Twice Proficiency allows you to apply double proficiency to a skill or tool under a specific situation, even if you are not already proficient in that skill or tool. Expertise allows you to double your proficiency bonus for a skill in which you are already proficient.
Examples of features & traits that use the Twice Proficiency modifier:
Whenever you make an Intelligence (History) check related to the origin of stonework, you are considered proficient in the History skill and add double your proficiency bonus to the check, instead of your normal proficiency bonus.
At 1st level, you learn two languages of your choice. You also become proficient in your choice of two of the following skills: Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion.
Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of those skills.
Examples of features & traits that use the Expertise modifier:
You have a knack for learning new things. You gain the following benefits:
You gain one skill proficiency of your choice, one tool proficiency of your choice, and fluency in one language of your choice.
Choose one skill in which you have proficiency. You gain expertise with that skill, which means your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with it. The skill you choose must be one that isn’t already benefiting from a feature, such as Expertise, that doubles your proficiency bonus.
At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
At 6th level, you can choose two more of your proficiencies (in skills or with thieves’ tools) to gain this benefit.
D&D has a rule that if two or more sources (like class, background, etc.) both grant proficiency in the same skill or tool, then you can replace the redundant proficiency in a skill (or tool) with with proficiency in any alternative skill (or tool).
Each background gives a character proficiency in two skills. Skills are described in the Using Ability Scores section.
In addition, most backgrounds give a character proficiency with one or more tools. Tools and tool proficiencies are detailed in the Equipment section.
If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead.
So, if you have proficiency in “Skill X” from any source, such as your background, and later gain twice proficiency in that same skill, then you can go back and select a replacement skill for the initial proficiency granted by that initial source. If you instead gain expertise in that skill, then you don’t get to replace the initial proficiency since Expertise does not grant any proficiency to count as redundant.
At least, that’s how it’s “sposta work,” and last time I tested it they did in fact work that way. But that was several months ago, and I know they are doing upgrades to the content creation software that we get to use in the homebrewer.
Well, they are similar but not the same. If you use twice proficiency and they already have regular proficiency in that skill, they get to replace that regular proficiency. In order to use Expertise they must already have proficiency in that skill.
Are there any game features in which something would give you twice proficiency when you don't already have proficiency to begin with? Because that sounds like the only difference in the two examples you just gave.
Are there any game features in which something would give you twice proficiency when you don't already have proficiency to begin with? Because that sounds like the only difference in the two examples you just gave.
With either of the examples I gave above (Stonecunning, or Blessings of Knowledge) it is possible that either one of them could potentially grant Twice Proficiency in a skill that is granted by another source. If a Knowledge Domain cleric already has proficiency in one of those skills from a race or background for example, then the race/background would follow the rules allowing you to take a different proficiency.
Well, they are similar but not the same. If you use twice proficiency and they already have regular proficiency in that skill, they get to replace that regular proficiency. In order to use Expertise they must already have proficiency in that skill.
I don't think I understand what you are saying here.
Adding double your proficiency modifier is the same as expertise which adds double your proficiency modifier.
In your two examples - BOTH provide proficiency in a particular skill as a pre-requisite for doubling the proficiency bonus.
In the case of dwarf stone cunning, if they are already proficient in history they do not get to choose some other skill to be proficient with at the time of making the history check. They just add double their proficiency when resolving the check under specific circumstances.
In the case of knowledge cleric, it gives the character two additional skill proficiencies which are then allowed to use double the proficiency modifier when resolving skill checks in those skills.
The fact that these features give proficiency in skills is entirely independent of the fact that they also grant the ability to double the proficiency modifier (expertise) when resolving those checks. The rule was cited above:
"You gain expertise with that skill, which means your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with it."
"Expertise: At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies."
"Expertise: At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies."
Expertise is just the name of the class feature that allows certain classes to double the proficiency bonus when making checks with certain skills.
"Blessing of Knowledge" is a class feature that grants proficieny in two skills as well as "Expertise" in those skills (doubling of the proficiency bonus). However, since Expertise is the name applied to the class feature rather than a general rule - the text uses the equivalent "doubles the proficiency bonus" wording but they mean exactly the same thing.
