I'm sure those new "Drow" are at the very least a combine idea between WotC and R.A. Salvatore. But from what I learned from the latter :/ I understand why he would just forget the other preexisting "good" Drow that already existed (mostly but not only, Eilistraeean Drow).
I'm sure those new "Drow" are at the very least a combine idea between WotC and R.A. Salvatore. But from what I learned from the latter :/ I understand why he would just forget the other preexisting "good" Drow that already existed (mostly but not only, Eilistraeean Drow).
Also, R.A. Salvatore killed Chewbacca? Damn.
Yeah, old Star Wars expanded universe before Disney buy out. I forget whether he was responsible for introducing the Yuuzhan Vong into that Star Wars universe, but he clobbered Chewbacca with a weaponized moon basically, and was pretty smug about it if I remember correctly.
Back to topic, I don't know how often Salvatore has been involved in not just a Drizzt novel, but one that's arguably tied into a larger "summer of Drizzt" synergy campaign, so I don't know if that means he has to write within a more negotiated (here's a story Bible, there will be edits if you drift) sort of project, or whether the editors that be will just let him run with it. In theory continuity doesn't seem that hard with branded properties, but I'm accustomed to "story groups" contradicting themselves due to probably another entity's (probably marketings) findings.
I'm actually wondering since my most active party is 3/4 new players, whether any of them actually know Drow exist.... I don't see myself changing that, though I do have a location in the homebrew section of my game world where the retro folks with the photonegative look and the power 'staches would fit in well.
Speaking of, as the appearance of Drow have been debated over a lot threads in this space, I got to thinking maybe Drow looks are similar to Klingons in Star Trek. Though the actual Klingons in my game are the Hobgoblins.
Wait, Salvatore was responsible for the Chewbacca moon incident? I’ve never really been a fan of his, but that sure doesn’t improve him in my opinion.
Interesting, Vector Prime, the novel where Salvatore offs Chewie was published in 1999 ... one year before Wizards got the license to do Star Wars gaming (TTRPG and cards, don't know if they did tactical minis, I think FFG made the break through there years later as part of or pursuant to getting the license that's now in de facto limbo). Maybe Salvatore was sending a message to Lucasfilm on behalf of Wizards at the time....
To make this actually relevant to the thread. Salvatore killed Chewbacca with a moon ... Ellistrae is a moon goddess... Coincidence?!? Or maybe if Ellistree fails to show in the new novels Salvatore can say "yeah, she died crashing into a wookie in another universe."
From what I read about Salvatore, he doesn't like Eilistraee and the other Dark Seldarine so doesn't feature her or anyone other.
Also, because I forgot to mention that in my original post, they've decided that from now on (it's unclear if it's a new thing or if if was always the case [though some things point to the latter]) Drow in favor with Lolth are marked by white spider motives "tattoos" on the face and body. "Any Drow that has Lolth’s favor gets these markings that creep up over the skin. The more you embrace her teachings, the more pronounced those markings become. But if you fall out of favor, they start to fade.”
It's not all "evil" Drow that has them, only those in favor with Lolth ("And not every drow has them. Lolth cult members are ‘gifted’ those markings as a result of their connection to the deity." ) but in my opinion it's a pretty useless change. At best it's a new thing Lotlh recently introduce and it's pointless - the never needed distinctive markings before - and at worst it's always been there and in this case it's pointless as an idea and a retcon.
(Matron Malice)
As I see it the only reason for such change is to further distinguish the "evil" Drow from the new surface "good" "Drow" (which is pretty much what's said in the dragon+ article), at least for the most Lolth oriented ones.
I'd like to open a discussion about the new "Drow" lore that's being introduced. For those not aware, on the D&D page for The Legend of Drizzt, and in more details in that Dragon+ article, two new societies of "Drow" have been introduced: the Aevendrow — or Starlight Elves, and the Lorendrow — or Greenshadow Elves.
Those "Drow", unlike your typical Drow don't live in the Underdark but on the surface, respectively in the far North and South. Not only that but — at least as far as I understood it — they never went underground in the first place. Those "Drow" also don't worship Lolth either, and possibly never did.
According to the Dragon+ article, there are now — and always were — at least three Drow societies ("There are whole societies of drow that did not follow Lolth into the Underdark. Two such groups are the ‘aevendrow’ and the ‘lorendrow’, or the starlight elves and the greenshadow elves respectively." ) and the one with are familiar with, the Lolth worshipping Drow from Menzoberrazan (and seemingly only Menzoberrazan) — now named Udadrow — are but a splinter group, cut off from the rest of the "Drow" ("The spider-inspired ‘udadrow’ expression of the drow elves that D&D fans currently know is based on Lolth’s influence over a pocket of elves who became isolationist, cutting themselves off from the rest of drow culture" ).
As far as I'm concerned, and I freely admit that information are so fare sparse so we can't yet say of well though out these new ideas are, I see that change as a lazy excuse to justify having more "good" Drow in D&D. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the idea of a "good" Drow. In my opinion Drow aren't "evil" by nature, it's their society that breeds the typical "evil" Drow we know, suppressing or down right killing the "good" ones that grow up in this society. But having the "evil" Drow being only an isolationistsplinter group from the rest of the Drow... No.
From what I've seen and understood, the Lore was already opening up to having more "good" Drow, especially with the cult of Eilistraee, a Drow Goddess who seeks to liberate the Drow from Lolth embrace and redeem them. If WotC wants to had new factions of "good" Drow, I think the Eilistraee route is a far superior one, having an actual splinter group breaking apart from main Drow society and perhaps having a Civil War storyline. But simply adding new "Drow" societies that have always been there but so hidden no one knew they even existed to easily get more "good" Drow... it just feel lazy.
But what are your thoughts on those changes and those new "Drow" societies they're introducing?
I think it’s a great idea! So is Menzoberranzan the only Lolth-worshipping drow city in Faerun’s Underdark?
Also, I feel that at least at the highest levels of power, the drow of Menzoberranzan have kept in touch with their counterparts on Oerth, and possibly to a limited extent with the drow of Eberron and Exandria (though contact with Eberron in particular would be sporadic at best because they serve different deities).
