The other day I was in a discussion about the fire damage from an ignited Web and if it would benefit from the Artificer's Arcane Firearm feature, or similar features that increase spell damage such as Radiant Soul, Spell Sculp, and Careful Spell. As in spells that work when "you cast a spell" and affect parts of a spell that may be ongoing like damage and saves.
I was told "no" for two reasons, neither of which make sense to me.
1. The first reason was that the fire damage isn't "one of the spell’s damage rolls" as defined in the feature.
2. Second, multiple people told me that "when you cast a spell" only applies to the turn the spell is cast.
A damage roll is defined in the Combat section on the PHB as:
Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.
A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.
So to me it seems that the fire damage from Web is a spell damage roll.
"Cast a spell" has no definition in the PHB beyond being an Action. For something involving "when you make a weapon attack" I can understand a 1 turn limit as I can't conceive of an instance where a martial attack could take any longer. But with spells they can be instantaneous or last 10 rounds or more. And a similarly worded feature, the Rogue's Magical Ambush, places the limit I was told is RAW for the action. "... when you cast a spell on it, the creature has disadvantage on any saving throw it makes against the spell this turn." Other similar features don't have this limiter.
I've looked at Sage Advice for an answers involving those similar features and here are the few I found. In a Tweet/Sage Advice asking about Careful Spell and Cloudkill, Crawford states that "Careful Spell is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to affect saving throws made that turn," emphasis mine. In another Sage Advice about Spell Sculpt and Storm Sphere and future saves he states, "Sculpt Spells is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to affect only saves made that turn. But RAW, it works on all the saves," emphasis again mine.
To me it seems that RAW, there is no turn limit on similarly worded features as long as it's the same spell.
But RAI these features should only apply to the spell on the turn they were cast. In which case, why not state it like in the feature Magical Ambush, or clarify in an errata? And which features were intended or not intended to be limited since many do not state a limit.
So the reason sculpt spells works on all saves RAW, is because only the choosing of which creatures are effected is limited to the casting of the spell. Then all chosen creatures automatically succeed all saves of that spell, period. Careful spell is worded somewhat similarly, but is a tougher sell.
Arcane firearm specifically applies the bonus to damage when the spell is cast. Same with radiant soul.
It is all about wording. If there is not period between "when you cast" and the effect, there is no argument to made for later turns.
I agree that careful spell is a tougher spell, especially considering it states "it's saving throw", singular.
Here is how I interpret casting a spell and features that reference it.
When you apply one of these features to a spell you cast you are altering a feature of that spell in some way (casting time, range, components, duration, effects, etc) when you "cast" the spell.
Most of these alterations like casting time and range happen as you cast and are irrelevant after the "cast a spell" action. Effects from spells with a duration of instantaneous are also (usually) irrelevant after the action has completed.
Alterations on spells that have a lasting duration and or concentration seem to be considered over once that action completes but that's where I interpret much differently.
To me, "when you cast" implies when the spell is altered, not for how long that alteration lasts.
In my eyes applying a feature that effects saves or damage (or anything within a spells effect description) is altering that effect for that spell. By the time the "cast a spell" action is over that specific instance of the spell has a different effect than it did in your spell book.
Using web as an example, the last paragraph for that casting of the spell applying Arcane Firearm would read:
"The webs are flammable. Any 5-foot cube of webs exposed to fire burns away in 1 round, dealing 2d4 fire damage to any creature that starts its turn in the fire. One of these damage rolls gains a bonus equal to 1d8."
Or maybe something like "this damage can gain a bonus of 1d8 once during the spells duration." You get where I'm going with this.
That's how I see it anyway, my own RAInterpreted since I can't find any RAW regarding "cast a spell" and persistent spells.
There isn't anything I know of in the books to support this interpretation and anything not in the books (and everything that is as well really) is up to DM.
How does throwing a torch or otherwise lighting the web on fire have anything to do with casting the spell? You can't cast the spell and ignite it on the same turn.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I thin the problem comes down to the assumtion that the damage done by the webs when they are are on fire is in relation to the spell. Frankly it is not. That bit at the end of Web is to tell you what happens when the webs catch fire. the webs do 2d4 fire damage no matter who they are lit. this ending is to make DMs lives easier than improvising a rule for how much the web would deal - however it is not due to the casting of the spell.