P.S. There is no way to get "double proficiency" or "twice proficiency" in a skill. A feature could give you a skill proficiency - if it matches one the character already has they can choose another but getting a skill proficiency again does not allow you to double the proficiency bonus. In order to double a proficiency bonus when resolving a skill check the text has to say that the character can double the proficiency bonus when resolving a relevant skill check explicitly.
Well, they are similar but not the same. If you use twice proficiency and they already have regular proficiency in that skill, they get to replace that regular proficiency. In order to use Expertise they must already have proficiency in that skill.
I don't think I understand what you are saying here.
Adding double your proficiency modifier is the same as expertise which adds double your proficiency modifier.
Basically, he is saying that the difference is restrictions to which skill is chosen (expertise requires already being proficient, twice proficiency doesn't). The end result is the same.
Well, they are similar but not the same. If you use twice proficiency and they already have regular proficiency in that skill, they get to replace that regular proficiency. In order to use Expertise they must already have proficiency in that skill.
I don't think I understand what you are saying here.
Adding double your proficiency modifier is the same as expertise which adds double your proficiency modifier.
In your two examples - BOTH provide proficiency in a particular skill as a pre-requisite for doubling the proficiency bonus.
In the case of dwarf stone cunning, if they are already proficient in history they do not get to choose some other skill to be proficient with at the time of making the history check. They just add double their proficiency when resolving the check under specific circumstances.
In the case of knowledge cleric, it gives the character two additional skill proficiencies which are then allowed to use double the proficiency modifier when resolving skill checks in those skills.
The fact that these features give proficiency in skills is entirely independent of the fact that they also grant the ability to double the proficiency modifier (expertise) when resolving those checks. The rule was cited above:
"You gain expertise with that skill, which means your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with it."
"Expertise: At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies."
"Expertise: At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies."
Expertise is just the name of the class feature that allows certain classes to double the proficiency bonus when making checks with certain skills.
"Blessing of Knowledge" is a class feature that grants proficieny in two skills as well as "Expertise" in those skills (doubling of the proficiency bonus). However, since Expertise is the name applied to the class feature rather than a general rule - the text uses the equivalent "doubles the proficiency bonus" wording but they mean exactly the same thing.
P.S. There is no way to get "double proficiency" or "twice proficiency" in a skill. A feature could give you a skill proficiency - if it matches one the character already has they can choose another but getting a skill proficiency again does not allow you to double the proficiency bonus. In order to double a proficiency bonus when resolving a skill check the text has to say that the character can double the proficiency bonus when resolving a relevant skill check explicitly.
You are correct, you don’t understand. This isn’t a point of D&D’s RAW, it’s a point about how DDB’s system functions to implement those rules. This isn’t a rules debate, but a technical difference inherent in this website’s programming.
Under RAW, if you are granted proficiency in the same thing by more than one source, you can replace that proficiency from one of those sources.
Under RAW, Blessings of Knowledge (and similar features/traits/feats) grants proficiency in various skills and allows you to double your PB for relevant checks. So the Twice Proficiency Modifier that DDB uses both grants Proficiency and it automatically doubles the associated number displayed on DDB’s character sheet. And since RAW, whenever two different things grant the same proficiency, you can replace one of them.
Under RAW, anything that grants “Expertise” allows you to double your PB for Ability checks you make with a relevant skill (or tool) that you are already proficient in/with. Since it is supposed to only apply to something you are already proficient in, it is not a second source granting you proficiency in the same thing. So even though the Modifier mechanically doubles your PB for relevant skill checks on the character sheet, it doesn’t technically grant proficiency so it doesn’t trigger the system to allow you to replace one of them if you also gain proficiency in that skill from another source.
See the difference now? One Modifier grants proficiency which triggers RAW to kick in, the other doesn’t. Make sense?
Well, they are similar but not the same. If you use twice proficiency and they already have regular proficiency in that skill, they get to replace that regular proficiency. In order to use Expertise they must already have proficiency in that skill.
