ok ive been looking through a lot of different forums and resource books and haven't been able to find a definitive answer , i am making a winged tiefling , and was looking at using the spell Alter self , to hide the wings when needed , but no one seems to have a answer beyond their own opinion, some say you can because the spell says " you can make yourself appear as a member of another race and take on all aspects of their appearance "( though not their stats ) others are saying it cant as it says " if you're bipedal, you cant use it to become Quadrupedal " , or is it something that's just down to the DM ?
Strict RAW would agree with Emmber and Lyxen, but in this case you would be limiting the spell greatly for a winged creature compared to others. I believe the intent is to keep this from being a polymorph/wildshape type spell, and since the desire here is to hide existing wings, not grant non-existing ones, I'd allow the wings to meld into your back so long as you didn't try to use them while the spell was active.
Honestly though, strict RAW and centaur PCs would be in a tight spot, since there is no race that shares that particular six limbed configuration and body organization.
I wouldn’t have thought to call wings limbs. But then I don’t know what else I would call them, so I can get on board with the term. But if the argument is you need to keep the same number of limbs, then a person, with four, could turn into a horse, with four. Of course the spell specifically says you can’t, but I don’t see anything about changing number of limbs (one way or the other) in the description. I read it as that being too drastic a change in body type — something that walks upright to something that walks on four legs.
The OP still wants to keep the basic size and shape of his original character (like the spell says, basic shape) just hide a part of him that could probably be folded up close to his body. Considering this spell could make a human look like a dwarf, it doesn’t seem a big stretch to make a tiefling look like a slightly different tiefling. For a one hour concentration spell, it seems reasonable. Like I said in my first post though, it’s going to come down to a DM ruling.
It doesn’t also say your basic shape stays the same, it only says your basic shape stays. It then gives an example of how changing from bipedal to quadruped would be going too far. As I said, I don’t read that as having to do with limbs, the spell does not even mention number of limbs, but with a more dramatic change in the shape of a body. From something upright to something on all fours. The OP is still proposing walking upright.
Put it like this, if the OP wanted to hide their appearance as a human, would you allow it? Or would you rule the human must have wings? Or that basically this kind of teifling can only use this spell to turn into something else with wings? Because that seems way too strict an interpretation to me.
I don’t see hiding wings but otherwise remaining the same as “changing basic shape” when you can become an entirely different species. I can see how some might, but I disagree.
Put it like this, if the OP wanted to hide their appearance as a human, would you allow it? Or would you rule the human must have wings? Or that basically this kind of teifling can only use this spell to turn into something else with wings? Because that seems way too strict an interpretation to me.
I absolutely consider wings to be included in a creature's basic shape. For me the key is - if you would allow a flying creature to remove their wings with Alter Self because you consider it to still be the same basic shape - you would also by definition allow a non-winged creature to grow wings - because they would still have the same basic shape. And if they can grow wings - what then? Grow extra arms too? Legs too as long as they remain upright? Where is the line drawn?
And that leads to the question of why can a Winged Tiefling fly - when a human Altered into a Winged Tiefling can't? I mean - they would be physically identical.
It's an interesting situation, to be sure. I kind of agree with the interpretation of RAW saying you can't cover the wings. As many have said, DM can adjust as he/she sees fit, and I personally would allow it. I would also allow a NON winged character to sprout wings, if they chose. In both cases, if you use the wings, the illusion fails, and the non-flyer can never fly, in either shape.
So would there be an argument about horns as well? Can they be covered/disguised, or are they considered part of the basic shape? I think that's what it truly comes down to, and defining the wings as limbs rather sets it, but horns? Might just be best to always confirm your DM agrees with your interpretation of basic shape.
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It doesn’t also say your basic shape stays the same, it only says your basic shape stays.
Why don't you read the spell: "and your basic shape stays the same." Come on...
It then gives an example of how changing from bipedal to quadruped would be going too far. As I said, I don’t read that as having to do with limbs, the spell does not even mention number of limbs, but with a more dramatic change in the shape of a body. From something upright to something on all fours. The OP is still proposing walking upright.
