Any cantrip that was a Bonus Action did not use the Cast a Spell action.
They also didn't interact with War Magic, since War Magic doesn't trigger on spells that are not cast with your action.
Correct! This was an example to show that casting a spell and taking the Cast a Spell Action is, and always has been, two distinct things.
"Use your action to cast a spell" is the same thing as Cast a Spell. There are quite a few ways of casting a spell that do not require you to use your action. Including blade magic.
Any cantrip that was a Bonus Action did not use the Cast a Spell action.
They also didn't interact with War Magic, since War Magic doesn't trigger on spells that are not cast with your action.
Correct! This was an example to show that casting a spell and taking the Cast a Spell Action is, and always has been, two distinct things.
"Use your action to cast a spell" is the same thing as Cast a Spell. There are quite a few ways of casting a spell that do not require you to use your action. Including blade magic.
1) You're quoting me, but your statement here is not a direct reply to what I'm saying. The quote before that was to make a comment that had nothing to do with the specific topic I was addressing at the moment. Please try and make cogent, relevant, and specific replies. It will help a lot in continuing a conversation.
2) I disagree. Using your action to cast a spell is not the same thing as taking the Cast a Spell Action. When a Bladesinger has taken the Attack Action to make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, they have a) taken an action and b) used that action to cast a cantrip.
3) What is "blade magic?" Are you talking about Booming Blade and the like? Because those generally do take an action, unless they are Quickened or used as an Opportunity Attack granted by War Caster (err .. no longer possible given their stealth errata in Tasha's).
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
2) I disagree. Using your action to cast a spell is not the same thing as taking the Cast a Spell Action. When a Bladesinger has taken the Attack Action to make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, they have a) taken an action and b) used that action to cast a cantrip.
They have taken an action. They did not use that action to cast a cantrip. They used an attack granted by that action to cast a cantrip.
2) I disagree. Using your action to cast a spell is not the same thing as taking the Cast a Spell Action. When a Bladesinger has taken the Attack Action to make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, they have a) taken an action and b) used that action to cast a cantrip.
They have taken an action. They did not use that action to cast a cantrip. They used an attack granted by that action to cast a cantrip.
That is not a meaningful distinction in the rules. They took an action, one of the things they used that action for was to cast a cantrip. They used their action to cast a cantrip.
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Similarly when someone casts Booming Blade they have taken the Cast a Spell Action, but they have also made a melee attack as part of that action. They have taken their action and used it to make a melee attack.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
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2) I disagree. Using your action to cast a spell is not the same thing as taking the Cast a Spell Action. When a Bladesinger has taken the Attack Action to make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, they have a) taken an action and b) used that action to cast a cantrip.
They have taken an action. They did not use that action to cast a cantrip. They used an attack granted by that action to cast a cantrip.
This is untrue...see the actual language:
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks
You are not "using an attack...to cast a cantrip" you are replacing that attack with the casting of a cantrip. The attack as originally slated is not taking place in any form. Therefore, you are using your action, as allowed in this specific instance by the Bladesinger class feature, to cast a cantrip. Barring the insertion of a specifically defined action (like "Cast a Spell") into the EK war magic ability, the casting of a cantrip with your action is completed by the Bladesinger ability, and the bonus action weapon attack can take place.
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks
You are not "using an attack...to cast a cantrip" you are replacing that attack with the casting of a cantrip. The attack as originally slated is not taking place in any form. Therefore, you are using your action, as allowed in this specific instance by the Bladesinger class feature, to cast a cantrip. Barring the insertion of a specifically defined action (like "Cast a Spell") into the EK war magic ability, the casting of a cantrip with your action is completed by the Bladesinger ability, and the bonus action weapon attack can take place.
You are replacing an attack with casting a cantrip. Thus, the resource you are expending is an attack, not an action.
Honestly, though, the D&D rules are sloppily enough written that it's anyone's guess what they actually meant, and most likely no-one ever considered the combination.
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks
You are not "using an attack...to cast a cantrip" you are replacing that attack with the casting of a cantrip. The attack as originally slated is not taking place in any form. Therefore, you are using your action, as allowed in this specific instance by the Bladesinger class feature, to cast a cantrip. Barring the insertion of a specifically defined action (like "Cast a Spell") into the EK war magic ability, the casting of a cantrip with your action is completed by the Bladesinger ability, and the bonus action weapon attack can take place.