I don't think I understand what you are saying here.
Adding double your proficiency modifier is the same as expertise which adds double your proficiency modifier.
Basically, he is saying that the difference is restrictions to which skill is chosen (expertise requires already being proficient, twice proficiency doesn't). The end result is the same.
Even with your clarification, I don't understand the distinction IamSposta is making. We can look at this from two perspectives, but it's the same in both cases:
In terms of existing game features, any feature that I know of that grants twice proficiency only does it to a skill you are already proficient in. Likewise, expertise only applies to a skill you are already proficient in. They are identical in how the game presents them.
In homebrew terms, if I make a ring that grants twice proficiency to stealth and I put it on a character that does not have stealth proficiency, they will have 2x proficiency bonus to stealth. If I make a ring that grants expertise to stealth and I put it on a character that does not have stealth proficiency, they will have 2x proficiency bonus to stealth. If I make a ring that grants expertise AND twice proficiency to stealth and I put it on a character that does not have stealth proficiency, they will have 2x proficiency bonus to stealth. In all three cases, they are identical mechanically.
Well, they are similar but not the same. If you use twice proficiency and they already have regular proficiency in that skill, they get to replace that regular proficiency. In order to use Expertise they must already have proficiency in that skill.
I don't think I understand what you are saying here.
Adding double your proficiency modifier is the same as expertise which adds double your proficiency modifier.
Basically, he is saying that the difference is restrictions to which skill is chosen (expertise requires already being proficient, twice proficiency doesn't). The end result is the same.
Even with your clarification, I don't understand the distinction IamSposta is making. We can look at this from two perspectives, but it's the same in both cases:
In terms of existing game features, any feature that I know of that grants twice proficiency only does it to a skill you are already proficient in. Likewise, expertise only applies to a skill you are already proficient in. They are identical in how the game presents them.
In homebrew terms, if I make a ring that grants twice proficiency to stealth and I put it on a character that does not have stealth proficiency, they will have 2x proficiency bonus to stealth. If I make a ring that grants expertise to stealth and I put it on a character that does not have stealth proficiency, they will have 2x proficiency bonus to stealth. If I make a ring that grants expertise AND twice proficiency to stealth and I put it on a character that does not have stealth proficiency, they will have 2x proficiency bonus to stealth. In all three cases, they are identical mechanically.
The “twice proficiency” Modifier both grants proficiency and doubles it on the sheet. The “Expertise” Modifier displays the doubled PB for the skill on the sheet without actually granting proficiency in that skill. It’s the technical difference between being able to choose a replacement proficiency for the other source or not. I don’t know how else to explain it better. They both double the presented PB on the character sheet, but one allows you to replace a duplicated skill/tool proficiency, and the other doesn’t because it doesn’t technically count as duplicated by the system.
The difference is if you put that ring on a character that does have proficiency in stealth from, say, their class feature, the Twice Proficiency ring would allow you to choose a replacement proficiency from your class and when you take the ring off you would no longer have stealth proficiency. The Expertise ring would double it while you’re wearing it and then drop the doubled PB when you take it off again, but you would still have the original proficiency. It has nothing to do with what happens to a character that doesn’t already have the base skill proficiency, and everything to do with what happens to a character that does already have the base proficiency. Make sense meow? (At least, that’s how it works with subclasses, races, and feats. I haven’t actually tried it on a magic item to see if it still works that way for them too.)
The difference is if you put that ring on a character that does have proficiency in stealth from, say, their class feature, the Twice Proficiency ring would allow you to choose a replacement proficiency from your class and when you take the ring off you would no longer have stealth proficiency. The Expertise ring would double it while you’re wearing it and then drop the doubled PB when you take it off again, but you would still have the original proficiency. It has nothing to do with what happens to a character that doesn’t already have the base skill proficiency, and everything to do with what happens to a character that does already have the base proficiency. Make sense meow? (At least, that’s how it works with subclasses, races, and feats. I haven’t actually tried it on a magic item to see if it still works that way for them too.)
If this is the case, then it's a function I was not aware of. That is good to know.
