spell is clearly designed for multiple rounds, if you are so incompetent that you only get 1 or 2 rounds, then yes, the spell is never worth it. I have used it for 5 rounds. This is for a party member, not a caster by themselves.
Toll the Dead has a Save negates 6.5 damage a round, but that is going to be about 3 pts a round after accounting for made saves.
Witch bolt has a single to hit for an average of 6.5 damage every round. Which at 1st and 2nd level is MORE likely to succeed than a failed save and once you make that single to hit, all you got to do is stay close. Works great if your fighter is hitting him every round, or he is inside a building.
Witch Bolt is a great spell at first or 2nd level. Far better than any cantrip.
After that, it starts to suck pretty fast as 1) AC's go up, 2) movement goes up, and other spells start doing real damage. Perhaps a Warlock MIGHT still like it at 3rd level when it gets automatically upcast for +1d12 damage the first round. As a Warlock with just 2 spell slots, it still is useful. But no other reasonable person wants it once you get 2nd level spells.
Even warlocks no longer want it by the time they hit 4th level because the monsters start to be more likely to escape the 30 ft. limit, unless you have a grappler in the party.
While perhaps not great for the "Meta", Witchbolt can be Twined or Distant.
Assuming the Action triggers automatic damage for both targets every round, that becomes interesting.
With Distant, the target would usually need to flee combat to escape, which may not be practical in confined spaces.
With Hexblade's Curse, you can add your proficiency bonus to each damage roll. (1d12+4 is the same average damage as Magic Missile, every round.)
With Relentless Hex, you can teleport 30ft to the target as a Bonus Action, which, when combined with Distant, is pretty good for maintaining distance.
Not necessarily great damage compared to other options, especially at higher levels, but against a caster, it's a reliable way to force concentration checks round after round.
Just realized how potent Hexblade's Curse is with Magic Missile...
At 1st level, that [3x] 1d4+3 (avg 16.5)
At 17th level, [3x] 1d4+7 (avg 28.5)
At 17th level, upcast to 9th level [11x] 1d4+7 (avg 104.5 guaranteed)
At 17th level with an Imbued Wood focus and Empowered Evocation, upcast to 9th level [11x] 1d4+1+6+1+5 (avg 170.5 guaranteed)
Witch Bolt is a perfectly good spell for people of 1st or 2nd level. It does a respectable amount of damage at those levels and you have so few spell slots that a caster has few better options.
After that, it sucks.
It has an average damage of 6.5 per turn, same as toll the dead (a cantrip). We can be generous and assume an average of 2 turns before the target moves, or your concentration breaks, or you need your action for anything else for an average of 13 damage per slot use. That makes only the following level 1 spells a better choice for damage per slot (and per turn):
Of course 11/16 level 1 spells (for the classes that can learn witch bolt) do more than 6.5 damage to have higher damage per turn.
Sorry but you are not accounting for Saving Throws.
And in many situations you should be able to get 3-4 rounds of damage. At low levels that should be enough to kill the target. This spell is clearly designed for multiple rounds, if you are so incompetent that you only get 1 or 2 rounds, then yes, the spell is never worth it. I have used it for 5 rounds. This is for a party member, not a caster by themselves.
Toll the Dead has a Save negates 6.5 damage a round, but that is going to be about 3 pts a round after accounting for made saves.
Witch bolt has a single to hit for an average of 6.5 damage every round. Which at 1st and 2nd level is MORE likely to succeed than a failed save and once you make that single to hit, all you got to do is stay close. Works great if your fighter is hitting him every round, or he is inside a building.
I mean, the same logic applies to witch bolt's attack roll. The odds of you hitting an attack roll on 11 AC are the same as a creature with +0 was save succeeding the save. Player competency has nothing to do with how long the spell will last, it is mostly situational and up to DM. In some situations the spell will last 3-4 turns, in most 2 is lucky. I think my average of 2 is fair. In every combat I've been a part of, most casters got within 30 feet of enemies as rarely as they could to avoid damage and concentrated on more beneficial spells (like buffs, debuffs, or area denial).
I did a quick assessment of 30 <CR1 cr creatures and 24 had higher than 11 AC and 6 had higher than +0 Wis save.
So you have a higher chance of wasting a spell slot than of hitting with the cantrip for same average damage. Sure you only have to hit once, but you have lower odds to hit, and the way average damage works, that actually makes witch bolt do less damage than toll the dead on average (while using limited resources). And that is assuming a favorable situation for it where the target can't get further than 30 feet from you or make you lose concentration (all of which, the cantrip does not need).
It isn't a completely useless spell, it is just out classed by almost every other spell in its level (and a few cantrips) in a majority of situations.