I'm not really inclined to jump to conclusions yet. Maybe it's just because I'm a relatively new D&D player (only been playing since 2018 and DMing since 2020) and haven't really had much time to get attached to the deeply-rooted lore of the game, but the changes seem like they could be interesting. I certainly like to include diverse factions for most player races in my own worlds.
I do agree retconning Lolth worshipers into a splinter faction feels kind of odd though. The cult of Lolth can still be a sizeable portion of drow society without necessarily casting a problematic light on each individual drow (I'm assuming that was their main reason for changing the lore, could be wrong of course).
I'd like to open a discussion about the new "Drow" lore that's being introduced. For those not aware, on the D&D page for The Legend of Drizzt, and in more details in that Dragon+ article, two new societies of "Drow" have been introduced: the Aevendrow — or Starlight Elves, and the Lorendrow — or Greenshadow Elves.
Those "Drow", unlike your typical Drow don't live in the Underdark but on the surface, respectively in the far North and South. Not only that but — at least as far as I understood it — they never went underground in the first place. Those "Drow" also don't worship Lolth either, and possibly never did.
According to the Dragon+ article, there are now — and always were — at least three Drow societies ("There are whole societies of drow that did not follow Lolth into the Underdark. Two such groups are the ‘aevendrow’ and the ‘lorendrow’, or the starlight elves and the greenshadow elves respectively." ) and the one with are familiar with, the Lolth worshipping Drow from Menzoberrazan (and seemingly only Menzoberrazan) — now named Udadrow — are but a splinter group, cut off from the rest of the "Drow" ("The spider-inspired ‘udadrow’ expression of the drow elves that D&D fans currently know is based on Lolth’s influence over a pocket of elves who became isolationist, cutting themselves off from the rest of drow culture" ).
As far as I'm concerned, and I freely admit that information are so fare sparse so we can't yet say of well though out these new ideas are, I see that change as a lazy excuse to justify having more "good" Drow in D&D. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the idea of a "good" Drow. In my opinion Drow aren't "evil" by nature, it's their society that breeds the typical "evil" Drow we know, suppressing or down right killing the "good" ones that grow up in this society. But having the "evil" Drow being only an isolationistsplinter group from the rest of the Drow... No.
From what I've seen and understood, the Lore was already opening up to having more "good" Drow, especially with the cult of Eilistraee, a Drow Goddess who seeks to liberate the Drow from Lolth embrace and redeem them. If WotC wants to had new factions of "good" Drow, I think the Eilistraee route is a far superior one, having an actual splinter group breaking apart from main Drow society and perhaps having a Civil War storyline. But simply adding new "Drow" societies that have always been there but so hidden no one knew they even existed to easily get more "good" Drow... it just feel lazy.
But what are your thoughts on those changes and those new "Drow" societies they're introducing?
I think in terms of Eilistraee, WotC has never truly listened. Even I, a non-lore-wise idiot, know of Eilistraee.
With the introduction of Eilistraee, there was no longer a need to state, "Not all Drow were Evil." Eilistraee had followers who rejected Lolth and Evil from the get-go.
Yet, this newest retcon seems to be saying that Drow weren't all Evil and saying only that; something established with Eilistraee already. It seems to be making a lot of effort to say that. It's unnecessary, but it brings to my mind a question of why one would go through this trouble to iterate one thing already said: Drow are not all Evil.
People are allowed to do what they wish, but I have no problem saying that I'm sticking with Eilistraee for the primary deity of Good Drow. As with any culture, individuals can worship whoever they want. Drow can follow Bahamut. It might be a less-common occurance, but there's nothing to stop it. There could even be a whole village of Drow that does not favor Lolth or Eilistraee or any Drow deity and still be obscure enough to escape wide notice.
There's no need to create a whole population that was somehow never discovered prior. A miraculously hidden faction of Drow just to point out that not all Drow were Evil seems disingenuous in intentions. I will avoid them as I can because I cannot shake the feeling that expanding the lore isn't the primary reason for creating these new Drow.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
With the introduction of Eilistraee, there was no longer a need to state, "Not all Drow were Evil." Eilistraee had followers who rejected Lolth and Evil from the get-go.
Yet, this newest retcon seems to be saying that Drow weren't all Evil and saying only that; something established with Eilistraee already. It seems to be making a lot of effort to say that. It's unnecessary, but it brings to my mind a question of why one would go through this trouble to iterate one thing already said: Drow are not all Evil.
People are allowed to do what they wish, but I have no problem saying that I'm sticking with Eilistraee for the primary deity of Good Drow. As with any culture, individuals can worship whoever they want. Drow can follow Bahamut. It might be a less-common occurance, but there's nothing to stop it. There could even be a whole village of Drow that does not favor Lolth or Eilistraee or any Drow deity and still be obscure enough to escape wide notice.
There's no need to create a whole population that was somehow never discovered prior. A miraculously hidden faction of Drow just to point out that not all Drow were Evil seems disingenuous in intentions. I will avoid them as I can because I cannot shake the feeling that expanding the lore isn't the primary reason for creating these new Drow.
Other than the lore, I get what WotC are wanting, but they're doing it as if the path was not already beginning to be paved.
Just because something (in this case, Eilistraee) needed a tinge more work, doesn't mean that you should burn a completely legitimate option to the ground and ignore it entirely. It's a bit like Nero - ignorant of the playing field, so he burns down Rome. A cleverer way to do things would be to say, "so there's these cults of Eilistrae. Maybe they formed nations?" Rather than, "Ho, Menzoberranzan is the only legitimate evil drow nation because , all previous lore sucks, and there's two other drow nations that we just shoehorned in without any idea what we were doing". I have this problem with Salvatore's Drizzt too - it ignores the fact that there are drow who are good for the sake of it, and that cultures don't mean everything.
Menzoberranzan isn't even the drow capital! There are six other city-states of evil drow in the lore. RA Salvatore isn't the creator and only legitimate voice of the realms, so why does his idea that all other lore in the realms that he doesn't create is worthless stick so much to WotC?