Second if something says "when you cast a spell" it only applies to *achem* when you cast a spell. Not whenever that spell does something after casting. There is an action calls "casting a spell." Ergo only when you take the action of casting the spell does any affect or feature involved in casting a spell take effect. You can't just change what metamagic is occuring at anytime of a spell only when you cast it. Things that happen after the initial casting are not "when you cast a spell"
Also from the PHB under actions in combat:
Cast a Spell
Spellcasters such as wizards and clerics, as well as many monsters, have access to spells and can use them to great effect in combat. Each spell has a casting time, which specifies whether the caster must use an action, a reaction, minutes, or even hours to cast the spell. Casting a spell is, therefore, not necessarily an action. Most spells do have a casting time of 1 action, so a spellcaster often uses his or her action in combat to cast such a spell. See chapter 10 for the rules on spellcasting.
There isn't anything I know of in the books to support this interpretation and anything not in the books (and everything that is as well really) is up to DM.
You're right, it would be up to the DM as it is the way. But I also don't know of anything in the books supporting that "when you cast a spell" doesn't extend the feature effects to the full duration of the spell. I'm just looking for opinions towards one interpretation or another and why.
But I do have 2 examples to support it. One is the feature Magical Ambush, the only feature I know of that starts "when you cast a spell" and includes "this turn". It sets a precedent as the terminology hasn't changed since first publication (as far as I know). And second, the metamagic feature extended spell. It changes a characteristic of the spell that obviously lasts longer than the current turn, duration.
How does throwing a torch or otherwise lighting the web on fire have anything to do with casting the spell? You can't cast the spell and ignite it on the same turn.
Well you could light it on fire on the same turn a number of ways. Cast it on top of an open flame, action surge, etc.
The thing I'm trying to discuss though is that in my mind the phrase "when you cast a spell" doesn't limit it to the same turn. I've been playing on and off for about 10 years and I never came across this interpretation until this week while discussing it with other players, so I'm trying to gather perspective on the matter.
I would just say it is not an effect of the spell and is not a spell damage roll.
It will come up again and again and again. So instead of having to figure out each instance, I would just go with it's not.
You can call it a cop out if you want, but I don't want to stop my game to figure out if every container of created oil gets a damage bonus or is it just one? Do conjured creatures get a damage bonus? How many? Are their attacks magical? (NO, they are not) If I create a rock and it rolls down a hill does it get a damage bonus?
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Web is the only spell with an explanation of what to do if on fire, and has had that detail since 3.5 at least. Grease, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, etc have no effects listed in the spell description if set on fire. In addition to that the web action of a giant spider does not catch fire like the web spell, nor do other spider's. Therefore it is a unique feature of the webs and has an undeniable relation to the Web spell. If you still disagree then consider spells like flame sphere or sickening radiance when talking about "when you cast a spell".
Second, I'm not saying that Cast a Spell isn't an action, in the cases I'm taking about it is. But even the description you quoted says it isn't always an action.
My view is that "when you cast a spell" is a trigger for an effect, not a definition of when you can no longer use it or how long it lasts. In the case of "you can add 1d8 bonus damage to one of the spells damage rolls" it's saying that well, that's exactly what you can do. With a flame sphere it has the potential to have damage rolls until the spell ends. Therefore you can add 1d8 to one of the spells damage rolls. There nothing limiting you to doing it on the turn you cast, unlike say the Magical Ambush feature that explicitly says, "this turn".
I would just say it is not an effect of the spell and is not a spell damage roll.
It will come up again and again and again. So instead of having to figure out each instance, I would just go with it's not.
You can call it a cop out if you want, but I don't want to stop my game to figure out if every container of created oil gets a damage bonus or is it just one? Do conjured creatures get a damage bonus? How many? Are their attacks magical? (NO, they are not) If I create a rock and it rolls down a hill does it get a damage bonus?
It's easy, if you can find the answer in the spell description it gets the bonus if any apply. If you don't see it there, it doesn't. And a hint, web is the only spell that has it, it's unique. Edit: in the case of being lit on fire.
