In my homebrew world (which I'll actually use someday ha ha), the drow live not underground, but in the polar and sub-polar regions where night-time can last for months. Their society is full of half-drow who handle affairs and administration during day-time hours (which, again, can last for months). They craft cities of magical ice and are experts at cold magic and arctic survival. There's also a nomadic branch of the culture who travel in warmer climes and trade their wares (like a magical ice that only melts in a forge and can thus be crafted into weapons or jewelry and such, or "rimesilk," a cooling fabric made from the webs of ice spiders), so while the drow are considered exotic and weird, they're not reviled as in other worlds.
To say nothing of the drow ships sometimes known to raid outlanders at night, Viking-style...
I should note that they're also refugees from another multiverse, and no longer have any ties to Lolth or the Underdark (though they are still a matriarchal theocracy with a spider motif).
BobbyFrankenstein> I like that. It makes me wonder why I haven't seem more arctic elves.
Lyxen> I've not read your post, and I won't from here on. You're quoting sources that disagree with your conclusion, sometimes explicitly. That's either trolling, or an incomprehensible level of selective reading. I don't know why you have this personal investment in the racial status of dwarves, but I'm not interested in finding out or engaging with you further in this thread.
Dwarves in Norse Mythology were sometimes called Svartalfar, or "Dark Elves". Whether or not this was intended to say that Nidavellir (the typical name for dwarves) and Svartalfar were the same is unknown and a matter of debate, but it is quite commonly considered a correct interpretation to say that Svartalfar (Dark Elves) indeed were dwarves.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
BobbyFrankenstein> I like that. It makes me wonder why I haven't seem more arctic elves.
I mean, given the Germanic & Norse origin of the concept, it does make a kind of sense...
Actually yeah. Come to think of it, I've always thought the association Tolkien started between elves and bows was due to the Norse god Uller being an archer and an elf. Uller was also the god of skiing, so you could just as well associate elves with skiing. :)
I know that there are discrepancies in mythology. And so do you. For one thing, it's simply not worth fighting over which side of the discrepancy is correct. For another, is it really worth your time to be fighting online with someone you'll never meet?
My suggestion is to stop fighting and leave this thread with your own ideas on the matter, but take into account the other person's opinion, and be a little more accepting to their idea. However, it is not okay to say that racism should be a part of D&D, as D&D is meant to be a fantasy role-playing game, not meant to be the most realistic thing of all time, and to clarify, my opinion is that racism is in no way, shape, or form okay. If realism were to be incorporated in D&D to the fullest extent, then D&D would be less of a game and more of a harrowing experience. Goodbye.
(P.S. For future reference, .com stands for company, and .org stands for organization. .org sites are nonprofit and tend to have more reliable information.)
Drow are pale skinned because they live underground and have no need for melanin VS Drow are dark skinned because it helps them blend into the shadows.
Both make evolutionary sense, both can co-exist in the same world.
I rest my case.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Drow are pale skinned because they live underground and have no need for melanin VS Drow are dark skinned because it helps them blend into the shadows.
Both make evolutionary sense, both can co-exist in the same world.
I rest my case.
Well, if we really want to get into evolution, then the time frame is way too short for that adaptation to have taken place. Not only is human evolution vastly slower than would make sense for that change to have taken place within cultural memory, if you look at an elven lifespan, it would multiply the time required by what? A factor of 8 or so?
Drow are pale skinned because they live underground and have no need for melanin VS Drow are dark skinned because it helps them blend into the shadows.
Both make evolutionary sense, both can co-exist in the same world.
I rest my case.
Well, if we really want to get into evolution, then the time frame is way too short for that adaptation to have taken place. Not only is human evolution vastly slower than would make sense for that change to have taken place within cultural memory, if you look at an elven lifespan, it would multiply the time required by what? A factor of 8 or so?