You are replacing an attack with casting a cantrip. Thus, the resource you are expending is an attack, not an action.
They're replacing an attack that was granted by an action. Therefore they cast a cantrip by using an action.
I really feel the distinction you're trying to make requires you to read between lines that simply aren't there.
And I'll be one of the first to admit the rules can be vague and unhelpful a lot of the times - but I don't feel that this is one of those occasions.
Honestly, though, the D&D rules are sloppily enough written that it's anyone's guess what they actually meant, and most likely no-one ever considered the combination.
I feel it's a little disingenuous to argue for a particular meaning of a rule only to turn around, throw your hands up, and try and invalidate any meaning behind any of the rules. And still nothing you've said has reasonably negated the assertion that a Bladesinger who takes the Attack Action and replaces one attack with a cantrip has used their action to cast a cantrip. I don't know what "expending an attack" has to do with it, the source of the spell was still the action.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Honestly, though, the D&D rules are sloppily enough written that it's anyone's guess what they actually meant, and most likely no-one ever considered the combination.
I feel it's a little disingenuous to argue for a particular meaning of a rule only to turn around, throw your hands up, and try and invalidate any meaning behind any of the rules. And still nothing you've said has reasonably negated the assertion that a Bladesinger who takes the Attack Action and replaces one attack with a cantrip has used their action to cast a cantrip. I don't know what "expending an attack" has to do with it, the source of the spell was still the action.
'Use your action' means the resource you are spending is your action. A bladesinger using the attack action and casting a cantrip as part of that action is not expending his action to cast a cantrip -- he is expending his action to attack, and expending one of the attacks granted by that action to cast a spell.
Had the wording of War Magic been "If you cast a cantrip on your action", bladesinger would clearly qualify. However, the wording specifies 'use your action'.
Honestly, though, the D&D rules are sloppily enough written that it's anyone's guess what they actually meant, and most likely no-one ever considered the combination.
I feel it's a little disingenuous to argue for a particular meaning of a rule only to turn around, throw your hands up, and try and invalidate any meaning behind any of the rules. And still nothing you've said has reasonably negated the assertion that a Bladesinger who takes the Attack Action and replaces one attack with a cantrip has used their action to cast a cantrip. I don't know what "expending an attack" has to do with it, the source of the spell was still the action.
'Use your action' means the resource you are spending is your action. A bladesinger using the attack action and casting a cantrip as part of that action is not expending his action to cast a cantrip -- he is expending his action to attack, and expending one of the attacks granted by that action to cast a spell.
Had the wording of War Magic been "If you cast a cantrip on your action", bladesinger would clearly qualify. However, the wording specifies 'use your action'.
and had it been worded "if you use your action to cast a cantrip and nothing else..." or 'If you use the Cast a Spell action to cast a cantrip..." it would be much more clear that it doesn't qualify. As written though, it stays in generics and allows for our interpretation.
I am using my action (it doesn't say what specific action I must use) to cast a spell (which i clearly do given the wording of the Bladesinger EA that I "cast a cantrip"), so I meet the criteria as written for the EK ability.
'Use your action' means the resource you are spending is your action. A bladesinger using the attack action and casting a cantrip as part of that action is not expending his action to cast a cantrip -- he is expending his action to attack, and expending one of the attacks granted by that action to cast a spell.
Had the wording of War Magic been "If you cast a cantrip on your action", bladesinger would clearly qualify. However, the wording specifies 'use your action'.
Logically "Use your action" to "make a melee attack" and "cast a spell instead of making a second melee attack" fulfills "use your action to cast a spell." You're trying to draw some sort of distinction with an intermediary step, but that doesn't change the logic that the use of the action resulted in casting the spell. Just because it also resulted in a melee attack as well and just because the spell was a replacement for a second melee attack doesn't mean that the spell wasn't a direct result of the action. Furthermore I'm pretty sure "on your action" isn't a phrasing that is used anywhere in the rules. They use "when" and "during" and "immediately after" but not "on" your action. I may be wrong, I haven't memorized the books, but I would bet at least ... $20.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
'Use your action' means the resource you are spending is your action. A bladesinger using the attack action and casting a cantrip as part of that action is not expending his action to cast a cantrip -- he is expending his action to attack, and expending one of the attacks granted by that action to cast a spell.
Had the wording of War Magic been "If you cast a cantrip on your action", bladesinger would clearly qualify. However, the wording specifies 'use your action'.