Although not rigorously defined anywhere, it is pretty obvious what “when you cast a spell” means. I can certainly understand your impetus for wanting the bonus to apply when it shouldn’t, but at the minimum you are stretching logic. “When you cast a spell” is when you put the spell into effect, using the listed cast time for it in its description (or whatever other game features that may cause the particular casting to be different). It is self-evident, one might say. Any other interpretation is just playing semantic games.
My view is that "when you cast a spell" is a trigger for an effect, not a definition of when you can no longer use it or how long it lasts. In the case of "you can add 1d8 bonus damage to one of the spells damage rolls" it's saying that well, that's exactly what you can do. With a flame sphere it has the potential to have damage rolls until the spell ends. Therefore you can add 1d8 to one of the spells damage rolls. There nothing limiting you to doing it on the turn you cast, unlike say the Magical Ambush feature that explicitly says, "this turn".
That seems to be against the RAI though you might be right that RAW doesn't outright define that "casting a spell" requires the initiation of that spell (and not the continuance of its effects). However, if that is how you WANT to read it, then you need to follow the rest of RAW, which includes this: "When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a slot of that spell's level or higher, effectively "filling" a slot with the spell." So if lighting a Web on fire is "casting a spell", then it also is going to require you to expend another 2nd-level spell slot.
Also, you are correct that other webs are not given clauses to describe whether they can catch on fire in a similar way. The problem is, things aren't only flammable if the rules say they are. Do you know what else don't have descriptions of what happens when affected by fire? Baskets, rope, paper ... even candles (they are just ambiguously said to give off light for a duration, not as the result of being touched by fire)!
The slot would be expended when you first cast the spell, you don't burn another slot when your Glyph of Warding or Delayed Blast Fireball activates. And it's hard to tell when their RAI is different than their RAI. Another feature with the exact same working is the new metamagic option Transmuted Spell, it changes the damage type "when you cast a spell". If used on a Wall of Fire or Flame Sphere would anyone even attempt to argue that it changes back after that turn?
The problem is, things aren't only flammable if the rules say they are.
That's exactly my point. The flammable property on the Web spell could have been left off and no one would notice, DMs would just come up with a ruling on the spot, or use Oil's damage, or whatever they do when the PCs start a fire in the tavern. The fact that's its included leads me to believe it's very intentional. Even other spells that could benefit from the same flammable text like Grease or Plant Growth don't have it. Or they could have used a flat 5 damage like to oil to keep a somewhat consistent "on fire" damage. But they didn't.
Since these webs are created with a spell would they be magical in nature? Would a magical object burn with magical flames or regular ones? Would it matter if it was a lantern or Burning Hands that enflamed them?
This would be a lot simpler with some sort of "On fire" condition or standing in flames ruling.
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The other day I was in a discussion about the fire damage from an ignited Web and if it would benefit from the Artificer's Arcane Firearm feature, or similar features that increase spell damage such as Radiant Soul, Spell Sculp, and Careful Spell. As in spells that work when "you cast a spell" and affect parts of a spell that may be ongoing like damage and saves.
I was told "no" for two reasons, neither of which make sense to me.
1. The first reason was that the fire damage isn't "one of the spell’s damage rolls" as defined in the feature.
2. Second, multiple people told me that "when you cast a spell" only applies to the turn the spell is cast.
A damage roll is defined in the Combat section on the PHB as:
So to me it seems that the fire damage from Web is a spell damage roll.
"Cast a spell" has no definition in the PHB beyond being an Action. For something involving "when you make a weapon attack" I can understand a 1 turn limit as I can't conceive of an instance where a martial attack could take any longer. But with spells they can be instantaneous or last 10 rounds or more. And a similarly worded feature, the Rogue's Magical Ambush, places the limit I was told is RAW for the action. "... when you cast a spell on it, the creature has disadvantage on any saving throw it makes against the spell this turn." Other similar features don't have this limiter.