Good shouldn't be entrenched in cultures and traditions. Evil drow don't need markings.
WotC has ended free will! Culture is morality now.
(Okay, they haven't, but I think you can see why I think their black-and-white morals are bad. Just because I live in a primarily Christian country, doesn't mean I worship a deity or believe that heretics should be stoned to death, and nor does that mean people who follow the Bible stone people to death because their opinions differ. Moral is not tradition - ideas are not genetic! Stop your foul culture-ist behaviour, and start supporting the ability to change! I dare you.)
Edit: Also, these new drow sure seem pretty isolationist and therefore potentially racist to me, and calling the drow cultures different names <like lorendrow and udadrow) makes them basically different sub-subraces of drow and just negates any changes WotC make in terms of racial justice, so... Racism seems more rampant here than previously expected. Give me more lineages!
With the introduction of Eilistraee, there was no longer a need to state, "Not all Drow were Evil." Eilistraee had followers who rejected Lolth and Evil from the get-go.
So, maybe you can clarify. Ellistraee's followers have communities where they can openly follow Ellistraee within Menzo? Or do they have their own enclaves? I'm not deep in Drow but my impression was that Ellistraee's followers were at best basically a secret society or a fifth column within Lolthian Drow society. In other words, they were exceptional enough to be insignificant population wise.
Yet, this newest retcon seems to be saying that Drow weren't all Evil and saying only that; something established with Eilistraee already. It seems to be making a lot of effort to say that. It's unnecessary, but it brings to my mind a question of why one would go through this trouble to iterate one thing already said: Drow are not all Evil.
People are allowed to do what they wish, but I have no problem saying that I'm sticking with Eilistraee for the primary deity of Good Drow. As with any culture, individuals can worship whoever they want. Drow can follow Bahamut. It might be a less-common occurance, but there's nothing to stop it. There could even be a whole village of Drow that does not favor Lolth or Eilistraee or any Drow deity and still be obscure enough to escape wide notice.
There's no need to create a whole population that was somehow never discovered prior. A miraculously hidden faction of Drow just to point out that not all Drow were Evil seems disingenuous in intentions. I will avoid them as I can because I cannot shake the feeling that expanding the lore isn't the primary reason for creating these new Drow.
I think you may be blowing the retcon out of proportion. You presume a "whole population" yet seem to in your prior paragraph to grant an allowance of a whole village of Drow with an hitherto unknown perspective. You realize both new Drow communities are referred to as enclaves, right? Enclave usually implies "distinct minority." So, again not having much to go on but a reading of the language presented in the Dragon article, it seems the reality of this move is less the radical rewrite you fear and more within the tolerance level you'd allow. Isolationist societies are a trope in fantasy; and "top of the world" and "deep forest to the largely unexplored South of the Realms" seems to grant reasonable plausibility, almost like a writers room created it so while innovative, the move won't really upset lore, just expand or provide a hitherto unknown perspective.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I am not opposed to the idea of "good" drow or even "good" drow societies. What I do not like is the way it is being retconned and redone.
Firstly, not even 3 years ago WoTC printed Mordekainen Tome of Foes. There is a whole part of that book dealing with elves and the way they came to be and the conflict between Corellon and Lolth. The evil and wickedness of drow are inherently connected to the devil spider goddess.
Secondly, if looking only at Forgotten realms lore the drow became to be after series of conflicts among the elven race called Crown wars. During this series of conflicts, the sun elf kingdom of Arvyydaar committed genocide on the dark elven kingdom of Miyeritar. The rest of the dark elves then started to worship Lolth and demons and being generally evil. After that, the elven race just ganks up on dark elves and banish them into Underkar calling them dhaerow. There was also a sinister ritual that bound ALL dark elves to the Underdark. Also, the destruction of Miyeritar wiped almost all worshippers of Elistraee so Lolth became THE goddess of drow.
As we can see above the drow are always tied to Lolth on the fundamental level. Today's problem where some people see DnD races (also there is an issue that dnd races are not races but species) and go: "OOooh you can't have all evil races! It is racism!!" is the existence of these malevolent gods like Lolth and Gruumsh who can warp and bind whole nations. In the Forgotten Realms setting my headcanon always was that Lolth's demonweb is almost all-encompassing and to run away from her influence is really very hard. There were drow worshiping Lolth in Maztica! You simply cannot apply all of our real-world logic to such a setting. Drow society equals North Korea and above that, it has an evil bloodthirsty goddess with divine power leading it not just dictator with a weird hairstyle.
With all that said I can accept the existence of two new small tribes of drow that stayed especially well hidden from Lolth's eyes although I am quite disappointed that WoCT did not go Elistraee way. There will have to be a lot of reasoning why they stayed hidden for so long. Also, the reaction of the rest of the world that almost universally hates all drow is something that needs to be addressed. Aevendrow and Lorendrow appear and from now on everybody will be friends with them. It just does not work that way.
On the other hand, if WoTC makes it that now there are two new nations of drow elves that are as big as Udadrow I will be extremely disappointed. It won't make sense at all. Where they were and why nobody noticed them, after all that time? How did they evade Lolth's influence? This influence has been shown as all-encompassing in multiple previous sources. In Maztica books it has been shown that Lolth's influence reaches far behind Trackless sea and does not focus only on the Sword Coast sot it does not make sense it is limited to just Menzoberranzan and adjacent lands.
Also, I really do not like that white marking of Lolth which is a direct retcon to all drow lore.
They’re trying to get rid of the idea that all dark-skinned elves are inherently evil. I think these two new drow nations are a good thing.
Also, the white webbing motif on the skins of the evil drow who do worship Lolth further dilutes the idea that dark skins = evil. I don’t understand why people are so upset about this. It’s no less valid than the old lore and if it makes people of color feel more included and more likely to play a non-evil drow character, why is that bad?
They’re trying to get rid of the idea that all dark-skinned elves are inherently evil. I think these two new drow nations are a good thing.