Also worth note, Cleric (Tempest Domain) will maximize damage for Witch bolt which makes it equivalent to an automatic 3d6 every round, which, if a normal spell attack has a 50% chance of missing, makes it equivalent to a 6d6 spell attack, every round.
I think I'll try a Storm Sorcerer/Tempest Cleric next...
As a wild magic sorcerer? Also use the Feywild Shard in conjuncture with a meta Magic to get that free roll on the wild magic surge. 2% chance to get 8 more magic missile darts got even more damage...
Also worth note, Cleric (Tempest Domain) will maximize damage for Witch bolt which makes it equivalent to an automatic 3d6 every round, which, if a normal spell attack has a 50% chance of missing, makes it equivalent to a 6d6 spell attack, every round.
I think I'll try a Storm Sorcerer/Tempest Cleric next...
I don't follow this math at all, especially since witch bolt is a d12. Also the cleric can only maximize the damage once per short rest.
So it is equivalent to 12 + 1d12 every following turn (assuming the target could not move or break your concentration).
Except that a warlock only gets 5th level spell slots, so you'd have to multi class to get hex and a 9th level magic missile.
Yes they get 6/7/8/9 level spells via that weird class feature. They still stop at 5th level spell slots though
Sure, what's the harm in a 1 level dip?
Giving a sorcerer 1 level of Warlock is pretty common. 17th versus 18th level isn't much of a difference for theory crafting.
Since empowered evocation is a wizard subclass feature, I didn't even realize you were still adding hexblade curse damage. So that would be level 18 to cast a 9th level with those bonuses. Not sure where sorcerer comes into play now...
I don't follow this math at all, especially since witch bolt is a d12. Also the cleric can only maximize the damage once per short rest.
So it is equivalent to 12 + 1d12 every following turn (assuming the target could not move or break your concentration).
Since empowered evocation is a wizard subclass feature, I didn't even realize you were still adding hexblade curse damage. So that would be level 18 to cast a 9th level with those bonuses. Not sure where sorcerer comes into play now...
1) The Maximum result of a 1d12 is 12 damage, while the average result of a 3d6 is 10.5, so for the calculation, a Maximized witchbolt will do more than a spell that does 3d6, on average.
2) You're right. I misread the Channel Divinity ability as lasting for 1 minute, as opposed to only applying to a single roll, so it all falls apart. Whoops.
I've looked around all kinds of forums and can't find an answer concerning this interaction. In the case that a PC is in some way multi-classed or dual wielding etc, in a situation where they would normally be allowed to take an attack with a bonus action after taking the "Attack" action on their turn according to RAW. Would then, the subsequent actions taken on turns after casting Witchbolt to be able to deal additional damage, be classed as an Attack action (therefore allowing for bonus action attacks to be taken) or is this action specific to the spell and in same way unaffiliated with attacking
If this were the case it could allow for a far more versatile and fun use of Witchbolt which currently lacks in almost all areas compared to other spells due to it needing an action to maintain.
Thanks in advance for any responses, thought I'm not sure anyone could give me a definitive answer.
Unfortunately, no. Sustaining Witch Bolt is simply "an Action", not an "Attack" action.
The action taken during the 2nd-10th rounds of witch bolt is a special action, not a standard action (like attack, cast a spell, dash, etc.). A way to tell that this is not an "Attack Action" is to look at the definitions. An "Attack Action" requires you to make one or more "Attacks". "Making an Attack" requires an attack roll with the d20. The action on Witch bolt does not require an attack roll with a d20 on those turns, so you aren't making an attack, so you aren't taking the "attack action"
There are lots of special or unique actions in the game; many class abilities are actions that don't fall under the standard, for example, the Archfey Warlocks Fey Presence and Dark Delirium abilities.
Witch Bolt is a perfectly good spell for people of 1st or 2nd level. It does a respectable amount of damage at those levels and you have so few spell slots that a caster has few better options.
After that, it sucks.
It has an average damage of 6.5 per turn, same as toll the dead (a cantrip). We can be generous and assume an average of 2 turns before the target moves, or your concentration breaks, or you need your action for anything else for an average of 13 damage per slot use. That makes only the following level 1 spells a better choice for damage per slot (and per turn):
Of course 11/16 level 1 spells (for the classes that can learn witch bolt) do more than 6.5 damage to have higher damage per turn.
The target has to move outside of the 30 ft range, so indoors it might be possible to keep them in range - also, the target creature might not know about the range limit of the spell so may well move towards the caster to try and stop it.
It is guaranteed damage on subsequent turns instead of you having to cast another spell.
And I wouldn't include Jim's Magic Missile in any calculation since it is from Acquisitions Incorporated - a book full of silly overpowered things.
