Whereas the "good" "evil" dichotomy is a lot more well defined, I'm still sort of confused about the lawful/chaotic dichotomy.
I've always taken it based off their respect and willingness to adhere to systems that they are opposed to. For example, I'd say a LE character would refrain from massacring kids in an orphanage because they grudgingly cede authority to the law. Whereas a CE character would do it regardless. Or, a LG character will take prisoner and take to trial a villain, whereas a CG character would slit their throat while they sleep.
mostly it is how much you care about what others think and the rules cg would be a win at all cost kind of rebel they do whats good but the methods and legality is questionable.lg is the boring paladin archertype.
mostly it is how much you care about what others think and the rules cg would be a win at all cost kind of rebel they do whats good but the methods and legality is questionable.lg is the boring paladin archertype.
Those are stereotypes, not alignments. Chaotic is an individual mindset, lawful is a group mindset. Similarly, chaotic people often (but not always) have goals focused on single people (including themselves), and lawful people think more about large groups or society as a whole.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Law and chaos is about means, good and evil is about ends. A lawful character doesn’t necessarily care about the law (see Captain America: The Winter Soldier), but they always make sure their ends, whether selfish or selfless, are achieved by honorable means. Chaotic characters, on the other hand, will do whatever they feel is right (or will benefit them), and have no code. A Lawful Good character is unlikely, depending on their code, to backstab a villain, while a Chaotic Good character will do it happily.
Being able to see value in and have empathy for another sapient being is the threshold for being “good.” It takes an unusually broad definition of “good” to slit someone’s throat in their sleep.
In my personal view, it’s better to think of alignments as a ring around True Neutral, which is where most of us spend our lives. True neutral isn’t “I gave a kid an ice cream cone yesterday, so I have to poison them today.” That’s mental illness and outside the scope of alignments. True neutral is what we do every day; zigzag from kind to selfish and from patient to overheated - all within a pretty tight set of boundaries. The other eight alignments surround True Neutral like the points on a compass. Each compass point is a sort of personal code that a person tries to live by and which they apply to whatever new fact set they encounter. So how would we behave if we discovered the Earth were hollow and full of giant gorillas?
Just watch this video which explains where the Law/Chaos "axis" comes from in the first place (Michael Moorcock's fiction), how it relates to good and evil "axis", and (as the host is an attorney) some insight into how alignment "codes" can be interpreted and mapped to actual moral/ethical decision making. LegalKimchee is a relatively new YouTuber but definitely one of the smarter ones.
At the end of the day though, how the alignment grid/system/spectrum/matrix/whatever works or maps to an in game "reality" is up the DM, which can get a bit funky because moral arbiter isn't necessarily a lot of DMs strong suits. Personally, I run alignments as a component to a PCs ideal system which the PC tries imperfectly to live up to.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Just watch this video which explains where the Law/Chaos "axis" comes from in the first place (Michael Moorcock's fiction
Poul Anderson, actually. Moorcock got the inspiration from Three Hearts & Three Lions, which also was a big influence on D&D (Paladins, Trolls the regenerate)
Just watch this video which explains where the Law/Chaos "axis" comes from in the first place (Michael Moorcock's fiction
Poul Anderson, actually. Moorcock got the inspiration from Three Hearts & Three Lions, which also was a big influence on D&D (Paladins, Trolls the regenerate)
Anderson:Moorcock is sort of Joyce:Beckett in my book, sort of literally. I don't think D&D would have been quite the product of the 70s without the sensibility break in fantasy Moorcock broke ground on. While sure the tropes are named etc., there's a prism of Moorcock and let's call it "heavy metal" aesthetics attached to monsters and magic and occult in D&D that I think put more of a driver to where D&D eventually landed. But that's more a taste and what I take out and into D&D than any sort of real argument. I should actually read Anderson again at some point, but only so many reference points.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Law vs. Chaos comes down to whar is something guiding a person.
Law can be the literal law, or a personal code. As an example, a Lawful Evil and a Lawful Good character might each have their own personal code they adhere to. The LE character chooses victims a specific way or has a ritual for whatever makes them evil... while the LG character can't know all of the laws, so they just do what they think should be right wherever they are, even if it breaks a law.