Also, the white webbing motif on the skins of the evil drow who do worship Lolth further dilutes the idea that dark skins = evil. I don’t understand why people are so upset about this. It’s no less valid than the old lore and if it makes people of color feel more included and more likely to play a non-evil drow character, why is that bad?
I think you focus to much on the "dark skin" part of the Drow. It's never been that Drow = Evil because they have dark skin (although early lore had it that Correlon did makes the Dark Elves (who alreay had brown skin) get darker skin for following Lolth [and yeah, I agree (and many people) that this bit was always kinda problematic]) they're "evil" because of the dark influence of Lolth and the way their society was shaped, with in turn shaped the future Drow to be "evil". According to which bit of lore you look at, beside the earlier lore, the Drow either had Brown skin when they were still only Dark Elves (and they weren't all "evil") or always had their obsidian black skin (and once again, they weren't all "evil" before their Descent).
Also, if you look at official art for the Drow, they've shifted from Drow only having obsidian black skin to a wider range with dark gray and dark purple tone as well, and it's already been a few years. I won't pretend to know the reason why, but I suspect at least a good part of it is avoiding people thinking: Drow have obsidian black skin = black people.
Bonus thought, while we're at it, should be change Graz'zt? Because he's a Demon Lord and does have obsidian black skin, so on the evil scale he's much higher than any Drow.
They’re trying to get rid of the idea that all dark-skinned elves are inherently evil. I think these two new drow nations are a good thing.
Also, the white webbing motif on the skins of the evil drow who do worship Lolth further dilutes the idea that dark skins = evil. I don’t understand why people are so upset about this. It’s no less valid than the old lore and if it makes people of color feel more included and more likely to play a non-evil drow character, why is that bad?
I think you focus to much on the "dark skin" part of the Drow. It's never been that Drow = Evil because they have dark skin (although early lore had it that Correlon did makes the Dark Elves (who alreay had brown skin) get darker skin for following Lolth [and yeah, I agree (and many people) that this bit was always kinda problematic]) they're "evil" because of the dark influence of Lolth and the way their society was shaped, with in turn shaped the future Drow to be "evil". According to which bit of lore you look at, beside the earlier lore, the Drow either had Brown skin when they were still only Dark Elves (and they weren't all "evil") or always had their obsidian black skin (and once again, they weren't all "evil" before their Descent).
Also, if you look at official art for the Drow, they've shifted from Drow only having obsidian black skin to a wider range with dark gray and dark purple tone as well, and it's already been a few years. I won't pretend to know the reason why, but I suspect at least a good part of it is avoiding people thinking: Drow have obsidian black skin = black people.
Bonus thought, while we're at it, should be change Graz'zt? Because he's a Demon Lord and does have obsidian black skin, so on the evil scale he's much higher than any Drow.
Yeah, I agree. Drow's wickedness was never about skin tone. It was about Corellon's curse and Lolth and cutthroat politics that deal with the reality in the Underdark. Also what always was so alluring about drow as a player character was the constant struggle. Fighting against Lolth followers against your corrupt society, against the order that is completely wrong, against surface dwellers that hates you. Being smarter, faster and stronger to overcome these obstacles....
If you make take this uniqueness from drow you will just get an ordinary elf. Just with black skin. Even now you can take Loredrow and exchange them for wood elves.
Regarding the white markings. It is not supposed to be the mark of those who worship Lolth. It is the mark of those who have her favor. There will be plenty of really evil drow who do not have the mark.
They’re trying to get rid of the idea that all dark-skinned elves are inherently evil. I think these two new drow nations are a good thing.
Also, the white webbing motif on the skins of the evil drow who do worship Lolth further dilutes the idea that dark skins = evil. I don’t understand why people are so upset about this. It’s no less valid than the old lore and if it makes people of color feel more included and more likely to play a non-evil drow character, why is that bad?
The reason it's bad is that retroactive continuity is universally despised by anyone who enjoys consuming any sort of story-based content.
A better way to fix this would be to not make it retroactive; multiple variations are possible - you could have an entire drow city erupt in civil war, resulting in the city culturally dedicating itself to Eilistraee, and therefore culturally good. You could also have Vhaeraun "bless" Drow with other skin colors - e.g. white for camouflage in the Arctic, green for the Jungle, etc. Very Eladrin-esque. That would get you evil in various (still monochromatic) colors.
They’re trying to get rid of the idea that all dark-skinned elves are inherently evil. I think these two new drow nations are a good thing.
Also, the white webbing motif on the skins of the evil drow who do worship Lolth further dilutes the idea that dark skins = evil. I don’t understand why people are so upset about this. It’s no less valid than the old lore and if it makes people of color feel more included and more likely to play a non-evil drow character, why is that bad?
The reason it's bad is that retroactive continuity is universally despised by anyone who enjoys consuming any sort of story-based content.
A better way to fix this would be to not make it retroactive; multiple variations are possible - you could have an entire drow city erupt in civil war, resulting in the city culturally dedicating itself to Eilistraee, and therefore culturally good. You could also have Vhaeraun "bless" Drow with other skin colors - e.g. white for camouflage in the Arctic, green for the Jungle, etc. Very Eladrin-esque. That would get you evil in various (still monochromatic) colors.
I enjoy reading stories and I don’t despise it. I think it’s kinda fun to play around with. But yeah, I see what you mean. It would solve a lot of problems if they made the drow continuity changes strictly proactive (or whatever the opposite of retroactive is).
I don't see how having two enclaves of Drow that live apart from Corelion-kind as well as their Llothian peers retroactively damages anything. Fantastic lore should always assume unreliable narration because the perspective of the lore writer isn't a totality. Other perspectives can broader or shift the view. Ellistrae was a novelty at one point too folks. This is a similar move but far more geographically removed than Elistrae was.