Logically "Use your action" to "make a melee attack" and "cast a spell instead of making a second melee attack" fulfills "use your action to cast a spell." You're trying to draw some sort of distinction with an intermediary step, but that doesn't change the logic that the use of the action resulted in casting the spell. Just because it also resulted in a melee attack as well and just because the spell was a replacement for a second melee attack doesn't mean that the spell wasn't a direct result of the action. Furthermore I'm pretty sure "on your action" isn't a phrasing that is used anywhere in the rules. They use "when" and "during" and "immediately after" but not "on" your action. I may be wrong, I haven't memorized the books, but I would bet at least ... $20.
"Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action."
"Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action."
Correct, and if you are multiclassed Bladesinger and use your Attack action to both make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, you have used your action to cast a cantrip, therefore you can make a weapon attack as a bonus action.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Any cantrip that was a Bonus Action did not use the Cast a Spell action.
They also didn't interact with War Magic, since War Magic doesn't trigger on spells that are not cast with your action.
Correct! This was an example to show that casting a spell and taking the Cast a Spell Action is, and always has been, two distinct things.
"Use your action to cast a spell" is the same thing as Cast a Spell. There are quite a few ways of casting a spell that do not require you to use your action. Including blade magic.
1) You're quoting me, but your statement here is not a direct reply to what I'm saying. The quote before that was to make a comment that had nothing to do with the specific topic I was addressing at the moment. Please try and make cogent, relevant, and specific replies. It will help a lot in continuing a conversation.
2) I disagree. Using your action to cast a spell is not the same thing as taking the Cast a Spell Action. When a Bladesinger has taken the Attack Action to make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, they have a) taken an action and b) used that action to cast a cantrip.
3) What is "blade magic?" Are you talking about Booming Blade and the like? Because those generally do take an action, unless they are Quickened or used as an Opportunity Attack granted by War Caster (err .. no longer possible given their stealth errata in Tasha's).
No, you can still perform the Opportunity Attack. The spellcaster serves as the point of origin, but the spell can only affect one target despite the altered range. Everything should still work. It's just that they wanted to change the range to better reflect how the spell works. It's supposed to originate from the spellcaster, not at the point of contact.
EDIT: I've already submitted this to Jeremy Crawford on Twitter for some hopeful confirmation. I'm optimistic that you can, in fact, combine the two features for some absolutely wild melee damage.
Oh! I thought of another way to cast a spell without using the Cast a Spell action. When you use the Ready action to cast and hold a spell. You still cast it, but it's technically not the Cast a Spell action. Again proving that casting a spell and the Cast a Spell action are two distinct things.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
"Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action."
Correct, and if you are multiclassed Bladesinger and use your Attack action to both make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, you have used your action to cast a cantrip, therefore you can make a weapon attack as a bonus action.
You have used your action to attack, not to cast a cantrip. The fact that your attack includes a cantrip does not mean you used your action to cast a cantrip.
"Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action."
Correct, and if you are multiclassed Bladesinger and use your Attack action to both make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, you have used your action to cast a cantrip, therefore you can make a weapon attack as a bonus action.
You have used your action to attack, not to cast a cantrip. The fact that your attack includes a cantrip does not mean you used your action to cast a cantrip.
An action was expended (Attack) and a cantrip was cast as part of that action. So, yes, they did.
You have used your action to attack, not to cast a cantrip. The fact that your attack includes a cantrip does not mean you used your action to cast a cantrip.
I disagree and I don't think it's useful to discuss this with you anymore.
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Correct! This was an example to show that casting a spell and taking the Cast a Spell Action is, and always has been, two distinct things.
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"Use your action to cast a spell" is the same thing as Cast a Spell. There are quite a few ways of casting a spell that do not require you to use your action. Including blade magic.
1) You're quoting me, but your statement here is not a direct reply to what I'm saying. The quote before that was to make a comment that had nothing to do with the specific topic I was addressing at the moment. Please try and make cogent, relevant, and specific replies. It will help a lot in continuing a conversation.
2) I disagree. Using your action to cast a spell is not the same thing as taking the Cast a Spell Action. When a Bladesinger has taken the Attack Action to make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, they have a) taken an action and b) used that action to cast a cantrip.
3) What is "blade magic?" Are you talking about Booming Blade and the like? Because those generally do take an action, unless they are Quickened or used as an Opportunity Attack granted by War Caster (err .. no longer possible given their stealth errata in Tasha's).