THe OP is proposing moving from hexapedal to quadripedal.
Put it like this, if the OP wanted to hide their appearance as a human, would you allow it?
No, moreover, Alter Self is not specifically a spell made for hiding your appearance, it is to alter your form. It is transmutation, not illusion in particular.
Or would you rule the human must have wings? Or that basically this kind of teifling can only use this spell to turn into something else with wings? Because that seems way too strict an interpretation to me.
It is simply RAW.
I don’t see hiding wings but otherwise remaining the same as “changing basic shape” when you can become an entirely different species.
A humanoid species without wings. Otherwise, if you allow this, why don't you allow people to grow wing ? Why restrict it to removing limbs ?
I can see how some might, but I disagree.
Nesting quotes is tough for me, so here goes, trying to address things.
Hexapedeal would mean it has six feet. A teifling with wings still only has two feet. It is, by the meaning of the word, bipedal. Remove the wings, and it still has the same number of feet, it is still bipedal.
I concede there is a difference between transmutation and illusion, (and I could see a big difference here, being that the transmuted version couldn't be seen through like an illusion can, which is a significant benefit) but are you actually suggesting that altering your form is not done hide your appearance? That changing the way you look isn't hiding your appearance? At least the use of the spell that's at issue here, which is designed specifically to allow you to change the way your character looks. This use of it is specifically designed to hide your appearance.
It is not simply RAW. If it were, you would be able to point me to a definition of the term "basic shape," since that is really the crux of the issue here. That term is not defined (unless it is, in which case, I'll have a lot of crow to eat) so we are into the realm of interpretation. There is a single example given, and I do not believe it applies in this situation.
I just don't see the issue. You could go from a female dwarf to a male goliath -- swap genders and grow three feet -- and that would be OK. But you can't be the same person, just without wings? It just seems like dropping wings is a much less drastic change and should be allowed. I can see where some creatures, birds, in particular, have wings that are fundamental and are certainly a part of basic shape. I see wings on a tiefling as an add-on, not part of the base, and therefore subject to being changed by the spell. The person would lose their fly speed while they are maintaining the spell, but I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.
And yes, I would allow people to sprout wings if they were appropriate to the race they were taking the form of, but, as Falwith says, not use them. I would also allow someone to, for example, look like themselves but missing an arm or a leg -- as long as they are also willing to accept the challenges that would come along with that.
I see wings on a tiefling as an add-on, not part of the base, and therefore subject to being changed by the spell. The person would lose their fly speed while they are maintaining the spell, but I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.
I think actually this is the bit I have the biggest problem with. The Alter Self spell specifically says "none of your statistics change". If you lose your fly speed then your statistics are changing. If they don't then it means you can still fly - without wings...
First off, a grammar lesson. Pretty much everyone has been using biped, quadruped, and especially hexaped wrong. "Ped" refers to number of feet, not number if limbs. And it uses Latin so 6 legs would actually be sexta-ped (hyphen for clarity). Most animals, both bipeds and quadrupeds, are usually tetrapods or pentapods. This time from Greek and "pod" also meaning foot, but used to count limbs (6 limbs would be hexapod). I am not sure if or when tails are counted as limbs in anatomy grammar and this is already getting long.
With that out of the way, the rules for [Tooltip Not Found] say that a 4 limbed creature that walks on 2 legs can't become a 4 limbed creature that walks on 4 legs, because that is too extreme of a change. I think that makes it quite obvious that gaining or losing entire limbs (which is a far more extreme change) is out of the question.
Personally, I would allow the winged tiefling to fold and hide their wings and altar all of their non-wing parts into a different bipedal tetrapod the same as a tiefling without wings could do (and same for Aaracokra).
In medicine people who have had all 4 limbs amputated are called Quadrimembral Amputees. Membral from latin "membrum" meaning limb. So six limbs would probably be something close Sextamembral. Also tails are considered limbs but only if they are prehensile.
A perfect example of why allowing Flying creatures at your table is a bad idea. Flying creatures have an enormous advantage in game. The fact that they have disadvantage when it comes to disguising themselves is perfectly valid and good balance.