I'm also pretty darn sure it's not like some Ship crews of Luskan are going to be hanging around the docks and suddenly these two Carnival Cruise liners full of these new Drow show up to party with WhiteClaw Surge on tap while Bregan D'aerthe soils themselves at the existential threat to the perpetuation of their way of life. It's pretty clear these communities are going to be reached by Drizzt and maybe his Icewind Dale buddies after some arduous trekking to places where people who want to be left alone had been left alone for some time now. And more likely than not, they'll be left alone since I don't see a lot of Realms sweeping fiction or event adventure hardbacks making them suddenly major players in the FR's faction churn. This is a pointed way of saying "relax.".
Folks standing on the integrity of some strongly adhered consistent canon in _The Forgotten Realms_ is perplexing. I recognize the Sword Coast geographically on a map, but it's a very different place politically, theologically, demographically, magicologically etc. from what it was in my beat up boxed set from '88(?). Besides Ellistrae showing up, how many times have the Realm's pantheon changed? It's one thing to have something released and after hearing evaluations from peers in the community, say "nah, not for me." But this speculative contempt just seems more like anger at some perceived "who moved my cheese" sorts of real world slights we're projecting on D&D. It's not a good look.
Beside the fact that, seemingly, they have been at least 2 "Drow" societies that have lived hidden - from both the races of the Realm and most likely Lolth at the very least (as I've already said, I don't see Lolth knowing about them and not telling anyone of those "renegade" Drow) - for thousands of years which implies a serious lack of knowledge from manyyy people... It's not the worst that sure - there are ways to make it work.
The most damaging thing is what, once again seemingly, is happening what the 'classic' Drow. Having hidden societies of "good" or at the very least non-Lolth Drow is one thing, having it so that "Evil" Lolth worshipping Drow are simply a splinter group among the Drow, which implies a low number overall, and restricting them to only Menzoberrazan, it's a big slap on the face to the Drow lore that has existed for decades. It also makes the Drow as a big threat, both in the Underdark and on the Surface, illogical at best and impossible at worst. Unless Menzoberrazan is on of the largest cities on Faerûn, I don't see 1 city being that much of a threat to so many - and it become even more of a threat as to how those Drow are able to threaten people hundred of miles from Menzo.
Maybe I've been led astray, but from what I've seen (and it seems to check out) R.A. Salvatore, who is leading those changes (with input from WotC I assume) seems to almost only focus on Menzoberran (which in lore is neither first, biggest nor most powerful Drow city) and all but ignore other Dark Seldarine beside Lolth. As far as I'm concerned, that's why I don't have much hope and expect the worst.
In the end, do we know what's exactly happening and what will change and how much? Beside what they said on the Dragon+ article (if we suppose it's a good reflection on what's coming), no. We'll have to wait and see, and perhaps we'll be proven wrong. We're speculating, true, but not without basis for most of our speculation. At worst we may assume too much from what's been said so far, but her criticism doesn't stem from only "We're introducing two new different Drow societies". There's more to it.
I don't see how having two enclaves of Drow that live apart from Corelion-kind as well as their Llothian peers retroactively damages anything. Fantastic lore should always assume unreliable narration because the perspective of the lore writer isn't a totality. Other perspectives can broader or shift the view. Ellistrae was a novelty at one point too folks. This is a similar move but far more geographically removed than Elistrae was.
I'm also pretty darn sure it's not like some Ship crews of Luskan are going to be hanging around the docks and suddenly these two Carnival Cruise liners full of these new Drow show up to party with WhiteClaw Surge on tap while Bregan D'aerthe soils themselves at the existential threat to the perpetuation of their way of life. It's pretty clear these communities are going to be reached by Drizzt and maybe his Icewind Dale buddies after some arduous trekking to places where people who want to be left alone had been left alone for some time now. And more likely than not, they'll be left alone since I don't see a lot of Realms sweeping fiction or event adventure hardbacks making them suddenly major players in the FR's faction churn. This is a pointed way of saying "relax.".
Folks standing on the integrity of some strongly adhered consistent canon in _The Forgotten Realms_ is perplexing. I recognize the Sword Coast geographically on a map, but it's a very different place politically, theologically, demographically, magicologically etc. from what it was in my beat up boxed set from '88(?). Besides Ellistrae showing up, how many times have the Realm's pantheon changed? It's one thing to have something released and after hearing evaluations from peers in the community, say "nah, not for me." But this speculative contempt just seems more like anger at some perceived "who moved my cheese" sorts of real world slights we're projecting on D&D. It's not a good look.
Magnitude matters. If these new drow are two relatively small settlements somewhere on the edge of the world practical nobody will bat an eye. The problem is that the matter is now presented that all we know is a lie and "everyone is wrong". The Drow as we know them are now being reduced to "splinter group", "pocket of elves that became isolationist", "there are whole societies that did not follow Lolth to Underdark". Which of course irks so many people. If that really was the case It would be unnecessary and it would contradict all the lore we previously had (in one of the origin stories drow were created by Correlon when he took his blessing from them in the other they were forced to Underdark by sun elven ritual in Crown wars. In both cases, in neither of cases drow "followed Lolth to Underdark" which is what the Dragon article says).
Also, there is one other matter. As we are talking about Forgotten realms. Let's dismiss the first drow creation theory (Correlon blessing as is described in Mordekainen Tome of Foes). Let's accept that there are new communities of "drow" that weren't hit by Crown wars and the ritual that "made" dark elves into the drow as we know them today. The logical conclusion then is that these new elves aren't drow and that they are original dark elves with dark skin and brown hair. No alabaster skin, no violet eyes. I would accept that. But they would not be the drow, they would still be the original Ssri-tel-quessir - dark elves.
Change is inevitable, we all know that. The setting has changed many times and as we all can see from 4e, not every change is for good. As I wrote above I feel that it is important to change things like evolution, not revolution (those are almost universally bad), and that why I feel that whole new drow societies are a bad thing.
Maybe they'll get it read indeed, let's hope.
I'm sure those new "Drow" are at the very least a combine idea between WotC and R.A. Salvatore. But from what I learned from the latter :/ I understand why he would just forget the other preexisting "good" Drow that already existed (mostly but not only, Eilistraeean Drow).
Also, R.A. Salvatore killed Chewbacca? Damn.