EDIT: What I would really like in the homebrew editor is something that would give proficiency to a skill you do not have and double it if you already have proficiency. Several UA features did this, but as of last time I looked for it, it was not available in the editor.
The only particularity i can see is with Stonecunning which, instead of actually becoming proficiency with the History skill lin general, let you be considered proficient (and X2 prof bonus) in it whenever you make an Intelligence (History) check related to the origin of stonework specifically. Its more limited in scope basically.
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l saw both in the homebrew maker, and l want to know if/what the difference is.
Edit: (June 12th,2022) How was this found!? I made this post 2 years ago! (Dec 24 2020) Also, aren't there rules against necroposting?
I think this is a square rectangle thing. Expertise is always double proficiency, but double proficiency can be granted without calling it expertise.
To quote the Prodigy feat...
"You gain expertise with that skill, which means your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with it."
Twice Proficiency allows you to apply double proficiency to a skill or tool under a specific situation, even if you are not already proficient in that skill or tool. Expertise allows you to double your proficiency bonus for a skill in which you are already proficient.
Examples of features & traits that use the Twice Proficiency modifier:
(Dwarves)
Stonecunning
Whenever you make an Intelligence (History) check related to the origin of stonework, you are considered proficient in the History skill and add double your proficiency bonus to the check, instead of your normal proficiency bonus.
Cleric (Knowledge Domain)
Blessings of Knowledge
At 1st level, you learn two languages of your choice. You also become proficient in your choice of two of the following skills: Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion.
Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of those skills.
Examples of features & traits that use the Expertise modifier:
Prodigy
You have a knack for learning new things. You gain the following benefits:
Expertise (Bard)
At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
Expertise (Rogue)
At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
At 6th level, you can choose two more of your proficiencies (in skills or with thieves’ tools) to gain this benefit.
D&D has a rule that if two or more sources (like class, background, etc.) both grant proficiency in the same skill or tool, then you can replace the redundant proficiency in a skill (or tool) with with proficiency in any alternative skill (or tool).
So, if you have proficiency in “Skill X” from any source, such as your background, and later gain twice proficiency in that same skill, then you can go back and select a replacement skill for the initial proficiency granted by that initial source. If you instead gain expertise in that skill, then you don’t get to replace the initial proficiency since Expertise does not grant any proficiency to count as redundant.
At least, that’s how it’s “sposta work,” and last time I tested it they did in fact work that way. But that was several months ago, and I know they are doing upgrades to the content creation software that we get to use in the homebrewer.
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Mechanically they are the same. Only difference might be how they work on character sheet like Sposta explained.
So you cant stack them with expertise and Rogue Scout Survalist feature?
Correct. No stacking.
Yep. They are the same. It's a bit confusing in the homebrew builder when you see both of them there, and then you realize they function the same.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Well, they are similar but not the same. If you use twice proficiency and they already have regular proficiency in that skill, they get to replace that regular proficiency. In order to use Expertise they must already have proficiency in that skill.
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Are there any game features in which something would give you twice proficiency when you don't already have proficiency to begin with? Because that sounds like the only difference in the two examples you just gave.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
With either of the examples I gave above (Stonecunning, or Blessings of Knowledge) it is possible that either one of them could potentially grant Twice Proficiency in a skill that is granted by another source. If a Knowledge Domain cleric already has proficiency in one of those skills from a race or background for example, then the race/background would follow the rules allowing you to take a different proficiency.
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I don't think I understand what you are saying here.
Adding double your proficiency modifier is the same as expertise which adds double your proficiency modifier.
In your two examples - BOTH provide proficiency in a particular skill as a pre-requisite for doubling the proficiency bonus.
In the case of dwarf stone cunning, if they are already proficient in history they do not get to choose some other skill to be proficient with at the time of making the history check. They just add double their proficiency when resolving the check under specific circumstances.
In the case of knowledge cleric, it gives the character two additional skill proficiencies which are then allowed to use double the proficiency modifier when resolving skill checks in those skills.
The fact that these features give proficiency in skills is entirely independent of the fact that they also grant the ability to double the proficiency modifier (expertise) when resolving those checks. The rule was cited above:
"You gain expertise with that skill, which means your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with it."