Chaos on the other hand is about rejecting codes and laws. Elves are Chaotic Good beings in the PHB. They believe in having a good time and letting everyone do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Chaotic Evil characters on the other hand might just shout, "Don't take my freedom!" And slap a cashier when they point at a sign saying, "No shoes, no shirt, no service." A really pompas chaotic character might even point out that the lawful mindset is arbitrary because they chose to value those things, so why not choose new things all the time?
Law vs. Chaos comes down to whar is something guiding a person.
Law can be the literal law, or a personal code. As an example, a Lawful Evil and a Lawful Good character might each have their own personal code they adhere to. The LE character chooses victims a specific way or has a ritual for whatever makes them evil... while the LG character can't know all of the laws, so they just do what they think should be right wherever they are, even if it breaks a law.
Chaos on the other hand is about rejecting codes and laws. Elves are Chaotic Good beings in the PHB. They believe in having a good time and letting everyone do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Chaotic Evil characters on the other hand might just shout, "Don't take my freedom!" And slap a cashier when they point at a sign saying, "No shoes, no shirt, no service." A really pompas chaotic character might even point out that the lawful mindset is arbitrary because they chose to value those things, so why not choose new things all the time?
So what makes a CG char good? I've always seen having a personal code being akin to morality, because it determines what one can or cannot do. And at this point I stop myself from talking about ethics and moral maxims.
I think it pays to look at the Outer Planes in this matter. The Lawful planes are based on a clear structure that keeps all their sub-systems in place and directed towards the same ends. Mechanicus is literally a machine based on powers of two, Everyone in Baator has a rank with superiors and subjects with all ultimately bowing to Asmodius, Celestia has seven universal steps of purification. The Chaotic Planes, on the other hand, are ever shifting, and elements within them often clash. Arboria has extreme and rapidly changing weather, object pop into and out of existence in Limbo, and the Abyss fights itself almost as much as it fights Baator.
So from this, Lawful people prefer clearly defined structures and systems, while Chaotic ones prefer change and accept internal conflict.
I think it pays to look at the Outer Planes in this matter. The Lawful planes are based on a clear structure that keeps all their sub-systems in place and directed towards the same ends. Mechanicus is literally a machine based on powers of two, Everyone in Baator has a rank with superiors and subjects with all ultimately bowing to Asmodius, Celestia has seven universal steps of purification. The Chaotic Planes, on the other hand, are ever shifting, and elements within them often clash. Arboria has extreme and rapidly changing weather, object pop into and out of existence in Limbo, and the Abyss fights itself almost as much as it fights Baator.
So from this, Lawful people prefer clearly defined structures and systems, while Chaotic ones prefer change and accept internal conflict.
Not to be that guy but I'm reasonably sure Baator has a LOT of internal scheming and backstabbing going on. There is a clear hierarchy, yes, but its ever changing and with lots of shuffling going on.
Law vs. Chaos comes down to whar is something guiding a person.
Law can be the literal law, or a personal code. As an example, a Lawful Evil and a Lawful Good character might each have their own personal code they adhere to. The LE character chooses victims a specific way or has a ritual for whatever makes them evil... while the LG character can't know all of the laws, so they just do what they think should be right wherever they are, even if it breaks a law.
Chaos on the other hand is about rejecting codes and laws. Elves are Chaotic Good beings in the PHB. They believe in having a good time and letting everyone do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Chaotic Evil characters on the other hand might just shout, "Don't take my freedom!" And slap a cashier when they point at a sign saying, "No shoes, no shirt, no service." A really pompas chaotic character might even point out that the lawful mindset is arbitrary because they chose to value those things, so why not choose new things all the time?
So what makes a CG char good? I've always seen having a personal code being akin to morality, because it determines what one can or cannot do. And at this point I stop myself from talking about ethics and moral maxims.
Some people do good because they enjoy it. Maybe it fills them with self-esteem, maybe it's for the sweet sweet treasure along the way. Maybe they just don't enjoy feeling guilty whenever they hurt someone. Being a good person requires empathy much more than anything moral.