Yeah, old Star Wars expanded universe before Disney buy out. I forget whether he was responsible for introducing the Yuuzhan Vong into that Star Wars universe, but he clobbered Chewbacca with a weaponized moon basically, and was pretty smug about it if I remember correctly.
Back to topic, I don't know how often Salvatore has been involved in not just a Drizzt novel, but one that's arguably tied into a larger "summer of Drizzt" synergy campaign, so I don't know if that means he has to write within a more negotiated (here's a story Bible, there will be edits if you drift) sort of project, or whether the editors that be will just let him run with it. In theory continuity doesn't seem that hard with branded properties, but I'm accustomed to "story groups" contradicting themselves due to probably another entity's (probably marketings) findings.
I'm actually wondering since my most active party is 3/4 new players, whether any of them actually know Drow exist.... I don't see myself changing that, though I do have a location in the homebrew section of my game world where the retro folks with the photonegative look and the power 'staches would fit in well.
Speaking of, as the appearance of Drow have been debated over a lot threads in this space, I got to thinking maybe Drow looks are similar to Klingons in Star Trek. Though the actual Klingons in my game are the Hobgoblins.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Wait, Salvatore was responsible for the Chewbacca moon incident? I’ve never really been a fan of his, but that sure doesn’t improve him in my opinion.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Interesting, Vector Prime, the novel where Salvatore offs Chewie was published in 1999 ... one year before Wizards got the license to do Star Wars gaming (TTRPG and cards, don't know if they did tactical minis, I think FFG made the break through there years later as part of or pursuant to getting the license that's now in de facto limbo). Maybe Salvatore was sending a message to Lucasfilm on behalf of Wizards at the time....
To make this actually relevant to the thread. Salvatore killed Chewbacca with a moon ... Ellistrae is a moon goddess... Coincidence?!? Or maybe if Ellistree fails to show in the new novels Salvatore can say "yeah, she died crashing into a wookie in another universe."
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
From what I read about Salvatore, he doesn't like Eilistraee and the other Dark Seldarine so doesn't feature her or anyone other.
Also, because I forgot to mention that in my original post, they've decided that from now on (it's unclear if it's a new thing or if if was always the case [though some things point to the latter]) Drow in favor with Lolth are marked by white spider motives "tattoos" on the face and body. "Any Drow that has Lolth’s favor gets these markings that creep up over the skin. The more you embrace her teachings, the more pronounced those markings become. But if you fall out of favor, they start to fade.”
It's not all "evil" Drow that has them, only those in favor with Lolth ("And not every drow has them. Lolth cult members are ‘gifted’ those markings as a result of their connection to the deity." ) but in my opinion it's a pretty useless change. At best it's a new thing Lotlh recently introduce and it's pointless - the never needed distinctive markings before - and at worst it's always been there and in this case it's pointless as an idea and a retcon.
As I see it the only reason for such change is to further distinguish the "evil" Drow from the new surface "good" "Drow" (which is pretty much what's said in the dragon+ article), at least for the most Lolth oriented ones.
I think it’s a great idea! So is Menzoberranzan the only Lolth-worshipping drow city in Faerun’s Underdark?
Also, I feel that at least at the highest levels of power, the drow of Menzoberranzan have kept in touch with their counterparts on Oerth, and possibly to a limited extent with the drow of Eberron and Exandria (though contact with Eberron in particular would be sporadic at best because they serve different deities).
I'm not really inclined to jump to conclusions yet. Maybe it's just because I'm a relatively new D&D player (only been playing since 2018 and DMing since 2020) and haven't really had much time to get attached to the deeply-rooted lore of the game, but the changes seem like they could be interesting. I certainly like to include diverse factions for most player races in my own worlds.
I do agree retconning Lolth worshipers into a splinter faction feels kind of odd though. The cult of Lolth can still be a sizeable portion of drow society without necessarily casting a problematic light on each individual drow (I'm assuming that was their main reason for changing the lore, could be wrong of course).
I think in terms of Eilistraee, WotC has never truly listened. Even I, a non-lore-wise idiot, know of Eilistraee.
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
With the introduction of Eilistraee, there was no longer a need to state, "Not all Drow were Evil." Eilistraee had followers who rejected Lolth and Evil from the get-go.
Yet, this newest retcon seems to be saying that Drow weren't all Evil and saying only that; something established with Eilistraee already. It seems to be making a lot of effort to say that. It's unnecessary, but it brings to my mind a question of why one would go through this trouble to iterate one thing already said: Drow are not all Evil.
People are allowed to do what they wish, but I have no problem saying that I'm sticking with Eilistraee for the primary deity of Good Drow. As with any culture, individuals can worship whoever they want. Drow can follow Bahamut. It might be a less-common occurance, but there's nothing to stop it. There could even be a whole village of Drow that does not favor Lolth or Eilistraee or any Drow deity and still be obscure enough to escape wide notice.
There's no need to create a whole population that was somehow never discovered prior. A miraculously hidden faction of Drow just to point out that not all Drow were Evil seems disingenuous in intentions. I will avoid them as I can because I cannot shake the feeling that expanding the lore isn't the primary reason for creating these new Drow.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
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“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Other than the lore, I get what WotC are wanting, but they're doing it as if the path was not already beginning to be paved.
Just because something (in this case, Eilistraee) needed a tinge more work, doesn't mean that you should burn a completely legitimate option to the ground and ignore it entirely. It's a bit like Nero - ignorant of the playing field, so he burns down Rome. A cleverer way to do things would be to say, "so there's these cults of Eilistrae. Maybe they formed nations?" Rather than, "Ho, Menzoberranzan is the only legitimate evil drow nation because , all previous lore sucks, and there's two other drow nations that we just shoehorned in without any idea what we were doing". I have this problem with Salvatore's Drizzt too - it ignores the fact that there are drow who are good for the sake of it, and that cultures don't mean everything.
Menzoberranzan isn't even the drow capital! There are six other city-states of evil drow in the lore. RA Salvatore isn't the creator and only legitimate voice of the realms, so why does his idea that all other lore in the realms that he doesn't create is worthless stick so much to WotC?
