I'm working on a homebrew campaign right now that revolves a lot around Devils. Because of this I plan on having my players come across certain artifacts, clues, etc that contain writing in Infernal script.
My question is; can my one player, who can speak/read/write abyssal understand Infernal? I understand that Abyssal is the language of demons and Infernal is the language of Devils. I also understand the HUGE difference between devils and demons. But in all my research i keep coming across the fact that the Abyssal language is written using the Infernal alphabet. That's what is confusing me. Does this mean if you can read and write abyssal you can essentially read and write Infernal as well since its the same lettering? or is it like us french vs english ... yeah both use the same alphabet, but it's obviously written in a different language ...
for me personally I'm leaning more towards my character recognizing the letters as Infernal, but not being able to read it since he can only understand abyssal ...
English, Spanish, French, German, Russian, and I-don't-know-how-many other languages use approximately the same alphabet. That Abyssal and Infernal use the same alphabet is irrelevant.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Yeah they wouldn't be able to understand it any more than reading English allows you to understand Latin. But they would certainly recognize the alphabet, so personally I would allow an investigation roll for the player to recognize the language and possibly a few words/cognates.
I wouldn't allow it, as said before alphabets do not constitute language, grammer, structure and syntax. Also as pointed out English and various other tounge share alphabets and cant be understood. And that is with a shared anthropologicaly shared history, now consider beings from ther planes with seperate evolutionary paths and blah blah blah...nope, thats the answer.
The answer should be no, especially if you understand how vastly different abyssal and infernal societies are. Like people above me mentioned, English and Spanish use the same alphabet but on paper it still doesn't look the same.
thanks for all the replies everyone! yeah haha i went with no as well. always like to double check other people's opnions though just in case. never know what kind of unique or fun twists people can throw into their games. thanks again!
Still a decent chance they could read a handful of words (or at least think they can) could be something interesting to mislead them if they don't take the time to find someone to translate for them. Or better yet, let them figure out a few words from the overall translation that really makes it confusing.
"I was out drinking with my fellows when a bear happened across our camp. It sniffed and snarled at us but eventually settled down some distance away to watch us curiously. We let it be and named him Gruff."
Rough translation " Drunken... beast... over camp. Roaring...sat and stared. its name is Gruff." Something like that.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Still a decent chance they could read a handful of words (or at least think they can) could be something interesting to mislead them if they don't take the time to find someone to translate for them. Or better yet, let them figure out a few words from the overall translation that really makes it confusing.
"I was out drinking with my fellows when a bear happened across our camp. It sniffed and snarled at us but eventually settled down some distance away to watch us curiously. We let it be and named him Gruff."
Rough translation " Drunken... beast... over camp. Roaring...sat and stared. its name is Gruff." Something like that.
Or, based on my own knowledge of Spanish, French, and German, "I . . . a bear . . . down . . . it . . . and . . . him Gruff."
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
fun fact; there are like, 3 Chinese languages and speakers can't understand each other, but the written language is the same. in the end, it depends on how the written language relates to the particular spoken language.
Super interesting question! What might be kind of fun, since you are creating a Hebrew campaign, is to make the abyssal and infernal languages relationship similar to that of the Hebrew and Yiddish languages. Yiddish being kind of a bastardization of Hebrew mixing it with common language. you could likewise make abyssal unto infernal as Yiddish is to Hebrew so that they have more in common. Depending on how rooted in Hebrew/Jewish lore this would lend itself to a storyline where Demons and Devils collaborate more easily and freely. This is not a suggestion you should take if you are a D&D lore and rule stickler but since this is a home brew campaign I'm betting you are okay with bending for the stake of your story a smidge.
In my campaign, I have a player playing a tiefling character who can understand Infernal. He found a book in Abyssal. I told him he could understand enough by looking at it to tell that it was written in Abyssal and he could make out a few few words...enough to identify some of the topics in the book, but not enough to understand any of the context.
I would compare Abyssal and Infernal to being two romance Languages, lets say French and Spanish since Im Fluent in one and "functional" in another.
They're both Western Romance Languages (From the lower planes), and use Latin Script (the Infernal Alphabet).
Assuming that Infernal and Abyssal follow the same basic logic where each glyph/glyph sequences aligns with the same (or at least similar) sounds, It would be possible for someone who is Fluent in one language to read the other and have a vague understanding. I would say that some one who had the Anthropologist Background (ToA) might be able to speak the other language with the same fluency as a young child.
It might be relevant to point out that 5e does have languages that can be mildly understood by speakers of different languages.
The Primordial language is a language group that includes Ignan, Terran, Aquan, so forth. Might be misremembering the actual spelling. There are also speakers of these individual languages, that can somewhat understand each other but with some difficulty.
English, Spanish, French, German, Russian, and I-don't-know-how-many other languages use approximately the same alphabet. That Abyssal and Infernal use the same alphabet is irrelevant.
To add to this, since I believe it's a great example beyond the alphabet, Japanese has adopted a Chinese method to create a shorthand. While Hiragana focuses on a syllable-based alphabet, and Katakana is a variation mostly used for adopting foreign words, such as names, they created Kanji from borrowing Chinese characters to create a condensed way of writing out long (or short) documents. However, if you offer this to a Chinese person, be it that they speak Mandarin, Cantonese, or Shanghainese, the placement and use of the characters will look familiar but still make no sense... Much like reading a stressful confession written from someone just starting to learn your language.