I've looked at Sage Advice for an answers involving those similar features and here are the few I found. In a Tweet/Sage Advice asking about Careful Spell and Cloudkill, Crawford states that "Careful Spell is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to affect saving throws made that turn," emphasis mine. In another Sage Advice about Spell Sculpt and Storm Sphere and future saves he states, "Sculpt Spells is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to affect only saves made that turn. But RAW, it works on all the saves," emphasis again mine.
To me it seems that RAW, there is no turn limit on similarly worded features as long as it's the same spell.
But RAI these features should only apply to the spell on the turn they were cast. In which case, why not state it like in the feature Magical Ambush, or clarify in an errata? And which features were intended or not intended to be limited since many do not state a limit.
I'm curious about what you all think about this.
So the reason sculpt spells works on all saves RAW, is because only the choosing of which creatures are effected is limited to the casting of the spell. Then all chosen creatures automatically succeed all saves of that spell, period. Careful spell is worded somewhat similarly, but is a tougher sell.
Arcane firearm specifically applies the bonus to damage when the spell is cast. Same with radiant soul.
It is all about wording. If there is not period between "when you cast" and the effect, there is no argument to made for later turns.
I agree that careful spell is a tougher spell, especially considering it states "it's saving throw", singular.
Here is how I interpret casting a spell and features that reference it.
When you apply one of these features to a spell you cast you are altering a feature of that spell in some way (casting time, range, components, duration, effects, etc) when you "cast" the spell.
Most of these alterations like casting time and range happen as you cast and are irrelevant after the "cast a spell" action. Effects from spells with a duration of instantaneous are also (usually) irrelevant after the action has completed.
Alterations on spells that have a lasting duration and or concentration seem to be considered over once that action completes but that's where I interpret much differently.
To me, "when you cast" implies when the spell is altered, not for how long that alteration lasts.
In my eyes applying a feature that effects saves or damage (or anything within a spells effect description) is altering that effect for that spell. By the time the "cast a spell" action is over that specific instance of the spell has a different effect than it did in your spell book.
Using web as an example, the last paragraph for that casting of the spell applying Arcane Firearm would read:
"The webs are flammable. Any 5-foot cube of webs exposed to fire burns away in 1 round, dealing 2d4 fire damage to any creature that starts its turn in the fire. One of these damage rolls gains a bonus equal to 1d8."
Or maybe something like "this damage can gain a bonus of 1d8 once during the spells duration." You get where I'm going with this.
That's how I see it anyway, my own RAInterpreted since I can't find any RAW regarding "cast a spell" and persistent spells.
There isn't anything I know of in the books to support this interpretation and anything not in the books (and everything that is as well really) is up to DM.
How does throwing a torch or otherwise lighting the web on fire have anything to do with casting the spell? You can't cast the spell and ignite it on the same turn.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I thin the problem comes down to the assumtion that the damage done by the webs when they are are on fire is in relation to the spell. Frankly it is not. That bit at the end of Web is to tell you what happens when the webs catch fire. the webs do 2d4 fire damage no matter who they are lit. this ending is to make DMs lives easier than improvising a rule for how much the web would deal - however it is not due to the casting of the spell.
Second if something says "when you cast a spell" it only applies to *achem* when you cast a spell. Not whenever that spell does something after casting. There is an action calls "casting a spell." Ergo only when you take the action of casting the spell does any affect or feature involved in casting a spell take effect. You can't just change what metamagic is occuring at anytime of a spell only when you cast it. Things that happen after the initial casting are not "when you cast a spell"
Also from the PHB under actions in combat:
You're right, it would be up to the DM as it is the way. But I also don't know of anything in the books supporting that "when you cast a spell" doesn't extend the feature effects to the full duration of the spell. I'm just looking for opinions towards one interpretation or another and why.
But I do have 2 examples to support it. One is the feature Magical Ambush, the only feature I know of that starts "when you cast a spell" and includes "this turn". It sets a precedent as the terminology hasn't changed since first publication (as far as I know). And second, the metamagic feature extended spell. It changes a characteristic of the spell that obviously lasts longer than the current turn, duration.
But yes, everything is always a DMs call.
Well you could light it on fire on the same turn a number of ways. Cast it on top of an open flame, action surge, etc.