I feel most strongly with the Michael motorcycle take on law and chaos. Chaos is about making change, and law is about maintaining.
He shows the extremes in his worlds with a realm overtaken with chaos being a morass of ever shifting features. Nothing lasting more than a short time. Nothing can be kept there as everything shifts and changes constantly.
The law opposite is a perfectly static worl, and to achieve that it is an entirely barren wasteland devoid of any kind of life.
These are the extreme sides of it but scaling it down you have chaotic beings wanting to change things away from what they are, and lawful beings trying to maintain the status quo.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I think it pays to look at the Outer Planes in this matter. The Lawful planes are based on a clear structure that keeps all their sub-systems in place and directed towards the same ends. Mechanicus is literally a machine based on powers of two, Everyone in Baator has a rank with superiors and subjects with all ultimately bowing to Asmodius, Celestia has seven universal steps of purification. The Chaotic Planes, on the other hand, are ever shifting, and elements within them often clash. Arboria has extreme and rapidly changing weather, object pop into and out of existence in Limbo, and the Abyss fights itself almost as much as it fights Baator.
So from this, Lawful people prefer clearly defined structures and systems, while Chaotic ones prefer change and accept internal conflict.
Not to be that guy but I'm reasonably sure Baator has a LOT of internal scheming and backstabbing going on. There is a clear hierarchy, yes, but its ever changing and with lots of shuffling going on.
This is true, and I didn't take that into account. However, even if individuals move up or down, the hierarchy remains the same, and even the jostling of position serves Asmodius' purpose of bringing the most useful minions to the top. That may be less to do with Baator however and more Asmodius being a master of "I totally meant to do that". Still, I'm pretty sure he's quickly shut down any infighting that doesn't benefit him.
Whereas the "good" "evil" dichotomy is a lot more well defined, I'm still sort of confused about the lawful/chaotic dichotomy.
I've always taken it based off their respect and willingness to adhere to systems that they are opposed to. For example, I'd say a LE character would refrain from massacring kids in an orphanage because they grudgingly cede authority to the law. Whereas a CE character would do it regardless. Or, a LG character will take prisoner and take to trial a villain, whereas a CG character would slit their throat while they sleep.
"h"
mostly it is how much you care about what others think and the rules cg would be a win at all cost kind of rebel they do whats good but the methods and legality is questionable.lg is the boring paladin archertype.
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
Those are stereotypes, not alignments. Chaotic is an individual mindset, lawful is a group mindset. Similarly, chaotic people often (but not always) have goals focused on single people (including themselves), and lawful people think more about large groups or society as a whole.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Law and chaos is about means, good and evil is about ends. A lawful character doesn’t necessarily care about the law (see Captain America: The Winter Soldier), but they always make sure their ends, whether selfish or selfless, are achieved by honorable means. Chaotic characters, on the other hand, will do whatever they feel is right (or will benefit them), and have no code. A Lawful Good character is unlikely, depending on their code, to backstab a villain, while a Chaotic Good character will do it happily.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Being able to see value in and have empathy for another sapient being is the threshold for being “good.” It takes an unusually broad definition of “good” to slit someone’s throat in their sleep.
In my personal view, it’s better to think of alignments as a ring around True Neutral, which is where most of us spend our lives. True neutral isn’t “I gave a kid an ice cream cone yesterday, so I have to poison them today.” That’s mental illness and outside the scope of alignments. True neutral is what we do every day; zigzag from kind to selfish and from patient to overheated - all within a pretty tight set of boundaries. The other eight alignments surround True Neutral like the points on a compass. Each compass point is a sort of personal code that a person tries to live by and which they apply to whatever new fact set they encounter. So how would we behave if we discovered the Earth were hollow and full of giant gorillas?
G/L G/C
Preserve ——— Share ———Appreciate
Understand———Status Quo——React
Steal ——————Ruin———Conquer
E/L. E/C
Just watch this video which explains where the Law/Chaos "axis" comes from in the first place (Michael Moorcock's fiction), how it relates to good and evil "axis", and (as the host is an attorney) some insight into how alignment "codes" can be interpreted and mapped to actual moral/ethical decision making. LegalKimchee is a relatively new YouTuber but definitely one of the smarter ones.