A perfect example of why allowing Flying creatures at your table is a bad idea. Flying creatures have an enormous advantage in game. The fact that they have disadvantage when it comes to disguising themselves is perfectly valid and good balance.
Flying pretty much stops being that big of an advantage at level 5, and becomes pretty commonplace as you go up.
All arcane casters get fly at level 5, bards can get it level 6 (lore) or 10, twilight clerics can fly at 6, 4 classes get polymorph at 7, druids can turn into birds at 8, warlocks can get at will levitate at 9, etc. Not to mention low rarity magic items that grant fly speeds that you should be able to start finding tier 2.
Fly speed can definitely be game breaking low level though.
A perfect example of why allowing Flying creatures at your table is a bad idea. Flying creatures have an enormous advantage in game. The fact that they have disadvantage when it comes to disguising themselves is perfectly valid and good balance.
Flying pretty much stops being that big of an advantage at level 5, and becomes pretty commonplace as you go up.
All arcane casters get fly at level 5, bards can get it level 6 (lore) or 10, twilight clerics can fly at 6, 4 classes get polymorph at 7, druids can turn into birds at 8, warlocks can get at will levitate at 9, etc. Not to mention low rarity magic items that grant fly speeds that you should be able to start finding tier 2.
Fly speed can definitely be game breaking low level though.
There is a HUGE difference between non-Concentration and Concentration based flying abilities.
A perfect example of why allowing Flying creatures at your table is a bad idea. Flying creatures have an enormous advantage in game. The fact that they have disadvantage when it comes to disguising themselves is perfectly valid and good balance.
Flying pretty much stops being that big of an advantage at level 5, and becomes pretty commonplace as you go up.
All arcane casters get fly at level 5, bards can get it level 6 (lore) or 10, twilight clerics can fly at 6, 4 classes get polymorph at 7, druids can turn into birds at 8, warlocks can get at will levitate at 9, etc. Not to mention low rarity magic items that grant fly speeds that you should be able to start finding tier 2.
Fly speed can definitely be game breaking low level though.
There is a HUGE difference between non-Concentration and Concentration based flying abilities.
Fair enough. And that does eliminate most of them (leaving twilight clerics and druids). That just leaves uncommon magic items that level 5 characters might start finding as the biggest argument.
But concentration or not, the fact that it is available to almost every party starting at level 5, significantly reduces how overpowered it is. It will still navigate and avoid danger just as well regardless.
A perfect example of why allowing Flying creatures at your table is a bad idea. Flying creatures have an enormous advantage in game. The fact that they have disadvantage when it comes to disguising themselves is perfectly valid and good balance.
Flying pretty much stops being that big of an advantage at level 5, and becomes pretty commonplace as you go up.
All arcane casters get fly at level 5, bards can get it level 6 (lore) or 10, twilight clerics can fly at 6, 4 classes get polymorph at 7, druids can turn into birds at 8, warlocks can get at will levitate at 9, etc. Not to mention low rarity magic items that grant fly speeds that you should be able to start finding tier 2.
Fly speed can definitely be game breaking low level though.
There is a HUGE difference between non-Concentration and Concentration based flying abilities.
Fair enough. And that does eliminate most of them (leaving twilight clerics and druids). That just leaves uncommon magic items that level 5 characters might start finding as the biggest argument.
But concentration or not, the fact that it is available to almost every party starting at level 5, significantly reduces how overpowered it is. It will still navigate and avoid danger just as well regardless.
I played with a guy who indeed went for the Uncommon item Winged Boots. (Broom of Flying is fairly close in utility as well). Both items were a nightmare for the DM.
You may not even need a spell. In the animated series from the 90's, Gargoyles, they would fold their wings close to their bodies, clasp their "thumbs" together and let the wings fall around them like a cloak. If you put an actual cloak on top of that it should conceal most, if not all of the wings. If you're not sure what I mean just look up images of Goliath or Demona.
ok ive been looking through a lot of different forums and resource books and haven't been able to find a definitive answer , i am making a winged tiefling , and was looking at using the spell Alter self , to hide the wings when needed , but no one seems to have a answer beyond their own opinion, some say you can because the spell says " you can make yourself appear as a member of another race and take on all aspects of their appearance "( though not their stats ) others are saying it cant as it says " if you're bipedal, you cant use it to become Quadrupedal " , or is it something that's just down to the DM ?