Drow in the Forgotten Realms were cursed with dark skin and forced to dwell underground for their choice to side with Lolth. Having a race of evil people with dark skin is already problematic enough, but having it be a curse is way, way worse.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Drow are pale skinned because they live underground and have no need for melanin VS Drow are dark skinned because it helps them blend into the shadows.
Both make evolutionary sense, both can co-exist in the same world.
I rest my case.
Well, if we really want to get into evolution, then the time frame is way too short for that adaptation to have taken place. Not only is human evolution vastly slower than would make sense for that change to have taken place within cultural memory, if you look at an elven lifespan, it would multiply the time required by what? A factor of 8 or so?
I agree, and disagree. You are solely basing that on human evolution, not the evolution of a mythical species so for all we know, the rate of beneficial adaptions occurring in drow could be far higher. When I said it made evolutionary sense, I was more meaning that both adaptations would have been beneficial to their environment, wether they got them through evolution in the traditional sense or were cursed by a god with a bad case of the mondays.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Drow are pale skinned because they live underground and have no need for melanin VS Drow are dark skinned because it helps them blend into the shadows.
Both make evolutionary sense, both can co-exist in the same world.
I rest my case.
Well, if we really want to get into evolution, then the time frame is way too short for that adaptation to have taken place. Not only is human evolution vastly slower than would make sense for that change to have taken place within cultural memory, if you look at an elven lifespan, it would multiply the time required by what? A factor of 8 or so?
Drow in the Forgotten Realms were cursed with dark skin and forced to dwell underground for their choice to side with Lolth. Having a race of evil people with dark skin is already problematic enough, but having it be a curse is way, way worse.
Well, you are leaving a crucial detail ie. the fact that they were already dark skinned before they were cursed. And the color of their skin before the transformation was more in line of what we see as Black people in human race. And they were nor inherently evil back then but were cursed because they went too far in their retaliation during Crown Wars.
What the curse did was transform their skin color to something that is not really comparable to our real life examples.
I agree, and disagree. You are solely basing that on human evolution, not the evolution of a mythical species so for all we know, the rate of beneficial adaptions occurring in drow could be far higher. When I said it made evolutionary sense, I was more meaning that both adaptations would have been beneficial to their environment, wether they got them through evolution in the traditional sense or were cursed by a god with a bad case of the mondays.
I was basing it on real-world evolution because we have no frame of reference for projecting mythical adaptation.
Thats actually pretty cool, for me the reason they are so black is because they were forced out of the light of the sun and moon and stars, (all stuff the regular elves worship) and so their color is now the absence of those lights.
Drow are ebony because Corellon Larethian cursed them?
The book "Evermeet Island of the Elves" has a story of the Drow? D and D has drow elves from Garry Gygax who may have taken it from Norse cosmology. Drow skin color may be brown, black, dark blue, purple, violet, or some similar color. There is always the possibility of a skin color mutation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
In my homebrew world (which I'll actually use someday ha ha), the drow live not underground, but in the polar and sub-polar regions where night-time can last for months. Their society is full of half-drow who handle affairs and administration during day-time hours (which, again, can last for months). They craft cities of magical ice and are experts at cold magic and arctic survival. There's also a nomadic branch of the culture who travel in warmer climes and trade their wares (like a magical ice that only melts in a forge and can thus be crafted into weapons or jewelry and such, or "rimesilk," a cooling fabric made from the webs of ice spiders), so while the drow are considered exotic and weird, they're not reviled as in other worlds.
To say nothing of the drow ships sometimes known to raid outlanders at night, Viking-style...
I should note that they're also refugees from another multiverse, and no longer have any ties to Lolth or the Underdark (though they are still a matriarchal theocracy with a spider motif).
BobbyFrankenstein> I like that. It makes me wonder why I haven't seem more arctic elves.
Lyxen> I've not read your post, and I won't from here on. You're quoting sources that disagree with your conclusion, sometimes explicitly. That's either trolling, or an incomprehensible level of selective reading. I don't know why you have this personal investment in the racial status of dwarves, but I'm not interested in finding out or engaging with you further in this thread.