At the end of the day though, how the alignment grid/system/spectrum/matrix/whatever works or maps to an in game "reality" is up the DM, which can get a bit funky because moral arbiter isn't necessarily a lot of DMs strong suits. Personally, I run alignments as a component to a PCs ideal system which the PC tries imperfectly to live up to.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Poul Anderson, actually. Moorcock got the inspiration from Three Hearts & Three Lions, which also was a big influence on D&D (Paladins, Trolls the regenerate)
Anderson:Moorcock is sort of Joyce:Beckett in my book, sort of literally. I don't think D&D would have been quite the product of the 70s without the sensibility break in fantasy Moorcock broke ground on. While sure the tropes are named etc., there's a prism of Moorcock and let's call it "heavy metal" aesthetics attached to monsters and magic and occult in D&D that I think put more of a driver to where D&D eventually landed. But that's more a taste and what I take out and into D&D than any sort of real argument. I should actually read Anderson again at some point, but only so many reference points.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Law vs. Chaos comes down to whar is something guiding a person.
Law can be the literal law, or a personal code. As an example, a Lawful Evil and a Lawful Good character might each have their own personal code they adhere to. The LE character chooses victims a specific way or has a ritual for whatever makes them evil... while the LG character can't know all of the laws, so they just do what they think should be right wherever they are, even if it breaks a law.
Chaos on the other hand is about rejecting codes and laws. Elves are Chaotic Good beings in the PHB. They believe in having a good time and letting everyone do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Chaotic Evil characters on the other hand might just shout, "Don't take my freedom!" And slap a cashier when they point at a sign saying, "No shoes, no shirt, no service." A really pompas chaotic character might even point out that the lawful mindset is arbitrary because they chose to value those things, so why not choose new things all the time?
So what makes a CG char good? I've always seen having a personal code being akin to morality, because it determines what one can or cannot do. And at this point I stop myself from talking about ethics and moral maxims.
"h"
I think it pays to look at the Outer Planes in this matter. The Lawful planes are based on a clear structure that keeps all their sub-systems in place and directed towards the same ends. Mechanicus is literally a machine based on powers of two, Everyone in Baator has a rank with superiors and subjects with all ultimately bowing to Asmodius, Celestia has seven universal steps of purification. The Chaotic Planes, on the other hand, are ever shifting, and elements within them often clash. Arboria has extreme and rapidly changing weather, object pop into and out of existence in Limbo, and the Abyss fights itself almost as much as it fights Baator.
So from this, Lawful people prefer clearly defined structures and systems, while Chaotic ones prefer change and accept internal conflict.
Not to be that guy but I'm reasonably sure Baator has a LOT of internal scheming and backstabbing going on. There is a clear hierarchy, yes, but its ever changing and with lots of shuffling going on.
"h"
Some people do good because they enjoy it. Maybe it fills them with self-esteem, maybe it's for the sweet sweet treasure along the way. Maybe they just don't enjoy feeling guilty whenever they hurt someone. Being a good person requires empathy much more than anything moral.
I feel most strongly with the Michael motorcycle take on law and chaos. Chaos is about making change, and law is about maintaining.
He shows the extremes in his worlds with a realm overtaken with chaos being a morass of ever shifting features. Nothing lasting more than a short time. Nothing can be kept there as everything shifts and changes constantly.
The law opposite is a perfectly static worl, and to achieve that it is an entirely barren wasteland devoid of any kind of life.
These are the extreme sides of it but scaling it down you have chaotic beings wanting to change things away from what they are, and lawful beings trying to maintain the status quo.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
This is true, and I didn't take that into account. However, even if individuals move up or down, the hierarchy remains the same, and even the jostling of position serves Asmodius' purpose of bringing the most useful minions to the top. That may be less to do with Baator however and more Asmodius being a master of "I totally meant to do that". Still, I'm pretty sure he's quickly shut down any infighting that doesn't benefit him.