"Expertise: At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies."
"Expertise: At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies."
Expertise is just the name of the class feature that allows certain classes to double the proficiency bonus when making checks with certain skills.
"Blessing of Knowledge" is a class feature that grants proficieny in two skills as well as "Expertise" in those skills (doubling of the proficiency bonus). However, since Expertise is the name applied to the class feature rather than a general rule - the text uses the equivalent "doubles the proficiency bonus" wording but they mean exactly the same thing.
P.S. There is no way to get "double proficiency" or "twice proficiency" in a skill. A feature could give you a skill proficiency - if it matches one the character already has they can choose another but getting a skill proficiency again does not allow you to double the proficiency bonus. In order to double a proficiency bonus when resolving a skill check the text has to say that the character can double the proficiency bonus when resolving a relevant skill check explicitly.
While they give the same result i prefer model untraiined / proficient / expert.
Basically, he is saying that the difference is restrictions to which skill is chosen (expertise requires already being proficient, twice proficiency doesn't). The end result is the same.
You are correct, you don’t understand. This isn’t a point of D&D’s RAW, it’s a point about how DDB’s system functions to implement those rules. This isn’t a rules debate, but a technical difference inherent in this website’s programming.
Under RAW, if you are granted proficiency in the same thing by more than one source, you can replace that proficiency from one of those sources.
Under RAW, Blessings of Knowledge (and similar features/traits/feats) grants proficiency in various skills and allows you to double your PB for relevant checks. So the Twice Proficiency Modifier that DDB uses both grants Proficiency and it automatically doubles the associated number displayed on DDB’s character sheet. And since RAW, whenever two different things grant the same proficiency, you can replace one of them.
Under RAW, anything that grants “Expertise” allows you to double your PB for Ability checks you make with a relevant skill (or tool) that you are already proficient in/with. Since it is supposed to only apply to something you are already proficient in, it is not a second source granting you proficiency in the same thing. So even though the Modifier mechanically doubles your PB for relevant skill checks on the character sheet, it doesn’t technically grant proficiency so it doesn’t trigger the system to allow you to replace one of them if you also gain proficiency in that skill from another source.
See the difference now? One Modifier grants proficiency which triggers RAW to kick in, the other doesn’t. Make sense?
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Thanks for clearing it up
Even with your clarification, I don't understand the distinction IamSposta is making. We can look at this from two perspectives, but it's the same in both cases:
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The “twice proficiency” Modifier both grants proficiency and doubles it on the sheet. The “Expertise” Modifier displays the doubled PB for the skill on the sheet without actually granting proficiency in that skill. It’s the technical difference between being able to choose a replacement proficiency for the other source or not. I don’t know how else to explain it better. They both double the presented PB on the character sheet, but one allows you to replace a duplicated skill/tool proficiency, and the other doesn’t because it doesn’t technically count as duplicated by the system.
The difference is if you put that ring on a character that does have proficiency in stealth from, say, their class feature, the Twice Proficiency ring would allow you to choose a replacement proficiency from your class and when you take the ring off you would no longer have stealth proficiency. The Expertise ring would double it while you’re wearing it and then drop the doubled PB when you take it off again, but you would still have the original proficiency. It has nothing to do with what happens to a character that doesn’t already have the base skill proficiency, and everything to do with what happens to a character that does already have the base proficiency. Make sense meow? (At least, that’s how it works with subclasses, races, and feats. I haven’t actually tried it on a magic item to see if it still works that way for them too.)
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If this is the case, then it's a function I was not aware of. That is good to know.
EDIT: What I would really like in the homebrew editor is something that would give proficiency to a skill you do not have and double it if you already have proficiency. Several UA features did this, but as of last time I looked for it, it was not available in the editor.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The only particularity i can see is with Stonecunning which, instead of actually becoming proficiency with the History skill lin general, let you be considered proficient (and X2 prof bonus) in it whenever you make an Intelligence (History) check related to the origin of stonework specifically. Its more limited in scope basically.