Canto alla vita
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
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They have taken an action. They did not use that action to cast a cantrip. They used an attack granted by that action to cast a cantrip.
That is not a meaningful distinction in the rules. They took an action, one of the things they used that action for was to cast a cantrip. They used their action to cast a cantrip.
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Similarly when someone casts Booming Blade they have taken the Cast a Spell Action, but they have also made a melee attack as part of that action. They have taken their action and used it to make a melee attack.
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To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
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This is untrue...see the actual language:
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks
You are not "using an attack...to cast a cantrip" you are replacing that attack with the casting of a cantrip. The attack as originally slated is not taking place in any form. Therefore, you are using your action, as allowed in this specific instance by the Bladesinger class feature, to cast a cantrip. Barring the insertion of a specifically defined action (like "Cast a Spell") into the EK war magic ability, the casting of a cantrip with your action is completed by the Bladesinger ability, and the bonus action weapon attack can take place.
You are replacing an attack with casting a cantrip. Thus, the resource you are expending is an attack, not an action.
Honestly, though, the D&D rules are sloppily enough written that it's anyone's guess what they actually meant, and most likely no-one ever considered the combination.
They're replacing an attack that was granted by an action. Therefore they cast a cantrip by using an action.
I really feel the distinction you're trying to make requires you to read between lines that simply aren't there.
And I'll be one of the first to admit the rules can be vague and unhelpful a lot of the times - but I don't feel that this is one of those occasions.
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I feel it's a little disingenuous to argue for a particular meaning of a rule only to turn around, throw your hands up, and try and invalidate any meaning behind any of the rules. And still nothing you've said has reasonably negated the assertion that a Bladesinger who takes the Attack Action and replaces one attack with a cantrip has used their action to cast a cantrip. I don't know what "expending an attack" has to do with it, the source of the spell was still the action.
Canto alla vita
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
'Use your action' means the resource you are spending is your action. A bladesinger using the attack action and casting a cantrip as part of that action is not expending his action to cast a cantrip -- he is expending his action to attack, and expending one of the attacks granted by that action to cast a spell.
Had the wording of War Magic been "If you cast a cantrip on your action", bladesinger would clearly qualify. However, the wording specifies 'use your action'.
and had it been worded "if you use your action to cast a cantrip and nothing else..." or 'If you use the Cast a Spell action to cast a cantrip..." it would be much more clear that it doesn't qualify. As written though, it stays in generics and allows for our interpretation.
I am using my action (it doesn't say what specific action I must use) to cast a spell (which i clearly do given the wording of the Bladesinger EA that I "cast a cantrip"), so I meet the criteria as written for the EK ability.
Logically "Use your action" to "make a melee attack" and "cast a spell instead of making a second melee attack" fulfills "use your action to cast a spell." You're trying to draw some sort of distinction with an intermediary step, but that doesn't change the logic that the use of the action resulted in casting the spell. Just because it also resulted in a melee attack as well and just because the spell was a replacement for a second melee attack doesn't mean that the spell wasn't a direct result of the action. Furthermore I'm pretty sure "on your action" isn't a phrasing that is used anywhere in the rules. They use "when" and "during" and "immediately after" but not "on" your action. I may be wrong, I haven't memorized the books, but I would bet at least ... $20.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
"Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action."
Correct, and if you are multiclassed Bladesinger and use your Attack action to both make a melee attack and cast a cantrip, you have used your action to cast a cantrip, therefore you can make a weapon attack as a bonus action.
Canto alla vita
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
No, you can still perform the Opportunity Attack. The spellcaster serves as the point of origin, but the spell can only affect one target despite the altered range. Everything should still work. It's just that they wanted to change the range to better reflect how the spell works. It's supposed to originate from the spellcaster, not at the point of contact.
EDIT:
I've already submitted this to Jeremy Crawford on Twitter for some hopeful confirmation. I'm optimistic that you can, in fact, combine the two features for some absolutely wild melee damage.
Oh! I thought of another way to cast a spell without using the Cast a Spell action. When you use the Ready action to cast and hold a spell. You still cast it, but it's technically not the Cast a Spell action. Again proving that casting a spell and the Cast a Spell action are two distinct things.
Canto alla vita
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You have used your action to attack, not to cast a cantrip. The fact that your attack includes a cantrip does not mean you used your action to cast a cantrip.
An action was expended (Attack) and a cantrip was cast as part of that action. So, yes, they did.
I disagree and I don't think it's useful to discuss this with you anymore.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!