In the end, it’s always up to the DM.
That said, I’d allow it.
Exactly as Lyxen said. A Winged Tiefling has 6 limbs because the wings are extra - and you cannot remove limbs with Alter Self.
A very strict DM might even include the Tiefling's tail in the requirements for the new appearance too.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Strict RAW would agree with Emmber and Lyxen, but in this case you would be limiting the spell greatly for a winged creature compared to others. I believe the intent is to keep this from being a polymorph/wildshape type spell, and since the desire here is to hide existing wings, not grant non-existing ones, I'd allow the wings to meld into your back so long as you didn't try to use them while the spell was active.
Honestly though, strict RAW and centaur PCs would be in a tight spot, since there is no race that shares that particular six limbed configuration and body organization.
I wouldn’t have thought to call wings limbs. But then I don’t know what else I would call them, so I can get on board with the term.
But if the argument is you need to keep the same number of limbs, then a person, with four, could turn into a horse, with four. Of course the spell specifically says you can’t, but I don’t see anything about changing number of limbs (one way or the other) in the description. I read it as that being too drastic a change in body type — something that walks upright to something that walks on four legs.
The OP still wants to keep the basic size and shape of his original character (like the spell says, basic shape) just hide a part of him that could probably be folded up close to his body. Considering this spell could make a human look like a dwarf, it doesn’t seem a big stretch to make a tiefling look like a slightly different tiefling. For a one hour concentration spell, it seems reasonable.
Like I said in my first post though, it’s going to come down to a DM ruling.
It doesn’t also say your basic shape stays the same, it only says your basic shape stays. It then gives an example of how changing from bipedal to quadruped would be going too far. As I said, I don’t read that as having to do with limbs, the spell does not even mention number of limbs, but with a more dramatic change in the shape of a body. From something upright to something on all fours. The OP is still proposing walking upright.
Put it like this, if the OP wanted to hide their appearance as a human, would you allow it? Or would you rule the human must have wings? Or that basically this kind of teifling can only use this spell to turn into something else with wings? Because that seems way too strict an interpretation to me.
I don’t see hiding wings but otherwise remaining the same as “changing basic shape” when you can become an entirely different species. I can see how some might, but I disagree.
I absolutely consider wings to be included in a creature's basic shape. For me the key is - if you would allow a flying creature to remove their wings with Alter Self because you consider it to still be the same basic shape - you would also by definition allow a non-winged creature to grow wings - because they would still have the same basic shape.
And if they can grow wings - what then? Grow extra arms too? Legs too as long as they remain upright? Where is the line drawn?
And that leads to the question of why can a Winged Tiefling fly - when a human Altered into a Winged Tiefling can't? I mean - they would be physically identical.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
It's an interesting situation, to be sure. I kind of agree with the interpretation of RAW saying you can't cover the wings. As many have said, DM can adjust as he/she sees fit, and I personally would allow it. I would also allow a NON winged character to sprout wings, if they chose. In both cases, if you use the wings, the illusion fails, and the non-flyer can never fly, in either shape.
So would there be an argument about horns as well? Can they be covered/disguised, or are they considered part of the basic shape? I think that's what it truly comes down to, and defining the wings as limbs rather sets it, but horns? Might just be best to always confirm your DM agrees with your interpretation of basic shape.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Nesting quotes is tough for me, so here goes, trying to address things.
Hexapedeal would mean it has six feet. A teifling with wings still only has two feet. It is, by the meaning of the word, bipedal. Remove the wings, and it still has the same number of feet, it is still bipedal.
I concede there is a difference between transmutation and illusion, (and I could see a big difference here, being that the transmuted version couldn't be seen through like an illusion can, which is a significant benefit) but are you actually suggesting that altering your form is not done hide your appearance? That changing the way you look isn't hiding your appearance? At least the use of the spell that's at issue here, which is designed specifically to allow you to change the way your character looks. This use of it is specifically designed to hide your appearance.