The thing I'm trying to discuss though is that in my mind the phrase "when you cast a spell" doesn't limit it to the same turn. I've been playing on and off for about 10 years and I never came across this interpretation until this week while discussing it with other players, so I'm trying to gather perspective on the matter.
I would just say it is not an effect of the spell and is not a spell damage roll.
It will come up again and again and again. So instead of having to figure out each instance, I would just go with it's not.
You can call it a cop out if you want, but I don't want to stop my game to figure out if every container of created oil gets a damage bonus or is it just one? Do conjured creatures get a damage bonus? How many? Are their attacks magical? (NO, they are not) If I create a rock and it rolls down a hill does it get a damage bonus?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
@hollowtpm
Web is the only spell with an explanation of what to do if on fire, and has had that detail since 3.5 at least. Grease, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, etc have no effects listed in the spell description if set on fire. In addition to that the web action of a giant spider does not catch fire like the web spell, nor do other spider's. Therefore it is a unique feature of the webs and has an undeniable relation to the Web spell. If you still disagree then consider spells like flame sphere or sickening radiance when talking about "when you cast a spell".
Second, I'm not saying that Cast a Spell isn't an action, in the cases I'm taking about it is. But even the description you quoted says it isn't always an action.
My view is that "when you cast a spell" is a trigger for an effect, not a definition of when you can no longer use it or how long it lasts. In the case of "you can add 1d8 bonus damage to one of the spells damage rolls" it's saying that well, that's exactly what you can do. With a flame sphere it has the potential to have damage rolls until the spell ends. Therefore you can add 1d8 to one of the spells damage rolls. There nothing limiting you to doing it on the turn you cast, unlike say the Magical Ambush feature that explicitly says, "this turn".
It's easy, if you can find the answer in the spell description it gets the bonus if any apply. If you don't see it there, it doesn't. And a hint, web is the only spell that has it, it's unique. Edit: in the case of being lit on fire.
Although not rigorously defined anywhere, it is pretty obvious what “when you cast a spell” means. I can certainly understand your impetus for wanting the bonus to apply when it shouldn’t, but at the minimum you are stretching logic. “When you cast a spell” is when you put the spell into effect, using the listed cast time for it in its description (or whatever other game features that may cause the particular casting to be different). It is self-evident, one might say. Any other interpretation is just playing semantic games.
That seems to be against the RAI though you might be right that RAW doesn't outright define that "casting a spell" requires the initiation of that spell (and not the continuance of its effects). However, if that is how you WANT to read it, then you need to follow the rest of RAW, which includes this: "When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a slot of that spell's level or higher, effectively "filling" a slot with the spell." So if lighting a Web on fire is "casting a spell", then it also is going to require you to expend another 2nd-level spell slot.
Also, you are correct that other webs are not given clauses to describe whether they can catch on fire in a similar way. The problem is, things aren't only flammable if the rules say they are. Do you know what else don't have descriptions of what happens when affected by fire? Baskets, rope, paper ... even candles (they are just ambiguously said to give off light for a duration, not as the result of being touched by fire)!
The slot would be expended when you first cast the spell, you don't burn another slot when your Glyph of Warding or Delayed Blast Fireball activates. And it's hard to tell when their RAI is different than their RAI. Another feature with the exact same working is the new metamagic option Transmuted Spell, it changes the damage type "when you cast a spell". If used on a Wall of Fire or Flame Sphere would anyone even attempt to argue that it changes back after that turn?
That's exactly my point. The flammable property on the Web spell could have been left off and no one would notice, DMs would just come up with a ruling on the spot, or use Oil's damage, or whatever they do when the PCs start a fire in the tavern. The fact that's its included leads me to believe it's very intentional. Even other spells that could benefit from the same flammable text like Grease or Plant Growth don't have it. Or they could have used a flat 5 damage like to oil to keep a somewhat consistent "on fire" damage. But they didn't.
Since these webs are created with a spell would they be magical in nature? Would a magical object burn with magical flames or regular ones? Would it matter if it was a lantern or Burning Hands that enflamed them?
This would be a lot simpler with some sort of "On fire" condition or standing in flames ruling.