But that's beside the point, which is that, just because the currently predominant game in 21st century America is not one where Keen Mind gives any real advantage, doesn't meant that a PC in, say, the Forgotten Realms won't be able to use it to aid themselves.
It doesn’t say they will either. Many gambling games don’t advertise a great deal of information about the state of the deck, so if we’re going on the basis that the game is just some abstract concept that doesn’t closely correlate to anything we know of irl, there’s no more basis supporting the idea that Keen Mind would make a notable difference than that it won’t.
Sure, but there's probably more than one game to be found. With the real-world examples we have, it's reasonable to conclude that some will, some won't and the person with Keen Mind will look for the ones that do.
While modern casinos don't present any game where player skill will let them beat the house, except for blackjack, and they probably only still do that one because your average punter who thinks they can count is still net negative, that's not way gambling happened throughout most of history. Most gambling was games played against other players, usually with both luck and skill elements. (But wagering on pure skill games like chess and pool is far from unknown.)
It doesn’t say they will either. Many gambling games don’t advertise a great deal of information about the state of the deck, so if we’re going on the basis that the game is just some abstract concept that doesn’t closely correlate to anything we know of irl, there’s no more basis supporting the idea that Keen Mind would make a notable difference than that it won’t.
In general, card counting is limited to games where cards are played or discarded face-up, but are subsequently hidden, and there is meaningful betting or strategy that occurs after those cards are hidden. In modern gambling, that mostly means blackjack -- in poker cards either remain face-up for the entire hand, or are not revealed until all betting is completed, and there's a shuffle every hand. Memory is also pretty important to trick-taking games like bridge, but isn't considered cheating, just part of being good at the game.
It doesn’t say they will either. Many gambling games don’t advertise a great deal of information about the state of the deck, so if we’re going on the basis that the game is just some abstract concept that doesn’t closely correlate to anything we know of irl, there’s no more basis supporting the idea that Keen Mind would make a notable difference than that it won’t.
In general, card counting is limited to games where cards are played or discarded face-up, but are subsequently hidden, and there is meaningful betting or strategy that occurs after those cards are hidden. In modern gambling, that mostly means blackjack -- in poker cards either remain face-up for the entire hand, or are not revealed until all betting is completed, and there's a shuffle every hand. Memory is also pretty important to trick-taking games like bridge, but isn't considered cheating, just part of being good at the game.
Also would like to repeat that in games such as poker, it is not the cards one counts but the actions and reactions of the players. Noticing their reactions on good hands vs bad hands is much easier with a good memory.
And cards are face up in poker when called. There are hands where someone wins because everyone folds but those are not very common.
100 years ago, contract bridge was just starting become The Thing. Nowadays, it's rather hard to find anyone playing it for money. Poker being The Game is only a couple of decades old. It's all regional, cultural, and prone to fads, so talking about the uselessness of the ability in relation to specific games isn't actually all that meaningful. There's plenty of games where it's applicable, plenty where it isn't, and it's probably a rare world where all the common games are one or the other.
What? My parents taught me poker in the 70s. My mom told me about poker when she was a little girl. Movies filmed in the 1930s showing poker playing cowboys. Poker has been around a while and is not a couple of decades old. I forgot, Wild Bill Hickok who died 150 years or so ago was credited with a Deadman's hand in poker. How can poker only be around a couple of decades if a hand is named by a guy that died in the 1870s.
IT's not that poker is new. It's that poker being The Game -- i.e. the game most associated in popular culture with playing cards for money -- is new. In particular it's associated with the rise of Texas Hold Em as the predominant form of the game, which is, as I understand it, closely linked to the importance of the shared cards making it easier to broadcast and comment about.
Before that, it was just one of the games. Probably still one of the better known, but not predominant the way it is now. Contract bridge matches could be front-page news. Meanwhile, in fiction, James Bond played baccarat and, again, bridge. When they made Casino Royale with Daniel Craig, they replaced baccarat with poker, because it's a much better known game now.