Good shouldn't be entrenched in cultures and traditions. Evil drow don't need markings.
WotC has ended free will! Culture is morality now.
(Okay, they haven't, but I think you can see why I think their black-and-white morals are bad. Just because I live in a primarily Christian country, doesn't mean I worship a deity or believe that heretics should be stoned to death, and nor does that mean people who follow the Bible stone people to death because their opinions differ. Moral is not tradition - ideas are not genetic! Stop your foul culture-ist behaviour, and start supporting the ability to change! I dare you.)
Edit: Also, these new drow sure seem pretty isolationist and therefore potentially racist to me, and calling the drow cultures different names <like lorendrow and udadrow) makes them basically different sub-subraces of drow and just negates any changes WotC make in terms of racial justice, so... Racism seems more rampant here than previously expected. Give me more lineages!
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
So, maybe you can clarify. Ellistraee's followers have communities where they can openly follow Ellistraee within Menzo? Or do they have their own enclaves? I'm not deep in Drow but my impression was that Ellistraee's followers were at best basically a secret society or a fifth column within Lolthian Drow society. In other words, they were exceptional enough to be insignificant population wise.
I think you may be blowing the retcon out of proportion. You presume a "whole population" yet seem to in your prior paragraph to grant an allowance of a whole village of Drow with an hitherto unknown perspective. You realize both new Drow communities are referred to as enclaves, right? Enclave usually implies "distinct minority." So, again not having much to go on but a reading of the language presented in the Dragon article, it seems the reality of this move is less the radical rewrite you fear and more within the tolerance level you'd allow. Isolationist societies are a trope in fantasy; and "top of the world" and "deep forest to the largely unexplored South of the Realms" seems to grant reasonable plausibility, almost like a writers room created it so while innovative, the move won't really upset lore, just expand or provide a hitherto unknown perspective.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I am not opposed to the idea of "good" drow or even "good" drow societies. What I do not like is the way it is being retconned and redone.
Firstly, not even 3 years ago WoTC printed Mordekainen Tome of Foes. There is a whole part of that book dealing with elves and the way they came to be and the conflict between Corellon and Lolth. The evil and wickedness of drow are inherently connected to the devil spider goddess.
Secondly, if looking only at Forgotten realms lore the drow became to be after series of conflicts among the elven race called Crown wars. During this series of conflicts, the sun elf kingdom of Arvyydaar committed genocide on the dark elven kingdom of Miyeritar. The rest of the dark elves then started to worship Lolth and demons and being generally evil. After that, the elven race just ganks up on dark elves and banish them into Underkar calling them dhaerow. There was also a sinister ritual that bound ALL dark elves to the Underdark. Also, the destruction of Miyeritar wiped almost all worshippers of Elistraee so Lolth became THE goddess of drow.
As we can see above the drow are always tied to Lolth on the fundamental level. Today's problem where some people see DnD races (also there is an issue that dnd races are not races but species) and go: "OOooh you can't have all evil races! It is racism!!" is the existence of these malevolent gods like Lolth and Gruumsh who can warp and bind whole nations. In the Forgotten Realms setting my headcanon always was that Lolth's demonweb is almost all-encompassing and to run away from her influence is really very hard. There were drow worshiping Lolth in Maztica! You simply cannot apply all of our real-world logic to such a setting. Drow society equals North Korea and above that, it has an evil bloodthirsty goddess with divine power leading it not just dictator with a weird hairstyle.
With all that said I can accept the existence of two new small tribes of drow that stayed especially well hidden from Lolth's eyes although I am quite disappointed that WoCT did not go Elistraee way. There will have to be a lot of reasoning why they stayed hidden for so long. Also, the reaction of the rest of the world that almost universally hates all drow is something that needs to be addressed. Aevendrow and Lorendrow appear and from now on everybody will be friends with them. It just does not work that way.
On the other hand, if WoTC makes it that now there are two new nations of drow elves that are as big as Udadrow I will be extremely disappointed. It won't make sense at all. Where they were and why nobody noticed them, after all that time? How did they evade Lolth's influence? This influence has been shown as all-encompassing in multiple previous sources. In Maztica books it has been shown that Lolth's influence reaches far behind Trackless sea and does not focus only on the Sword Coast sot it does not make sense it is limited to just Menzoberranzan and adjacent lands.
Also, I really do not like that white marking of Lolth which is a direct retcon to all drow lore.
They’re trying to get rid of the idea that all dark-skinned elves are inherently evil. I think these two new drow nations are a good thing.
Also, the white webbing motif on the skins of the evil drow who do worship Lolth further dilutes the idea that dark skins = evil. I don’t understand why people are so upset about this. It’s no less valid than the old lore and if it makes people of color feel more included and more likely to play a non-evil drow character, why is that bad?
I think you focus to much on the "dark skin" part of the Drow. It's never been that Drow = Evil because they have dark skin (although early lore had it that Correlon did makes the Dark Elves (who alreay had brown skin) get darker skin for following Lolth [and yeah, I agree (and many people) that this bit was always kinda problematic]) they're "evil" because of the dark influence of Lolth and the way their society was shaped, with in turn shaped the future Drow to be "evil". According to which bit of lore you look at, beside the earlier lore, the Drow either had Brown skin when they were still only Dark Elves (and they weren't all "evil") or always had their obsidian black skin (and once again, they weren't all "evil" before their Descent).
Also, if you look at official art for the Drow, they've shifted from Drow only having obsidian black skin to a wider range with dark gray and dark purple tone as well, and it's already been a few years. I won't pretend to know the reason why, but I suspect at least a good part of it is avoiding people thinking: Drow have obsidian black skin = black people.
Bonus thought, while we're at it, should be change Graz'zt? Because he's a Demon Lord and does have obsidian black skin, so on the evil scale he's much higher than any Drow.
