Acid is 2d6 acid damage, with no proficiency. Most PCs can do at least 7 damage, with proficiency, with starting gear that doesn't cost 25 gp/use.
Holy Water is identical other than being radiant.
Alchemist's Fire is 1d4 per turn, with no proficiency; typically after 2-4 rounds the creature will be dead or willing to spend an action putting it out.
And that's at first level; by the time 25 gp attacks are an affordable choice, the damage is utterly useless. They are semi-useful against things with weapon immunity, but even then there's usually a better choice. Am I missing something?
Your links/tags are broken, but I'm assuming you are talking about a vial of acid, holy water, and alchemists fire? They are certainly unconventional and don't see a lot of use, and I agree that standard attacks are probably better outside of bypassing resistances. I've had players utilize them in ambushes and traps, and the acid is great as a utility item for damaging doors and obstacles, but they rarely see actual combat use except as a last resort.
Don't forget to add DEX modifiers to weapon damage of ranged attacks (this is RAW and RAI, but often over looked for these items).
Yeah, these items see very little use because of their expense. Acid might be most common for the reason iconarising mentioned (it is also cheaper than alchemist fire).
The price is very often complained about. Keep in mind that via the same spell used to produce holy water, it is also RAW that every community needs to spend 25gp per corpse, simply to properly administer last rights to the deceased. Just how rich do they think peasants are?
I imagine that peasants just don't have lavish funerals then.
Necromancer got to get their corpses somehow, and you can't raise a blessed corpse.
The price is very often complained about. Keep in mind that via the same spell used to produce holy water, it is also RAW that every community needs to spend 25gp per corpse, simply to properly administer last rights to the deceased. Just how rich do they think peasants are?
I imagine that peasants just don't have lavish funerals then.
Necromancer got to get their corpses somehow, and you can't raise a blessed corpse.
That is the blessing for that, though. A normal bless spell only lasts a minute and needs concentration. And some sort of 'save our Necromancers!' campaign? Really?
I meant ceremony. I thought that is what you were talking about (although I suppose gentle repose is strictly better huh?).
And no, I necromancers don't need saving, they have an army of villagers that couldn't afford a fancy funeral for that.
The price is very often complained about. Keep in mind that via the same spell used to produce holy water, it is also RAW that every community needs to spend 25gp per corpse, simply to properly administer last rights to the deceased. Just how rich do they think peasants are?
I imagine that peasants just don't have lavish funerals then.
Necromancer got to get their corpses somehow, and you can't raise a blessed corpse.
That is the blessing for that, though. A normal bless spell only lasts a minute and needs concentration. And some sort of 'save our Necromancers!' campaign? Really?
I meant ceremony. I thought that is what you were talking about (although I suppose gentle repose is strictly better huh?).
And no, I necromancers don't need saving, they have an army of villagers that couldn't afford a fancy funeral for that.
That is sort of my point... it isn't a 'fancy funeral' but rather 'funeral rite.' You also need to spend 25 gp or you cannot officially marry... The poor are not allowed to marry either? Really?
Ceremony is just the ceremony. Technically it is really only needed to be married (etc) in the eyes of whatever God the cleric/paladin worships.
And I wonder if any part of it might get paid by the church. The spell's cost is mostly for balancing PCs I'm sure.
Ceremony is just the ceremony. Technically it is really only needed to be married (etc) in the eyes of whatever God the cleric/paladin worships.
And I wonder if any part of it might get paid by the church. The spell's cost is mostly for balancing PCs I'm sure.
And presumably, in the eyes of whatever deity that the community worships. You do not see the problem with this concept?
And yes, that is what I mean... no thought at all whether anything makes sense or not.... just 'gosh, can't let those PC's have a break even on last rights, cause it is so funny when a PC is not merely dead but comes back to attack the party as undead.... '
Yeah, I really don't think most of the faerunian gods care. And even if they did, I could be completely wrong about the function of ceremony in the rite. Maybe it is just to have an extra blessing from the god, like paying to have a famous musician or chef (except it is a god).
Who knows, who cares. We can definitely assume by the component cost that poor commoners are not paying it. It is entirely likely that marriage isn't considered important or required.
Ceremony likely isn't the de facto means of carrying out ceremonies just from the fact that it's a completely optional spell. It could just as well be a luxury some people are willing to pay for to mark a special occasion. As for funeral rites, a simple Gentle Repose would do. If someone's corpse is being targeted or someone's going around gravedigging you'd want physical security measures anyways.