Here are a couple sources:
https://blog.vkngjewelry.com/norse-dwarves/
https://norse-mythology.org/cosmology/the-nine-worlds/svartalfheim/
Dwarves in Norse Mythology were sometimes called Svartalfar, or "Dark Elves". Whether or not this was intended to say that Nidavellir (the typical name for dwarves) and Svartalfar were the same is unknown and a matter of debate, but it is quite commonly considered a correct interpretation to say that Svartalfar (Dark Elves) indeed were dwarves.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I mean, given the Germanic & Norse origin of the concept, it does make a kind of sense...
Actually yeah. Come to think of it, I've always thought the association Tolkien started between elves and bows was due to the Norse god Uller being an archer and an elf. Uller was also the god of skiing, so you could just as well associate elves with skiing. :)
Listen.
I know that there are discrepancies in mythology. And so do you. For one thing, it's simply not worth fighting over which side of the discrepancy is correct. For another, is it really worth your time to be fighting online with someone you'll never meet?
My suggestion is to stop fighting and leave this thread with your own ideas on the matter, but take into account the other person's opinion, and be a little more accepting to their idea. However, it is not okay to say that racism should be a part of D&D, as D&D is meant to be a fantasy role-playing game, not meant to be the most realistic thing of all time, and to clarify, my opinion is that racism is in no way, shape, or form okay. If realism were to be incorporated in D&D to the fullest extent, then D&D would be less of a game and more of a harrowing experience. Goodbye.
(P.S. For future reference, .com stands for company, and .org stands for organization. .org sites are nonprofit and tend to have more reliable information.)
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXVIII?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
Drow are pale skinned because they live underground and have no need for melanin VS Drow are dark skinned because it helps them blend into the shadows.
Both make evolutionary sense, both can co-exist in the same world.
I rest my case.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Well, if we really want to get into evolution, then the time frame is way too short for that adaptation to have taken place. Not only is human evolution vastly slower than would make sense for that change to have taken place within cultural memory, if you look at an elven lifespan, it would multiply the time required by what? A factor of 8 or so?
Drow in the Forgotten Realms were cursed with dark skin and forced to dwell underground for their choice to side with Lolth. Having a race of evil people with dark skin is already problematic enough, but having it be a curse is way, way worse.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I agree, and disagree. You are solely basing that on human evolution, not the evolution of a mythical species so for all we know, the rate of beneficial adaptions occurring in drow could be far higher. When I said it made evolutionary sense, I was more meaning that both adaptations would have been beneficial to their environment, wether they got them through evolution in the traditional sense or were cursed by a god with a bad case of the mondays.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Well, you are leaving a crucial detail ie. the fact that they were already dark skinned before they were cursed. And the color of their skin before the transformation was more in line of what we see as Black people in human race. And they were nor inherently evil back then but were cursed because they went too far in their retaliation during Crown Wars.
What the curse did was transform their skin color to something that is not really comparable to our real life examples.
"Well, you are leaving a crucial detail ie. the fact that they were already dark skinned before they were cursed."
That varies with which book, but even so, why is that crucial?
"And the color of their skin before the transformation was more in line of what we see as Black people in human race."
So the punishment was to get 'superblack'? How is that better?
"And they were nor inherently evil back then but were cursed because they went too far in their retaliation during Crown Wars."
What's the significance of that to this discussion?
I was basing it on real-world evolution because we have no frame of reference for projecting mythical adaptation.
Drow are ebony because Corellon Larethian cursed them?
The book "Evermeet Island of the Elves" has a story of the Drow? D and D has drow elves from Garry Gygax who may have taken it from Norse cosmology. Drow skin color may be brown, black, dark blue, purple, violet, or some similar color. There is always the possibility of a skin color mutation.