Yeah, I agree. Drow's wickedness was never about skin tone. It was about Corellon's curse and Lolth and cutthroat politics that deal with the reality in the Underdark. Also what always was so alluring about drow as a player character was the constant struggle. Fighting against Lolth followers against your corrupt society, against the order that is completely wrong, against surface dwellers that hates you. Being smarter, faster and stronger to overcome these obstacles....
If you make take this uniqueness from drow you will just get an ordinary elf. Just with black skin. Even now you can take Loredrow and exchange them for wood elves.
Regarding the white markings. It is not supposed to be the mark of those who worship Lolth. It is the mark of those who have her favor. There will be plenty of really evil drow who do not have the mark.
The reason it's bad is that retroactive continuity is universally despised by anyone who enjoys consuming any sort of story-based content.
A better way to fix this would be to not make it retroactive; multiple variations are possible - you could have an entire drow city erupt in civil war, resulting in the city culturally dedicating itself to Eilistraee, and therefore culturally good. You could also have Vhaeraun "bless" Drow with other skin colors - e.g. white for camouflage in the Arctic, green for the Jungle, etc. Very Eladrin-esque. That would get you evil in various (still monochromatic) colors.
I enjoy reading stories and I don’t despise it. I think it’s kinda fun to play around with. But yeah, I see what you mean. It would solve a lot of problems if they made the drow continuity changes strictly proactive (or whatever the opposite of retroactive is).
I don't see how having two enclaves of Drow that live apart from Corelion-kind as well as their Llothian peers retroactively damages anything. Fantastic lore should always assume unreliable narration because the perspective of the lore writer isn't a totality. Other perspectives can broader or shift the view. Ellistrae was a novelty at one point too folks. This is a similar move but far more geographically removed than Elistrae was.
I'm also pretty darn sure it's not like some Ship crews of Luskan are going to be hanging around the docks and suddenly these two Carnival Cruise liners full of these new Drow show up to party with WhiteClaw Surge on tap while Bregan D'aerthe soils themselves at the existential threat to the perpetuation of their way of life. It's pretty clear these communities are going to be reached by Drizzt and maybe his Icewind Dale buddies after some arduous trekking to places where people who want to be left alone had been left alone for some time now. And more likely than not, they'll be left alone since I don't see a lot of Realms sweeping fiction or event adventure hardbacks making them suddenly major players in the FR's faction churn. This is a pointed way of saying "relax.".
Folks standing on the integrity of some strongly adhered consistent canon in _The Forgotten Realms_ is perplexing. I recognize the Sword Coast geographically on a map, but it's a very different place politically, theologically, demographically, magicologically etc. from what it was in my beat up boxed set from '88(?). Besides Ellistrae showing up, how many times have the Realm's pantheon changed? It's one thing to have something released and after hearing evaluations from peers in the community, say "nah, not for me." But this speculative contempt just seems more like anger at some perceived "who moved my cheese" sorts of real world slights we're projecting on D&D. It's not a good look.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Beside the fact that, seemingly, they have been at least 2 "Drow" societies that have lived hidden - from both the races of the Realm and most likely Lolth at the very least (as I've already said, I don't see Lolth knowing about them and not telling anyone of those "renegade" Drow) - for thousands of years which implies a serious lack of knowledge from manyyy people... It's not the worst that sure - there are ways to make it work.
The most damaging thing is what, once again seemingly, is happening what the 'classic' Drow. Having hidden societies of "good" or at the very least non-Lolth Drow is one thing, having it so that "Evil" Lolth worshipping Drow are simply a splinter group among the Drow, which implies a low number overall, and restricting them to only Menzoberrazan, it's a big slap on the face to the Drow lore that has existed for decades. It also makes the Drow as a big threat, both in the Underdark and on the Surface, illogical at best and impossible at worst. Unless Menzoberrazan is on of the largest cities on Faerûn, I don't see 1 city being that much of a threat to so many - and it become even more of a threat as to how those Drow are able to threaten people hundred of miles from Menzo.
Maybe I've been led astray, but from what I've seen (and it seems to check out) R.A. Salvatore, who is leading those changes (with input from WotC I assume) seems to almost only focus on Menzoberran (which in lore is neither first, biggest nor most powerful Drow city) and all but ignore other Dark Seldarine beside Lolth. As far as I'm concerned, that's why I don't have much hope and expect the worst.
In the end, do we know what's exactly happening and what will change and how much? Beside what they said on the Dragon+ article (if we suppose it's a good reflection on what's coming), no. We'll have to wait and see, and perhaps we'll be proven wrong. We're speculating, true, but not without basis for most of our speculation. At worst we may assume too much from what's been said so far, but her criticism doesn't stem from only "We're introducing two new different Drow societies". There's more to it.
Magnitude matters. If these new drow are two relatively small settlements somewhere on the edge of the world practical nobody will bat an eye. The problem is that the matter is now presented that all we know is a lie and "everyone is wrong". The Drow as we know them are now being reduced to "splinter group", "pocket of elves that became isolationist", "there are whole societies that did not follow Lolth to Underdark". Which of course irks so many people. If that really was the case It would be unnecessary and it would contradict all the lore we previously had (in one of the origin stories drow were created by Correlon when he took his blessing from them in the other they were forced to Underdark by sun elven ritual in Crown wars. In both cases, in neither of cases drow "followed Lolth to Underdark" which is what the Dragon article says).
Also, there is one other matter. As we are talking about Forgotten realms. Let's dismiss the first drow creation theory (Correlon blessing as is described in Mordekainen Tome of Foes). Let's accept that there are new communities of "drow" that weren't hit by Crown wars and the ritual that "made" dark elves into the drow as we know them today. The logical conclusion then is that these new elves aren't drow and that they are original dark elves with dark skin and brown hair. No alabaster skin, no violet eyes. I would accept that. But they would not be the drow, they would still be the original Ssri-tel-quessir - dark elves.
Change is inevitable, we all know that. The setting has changed many times and as we all can see from 4e, not every change is for good. As I wrote above I feel that it is important to change things like evolution, not revolution (those are almost universally bad), and that why I feel that whole new drow societies are a bad thing.