Anyways, yeah, I don't think alchemist's fire and the likes are meant to have great bang for your buck for PCs. On the other hand equipment lists aren't just for the PCs; monsters and NPCs use those too. If a town has a troll problem it makes sense for the commoners to try to arm themselves with alchemist's fire.
Also I'd like to point out holy water only works on undead and fiends, and incorporeal creatures and demons generally resist acid, so despite the damage they're not redundant. As for alchemist's fire, it also has some niche uses. Any amount of damage forces a DC 10 concentration check so it can be useful against spellcasters. Also, it's arguably pretty hard to hide when you're on fire, so it can double as a nonmagical Faerie Fire.
That said I agree these items leave a bad taste in most players' mouths. Since you can't add your proficiency bonus they become increasingly unreliable as you level. To make matters worse, martial characters have to give up their extra attacks. If you really need fire damage in a pinch you're usually better off with a torch unless you really need the extra range or the other benefits of lighting your enemy on fire.
Anyways, yeah, I don't think alchemist's fire and the likes are meant to have great bang for your buck for PCs. On the other hand equipment lists aren't just for the PCs; monsters and NPCs use those too. If a town has a troll problem it makes sense for the commoners to try to arm themselves with alchemist's fire.
Or they could buy 225 Oil (Flask) and 225 Torch. I wouldn't have a problem with the stats if the cost was lower (say, 1/10).
The price is very often complained about. Keep in mind that via the same spell used to produce holy water, it is also RAW that every community needs to spend 25gp per corpse, simply to properly administer last rights to the deceased. Just how rich do they think peasants are?
I imagine that peasants just don't have lavish funerals then.
Necromancer got to get their corpses somehow, and you can't raise a blessed corpse.
That is the blessing for that, though. A normal bless spell only lasts a minute and needs concentration. And some sort of 'save our Necromancers!' campaign? Really?
I meant ceremony. I thought that is what you were talking about (although I suppose gentle repose is strictly better huh?).
And no, I necromancers don't need saving, they have an army of villagers that couldn't afford a fancy funeral for that.
That is sort of my point... it isn't a 'fancy funeral' but rather 'funeral rite.' You also need to spend 25 gp or you cannot officially marry... The poor are not allowed to marry either? Really?
It is 100% a mistake to assume that the spell ceremony must be cast for funerals or weddings to be "official."
Acid is 2d6 acid damage, with no proficiency. Most PCs can do at least 7 damage, with proficiency, with starting gear that doesn't cost 25 gp/use.
Holy Water is identical other than being radiant.
Alchemist's Fire is 1d4 per turn, with no proficiency; typically after 2-4 rounds the creature will be dead or willing to spend an action putting it out.
And that's at first level; by the time 25 gp attacks are an affordable choice, the damage is utterly useless. They are semi-useful against things with weapon immunity, but even then there's usually a better choice. Am I missing something?
The one big thing you're missing here is the main use of crafting tools: crafting. Acid and alchemist fire are two items you can create with alchemists tools, but you're forgetting that you can also create potions. Look up the Magic Item Crafting rules in Xanathar's-- given the right proficiency, the right amount of gold, and the right amount of time, you can craft ANY potion for later use (except a healing potion, which is made with herbalism kits for some reason, but that's just RAW, your DM might give you some leeway on that).
Here's a list of all the available potion types, just for some perspective:
Another little-utilized use for crafting tools of any kind: invention! Have a cool idea for an alchemical thing you want to make with your alchemist's tools? Say to your DM "hey, can I make x?" Or "hey, what would it take for me to Y?" and see what you can do.
For funeral rites... just cremate the body. There's no need of a burial.
I imagine there's rites and magics for communing with spirits that have passed on, and for that you need the original body. Or a resurrection if necessary. So, important people. But the average village? There's less to no chance of resurrection or other magic, preserving a body is actively a danger, and I don't know of a single D&D religion that discourages cremation like Christianity does.
For funeral rites... just cremate the body. There's no need of a burial.
I imagine there's rites and magics for communing with spirits that have passed on, and for that you need the original body. Or a resurrection if necessary. So, important people. But the average village? There's less to no chance of resurrection or other magic, preserving a body is actively a danger, and I don't know of a single D&D religion that discourages cremation like Christianity does.
Pardon, but which D&D religions give that level of detail as to the tenets?
I don't think that was meant to be a testament of how it actually works (or is supposed to work, etc) in the forgotten realms and more of an economical suggestion as to how it could work.
And it does make sense, but then again so does just burying them. Undeath isn't that common, so I'd wager taking countermeasures against it isn't common either.
And that's at first level; by the time 25 gp attacks are an affordable choice, the damage is utterly useless. They are semi-useful against things with weapon immunity, but even then there's usually a better choice. Am I missing something?