But that's beside the point, which is that, just because the currently predominant game in 21st century America is not one where Keen Mind gives any real advantage, doesn't meant that a PC in, say, the Forgotten Realms won't be able to use it to aid themselves.
It doesn’t say they will either. Many gambling games don’t advertise a great deal of information about the state of the deck, so if we’re going on the basis that the game is just some abstract concept that doesn’t closely correlate to anything we know of irl, there’s no more basis supporting the idea that Keen Mind would make a notable difference than that it won’t.
Evidence has been presented to the contrary. How you weigh it and how you rule for your specific table is, of course, your call. Edit: As is, of course, what games there even are to gamble on and how elaborate any anti-player house measures are.
Also would like to repeat that in games such as poker, it is not the cards one counts but the actions and reactions of the players. Noticing their reactions on good hands vs bad hands is much easier with a good memory.
And cards are face up in poker when called. There are hands where someone wins because everyone folds but those are not very common.
Card counting would be a thing in poker if it was useful. Yes, hands are face up when called, but there's nothing you can actually do with the information at that point, other than maybe get some insight into the strategy of the other players, as the hand is done and the deck will get reshuffled.
Also would like to repeat that in games such as poker, it is not the cards one counts but the actions and reactions of the players. Noticing their reactions on good hands vs bad hands is much easier with a good memory.
And cards are face up in poker when called. There are hands where someone wins because everyone folds but those are not very common.
Card counting would be a thing in poker if it was useful. Yes, hands are face up when called, but there's nothing you can actually do with the information at that point, other than maybe get some insight into the strategy of the other players, as the hand is done and the deck will get reshuffled.
Dancing the Charleston would be a thing in poker if it was useful. I was not arguing that card counting was useful in poker. I was arguing that memory (and thus Keen Mind) help in poker in other noteworthy ways. Face up hands, even if just on calls, are important in giving opportunities to link hand quality of other players in the game with their mannerisms, i.e., in learning their tells.
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Sure, but there's probably more than one game to be found. With the real-world examples we have, it's reasonable to conclude that some will, some won't and the person with Keen Mind will look for the ones that do.
While modern casinos don't present any game where player skill will let them beat the house, except for blackjack, and they probably only still do that one because your average punter who thinks they can count is still net negative, that's not way gambling happened throughout most of history. Most gambling was games played against other players, usually with both luck and skill elements. (But wagering on pure skill games like chess and pool is far from unknown.)
In general, card counting is limited to games where cards are played or discarded face-up, but are subsequently hidden, and there is meaningful betting or strategy that occurs after those cards are hidden. In modern gambling, that mostly means blackjack -- in poker cards either remain face-up for the entire hand, or are not revealed until all betting is completed, and there's a shuffle every hand. Memory is also pretty important to trick-taking games like bridge, but isn't considered cheating, just part of being good at the game.
Also would like to repeat that in games such as poker, it is not the cards one counts but the actions and reactions of the players. Noticing their reactions on good hands vs bad hands is much easier with a good memory.
And cards are face up in poker when called. There are hands where someone wins because everyone folds but those are not very common.
Evidence has been presented to the contrary. How you weigh it and how you rule for your specific table is, of course, your call. Edit: As is, of course, what games there even are to gamble on and how elaborate any anti-player house measures are.
Card counting would be a thing in poker if it was useful. Yes, hands are face up when called, but there's nothing you can actually do with the information at that point, other than maybe get some insight into the strategy of the other players, as the hand is done and the deck will get reshuffled.
Dancing the Charleston would be a thing in poker if it was useful. I was not arguing that card counting was useful in poker. I was arguing that memory (and thus Keen Mind) help in poker in other noteworthy ways. Face up hands, even if just on calls, are important in giving opportunities to link hand quality of other players in the game with their mannerisms, i.e., in learning their tells.