It is not simply RAW. If it were, you would be able to point me to a definition of the term "basic shape," since that is really the crux of the issue here. That term is not defined (unless it is, in which case, I'll have a lot of crow to eat) so we are into the realm of interpretation. There is a single example given, and I do not believe it applies in this situation.
I just don't see the issue. You could go from a female dwarf to a male goliath -- swap genders and grow three feet -- and that would be OK. But you can't be the same person, just without wings? It just seems like dropping wings is a much less drastic change and should be allowed. I can see where some creatures, birds, in particular, have wings that are fundamental and are certainly a part of basic shape. I see wings on a tiefling as an add-on, not part of the base, and therefore subject to being changed by the spell. The person would lose their fly speed while they are maintaining the spell, but I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.
And yes, I would allow people to sprout wings if they were appropriate to the race they were taking the form of, but, as Falwith says, not use them. I would also allow someone to, for example, look like themselves but missing an arm or a leg -- as long as they are also willing to accept the challenges that would come along with that.
I think actually this is the bit I have the biggest problem with. The Alter Self spell specifically says "none of your statistics change". If you lose your fly speed then your statistics are changing. If they don't then it means you can still fly - without wings...
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
First off, a grammar lesson. Pretty much everyone has been using biped, quadruped, and especially hexaped wrong. "Ped" refers to number of feet, not number if limbs. And it uses Latin so 6 legs would actually be sexta-ped (hyphen for clarity). Most animals, both bipeds and quadrupeds, are usually tetrapods or pentapods. This time from Greek and "pod" also meaning foot, but used to count limbs (6 limbs would be hexapod). I am not sure if or when tails are counted as limbs in anatomy grammar and this is already getting long.
With that out of the way, the rules for [Tooltip Not Found] say that a 4 limbed creature that walks on 2 legs can't become a 4 limbed creature that walks on 4 legs, because that is too extreme of a change. I think that makes it quite obvious that gaining or losing entire limbs (which is a far more extreme change) is out of the question.
Personally, I would allow the winged tiefling to fold and hide their wings and altar all of their non-wing parts into a different bipedal tetrapod the same as a tiefling without wings could do (and same for Aaracokra).
In medicine people who have had all 4 limbs amputated are called Quadrimembral Amputees. Membral from latin "membrum" meaning limb. So six limbs would probably be something close Sextamembral.
Also tails are considered limbs but only if they are prehensile.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
A perfect example of why allowing Flying creatures at your table is a bad idea. Flying creatures have an enormous advantage in game. The fact that they have disadvantage when it comes to disguising themselves is perfectly valid and good balance.
Flying pretty much stops being that big of an advantage at level 5, and becomes pretty commonplace as you go up.
All arcane casters get fly at level 5, bards can get it level 6 (lore) or 10, twilight clerics can fly at 6, 4 classes get polymorph at 7, druids can turn into birds at 8, warlocks can get at will levitate at 9, etc. Not to mention low rarity magic items that grant fly speeds that you should be able to start finding tier 2.
Fly speed can definitely be game breaking low level though.
There is a HUGE difference between non-Concentration and Concentration based flying abilities.
Fair enough. And that does eliminate most of them (leaving twilight clerics and druids). That just leaves uncommon magic items that level 5 characters might start finding as the biggest argument.
But concentration or not, the fact that it is available to almost every party starting at level 5, significantly reduces how overpowered it is. It will still navigate and avoid danger just as well regardless.
I played with a guy who indeed went for the Uncommon item Winged Boots. (Broom of Flying is fairly close in utility as well). Both items were a nightmare for the DM.
You may not even need a spell. In the animated series from the 90's, Gargoyles, they would fold their wings close to their bodies, clasp their "thumbs" together and let the wings fall around them like a cloak. If you put an actual cloak on top of that it should conceal most, if not all of the wings. If you're not sure what I mean just look up images of Goliath or Demona.
Absolutely underrated comment! Amazing creativity! I love it!