True, but wether the target moves away to try to escape or toward you to retaliate, the odds of using it more than once are not great, and more than twice extremely low. The best situation to use it is if the target can't move out of range or reach you (and if that is the case, you can definitely win with cantrips).
That still barely makes it better than a cantrip each turn.
I wouldn't say AI is overpowered (only the spells, race, and backgrounds can be chosen by players, DM controls everything else), but I would agree it is silly.
Sorry but you are not accounting for Saving Throws.
And in many situations you should be able to get 3-4 rounds of damage. At low levels that should be enough to kill the target. This spell is clearly designed for multiple rounds, if you are so incompetent that you only get 1 or 2 rounds, then yes, the spell is never worth it. I have used it for 5 rounds. This is for a party member, not a caster by themselves.
Toll the Dead has a Save negates 6.5 damage a round, but that is going to be about 3 pts a round after accounting for made saves.
Witch bolt has a single to hit for an average of 6.5 damage every round. Which at 1st and 2nd level is MORE likely to succeed than a failed save and once you make that single to hit, all you got to do is stay close. Works great if your fighter is hitting him every round, or he is inside a building.
Witch Bolt is a great spell at first or 2nd level. Far better than any cantrip.
After that, it starts to suck pretty fast as 1) AC's go up, 2) movement goes up, and other spells start doing real damage. Perhaps a Warlock MIGHT still like it at 3rd level when it gets automatically upcast for +1d12 damage the first round. As a Warlock with just 2 spell slots, it still is useful. But no other reasonable person wants it once you get 2nd level spells.
Even warlocks no longer want it by the time they hit 4th level because the monsters start to be more likely to escape the 30 ft. limit, unless you have a grappler in the party.
While perhaps not great for the "Meta", Witchbolt can be Twined or Distant.
Not necessarily great damage compared to other options, especially at higher levels, but against a caster, it's a reliable way to force concentration checks round after round.
Just realized how potent Hexblade's Curse is with Magic Missile...
I mean, the same logic applies to witch bolt's attack roll. The odds of you hitting an attack roll on 11 AC are the same as a creature with +0 was save succeeding the save. Player competency has nothing to do with how long the spell will last, it is mostly situational and up to DM. In some situations the spell will last 3-4 turns, in most 2 is lucky. I think my average of 2 is fair. In every combat I've been a part of, most casters got within 30 feet of enemies as rarely as they could to avoid damage and concentrated on more beneficial spells (like buffs, debuffs, or area denial).
I did a quick assessment of 30 <CR1 cr creatures and 24 had higher than 11 AC and 6 had higher than +0 Wis save.
So you have a higher chance of wasting a spell slot than of hitting with the cantrip for same average damage. Sure you only have to hit once, but you have lower odds to hit, and the way average damage works, that actually makes witch bolt do less damage than toll the dead on average (while using limited resources). And that is assuming a favorable situation for it where the target can't get further than 30 feet from you or make you lose concentration (all of which, the cantrip does not need).
It isn't a completely useless spell, it is just out classed by almost every other spell in its level (and a few cantrips) in a majority of situations.
Also worth note, Cleric (Tempest Domain) will maximize damage for Witch bolt which makes it equivalent to an automatic 3d6 every round, which, if a normal spell attack has a 50% chance of missing, makes it equivalent to a 6d6 spell attack, every round.I think I'll try a Storm Sorcerer/Tempest Cleric next...Misread the Tempest Domain feature. Disregard.
Except that a warlock only gets 5th level spell slots, so you'd have to multi class to get hex and a 9th level magic missile.
Yes they get 6/7/8/9 level spells via that weird class feature. They still stop at 5th level spell slots though
Sure, what's the harm in a 1 level dip?
Giving a sorcerer 1 level of Warlock is pretty common. 17th versus 18th level isn't much of a difference for theory crafting.
As a wild magic sorcerer? Also use the Feywild Shard in conjuncture with a meta Magic to get that free roll on the wild magic surge. 2% chance to get 8 more magic missile darts got even more damage...
I don't follow this math at all, especially since witch bolt is a d12. Also the cleric can only maximize the damage once per short rest.
So it is equivalent to 12 + 1d12 every following turn (assuming the target could not move or break your concentration).
Since empowered evocation is a wizard subclass feature, I didn't even realize you were still adding hexblade curse damage. So that would be level 18 to cast a 9th level with those bonuses. Not sure where sorcerer comes into play now...
1) The Maximum result of a 1d12 is 12 damage, while the average result of a 3d6 is 10.5, so for the calculation, a Maximized witchbolt will do more than a spell that does 3d6, on average.
2) You're right. I misread the Channel Divinity ability as lasting for 1 minute, as opposed to only applying to a single roll, so it all falls apart. Whoops.