Your links/tags are broken, but I'm assuming you are talking about a vial of acid, holy water, and alchemists fire? They are certainly unconventional and don't see a lot of use, and I agree that standard attacks are probably better outside of bypassing resistances. I've had players utilize them in ambushes and traps, and the acid is great as a utility item for damaging doors and obstacles, but they rarely see actual combat use except as a last resort.
Don't forget to add DEX modifiers to weapon damage of ranged attacks (this is RAW and RAI, but often over looked for these items).
Yeah, these items see very little use because of their expense. Acid might be most common for the reason iconarising mentioned (it is also cheaper than alchemist fire).
I imagine that peasants just don't have lavish funerals then.
Necromancer got to get their corpses somehow, and you can't raise a blessed corpse.
I meant ceremony. I thought that is what you were talking about (although I suppose gentle repose is strictly better huh?).
And no, I necromancers don't need saving, they have an army of villagers that couldn't afford a fancy funeral for that.
Ceremony is just the ceremony. Technically it is really only needed to be married (etc) in the eyes of whatever God the cleric/paladin worships.
And I wonder if any part of it might get paid by the church. The spell's cost is mostly for balancing PCs I'm sure.
Yeah, I really don't think most of the faerunian gods care. And even if they did, I could be completely wrong about the function of ceremony in the rite. Maybe it is just to have an extra blessing from the god, like paying to have a famous musician or chef (except it is a god).
Who knows, who cares. We can definitely assume by the component cost that poor commoners are not paying it. It is entirely likely that marriage isn't considered important or required.
Ceremony likely isn't the de facto means of carrying out ceremonies just from the fact that it's a completely optional spell. It could just as well be a luxury some people are willing to pay for to mark a special occasion. As for funeral rites, a simple Gentle Repose would do. If someone's corpse is being targeted or someone's going around gravedigging you'd want physical security measures anyways.
Anyways, yeah, I don't think alchemist's fire and the likes are meant to have great bang for your buck for PCs. On the other hand equipment lists aren't just for the PCs; monsters and NPCs use those too. If a town has a troll problem it makes sense for the commoners to try to arm themselves with alchemist's fire.
Also I'd like to point out holy water only works on undead and fiends, and incorporeal creatures and demons generally resist acid, so despite the damage they're not redundant. As for alchemist's fire, it also has some niche uses. Any amount of damage forces a DC 10 concentration check so it can be useful against spellcasters. Also, it's arguably pretty hard to hide when you're on fire, so it can double as a nonmagical Faerie Fire.
That said I agree these items leave a bad taste in most players' mouths. Since you can't add your proficiency bonus they become increasingly unreliable as you level. To make matters worse, martial characters have to give up their extra attacks. If you really need fire damage in a pinch you're usually better off with a torch unless you really need the extra range or the other benefits of lighting your enemy on fire.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Or they could buy 225 Oil (Flask) and 225 Torch. I wouldn't have a problem with the stats if the cost was lower (say, 1/10).
It is 100% a mistake to assume that the spell ceremony must be cast for funerals or weddings to be "official."
The one big thing you're missing here is the main use of crafting tools: crafting. Acid and alchemist fire are two items you can create with alchemists tools, but you're forgetting that you can also create potions. Look up the Magic Item Crafting rules in Xanathar's-- given the right proficiency, the right amount of gold, and the right amount of time, you can craft ANY potion for later use (except a healing potion, which is made with herbalism kits for some reason, but that's just RAW, your DM might give you some leeway on that).
Here's a list of all the available potion types, just for some perspective:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=Potion&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=
Another little-utilized use for crafting tools of any kind: invention! Have a cool idea for an alchemical thing you want to make with your alchemist's tools? Say to your DM "hey, can I make x?" Or "hey, what would it take for me to Y?" and see what you can do.
For funeral rites... just cremate the body. There's no need of a burial.
I imagine there's rites and magics for communing with spirits that have passed on, and for that you need the original body. Or a resurrection if necessary. So, important people. But the average village? There's less to no chance of resurrection or other magic, preserving a body is actively a danger, and I don't know of a single D&D religion that discourages cremation like Christianity does.
I don't think that was meant to be a testament of how it actually works (or is supposed to work, etc) in the forgotten realms and more of an economical suggestion as to how it could work.
And it does make sense, but then again so does just burying them. Undeath isn't that common, so I'd wager taking countermeasures against it isn't common either.
Anyways, alchemy...
These items are always useful in specific circumstances.
No acid spell? Then a vial of acid will do the job.