It might be relevant to point out that 5e does have languages that can be mildly understood by speakers of different languages.
The Primordial language is a language group that includes Ignan, Terran, Aquan, so forth. Might be misremembering the actual spelling. There are also speakers of these individual languages, that can somewhat understand each other but with some difficulty.
Basically, they're dialect differences.
If I recall correctly, some terms change, but I do know that most elemental types hate each other (in a campaign, our druid, who's cursed staff gave him the ability to speak Aquan, tried it on Ignan elementals. Just hearing the other dialect pissed them off.)
However, there are two real-world examples that could relate to this: a) Scottish dialects, although derived from the same source, are often localized slangs so strong that you might not be understood even 1 town over (or so my Scottish friend told me). b) While Latin languages do differ, Italian and Spanish are so similar that I've witnessed a Mexican and an Italian hold many conversations using their native tongue. It's scary to hear how few times there was a miscommunication.
It might be relevant to point out that 5e does have languages that can be mildly understood by speakers of different languages.
The Primordial language is a language group that includes Ignan, Terran, Aquan, so forth. Might be misremembering the actual spelling. There are also speakers of these individual languages, that can somewhat understand each other but with some difficulty.
Basically, they're dialect differences.
I was about to raise this myself. The dialects of Primordial are understood just barely so that someone speaking Ignan could have a conversation with someone speaking Auran and so they're all listed under the umbrella of Primordial. They may speak the Ignan dialect but they are speaking Primordial.
On the other hand Infernal and Abyssal are specifically noted down as two separate languages so I would say they are sufficiently different that a speaker of one cannot be understood by a speaker of the other.
It is possible that Infernal and Abyssal share some characters in common in their written forms that carry the same meaning in both languages but are pronounced differently. It is also possible that it is like English and transliterated Japanese. Same alphabetic characters, but absolutely no relation between the languages at all. Go with what is most fun for your campaign.
If one were to make it like English vs Latin, then those particually good at English might recognize some Latin words or perhaps vis versa. I suppose if one were to roll a nat20 on trying to read something outside their language, they could recognize a word or two. In approximation. Up to the DM, but I think that might be a fun connection to make between the two languages.
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Hey everyone!
I'm working on a homebrew campaign right now that revolves a lot around Devils. Because of this I plan on having my players come across certain artifacts, clues, etc that contain writing in Infernal script.
My question is; can my one player, who can speak/read/write abyssal understand Infernal? I understand that Abyssal is the language of demons and Infernal is the language of Devils. I also understand the HUGE difference between devils and demons. But in all my research i keep coming across the fact that the Abyssal language is written using the Infernal alphabet. That's what is confusing me. Does this mean if you can read and write abyssal you can essentially read and write Infernal as well since its the same lettering? or is it like us french vs english ... yeah both use the same alphabet, but it's obviously written in a different language ...
for me personally I'm leaning more towards my character recognizing the letters as Infernal, but not being able to read it since he can only understand abyssal ...
thoughts? ideas?
thanks!
English, Spanish, French, German, Russian, and I-don't-know-how-many other languages use approximately the same alphabet. That Abyssal and Infernal use the same alphabet is irrelevant.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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i was thinking the same thing ... just wanted to double check if there's some hidden history to the text that i didn't know of. thanks!
Yeah they wouldn't be able to understand it any more than reading English allows you to understand Latin. But they would certainly recognize the alphabet, so personally I would allow an investigation roll for the player to recognize the language and possibly a few words/cognates.
I wouldn't allow it, as said before alphabets do not constitute language, grammer, structure and syntax. Also as pointed out English and various other tounge share alphabets and cant be understood. And that is with a shared anthropologicaly shared history, now consider beings from ther planes with seperate evolutionary paths and blah blah blah...nope, thats the answer.
The answer should be no, especially if you understand how vastly different abyssal and infernal societies are. Like people above me mentioned, English and Spanish use the same alphabet but on paper it still doesn't look the same.
thanks for all the replies everyone! yeah haha i went with no as well. always like to double check other people's opnions though just in case. never know what kind of unique or fun twists people can throw into their games.
thanks again!
Still a decent chance they could read a handful of words (or at least think they can) could be something interesting to mislead them if they don't take the time to find someone to translate for them. Or better yet, let them figure out a few words from the overall translation that really makes it confusing.
"I was out drinking with my fellows when a bear happened across our camp. It sniffed and snarled at us but eventually settled down some distance away to watch us curiously. We let it be and named him Gruff."
Rough translation " Drunken... beast... over camp. Roaring...sat and stared. its name is Gruff." Something like that.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
fun fact; there are like, 3 Chinese languages and speakers can't understand each other, but the written language is the same. in the end, it depends on how the written language relates to the particular spoken language.
haha love it!
Super interesting question! What might be kind of fun, since you are creating a Hebrew campaign, is to make the abyssal and infernal languages relationship similar to that of the Hebrew and Yiddish languages. Yiddish being kind of a bastardization of Hebrew mixing it with common language. you could likewise make abyssal unto infernal as Yiddish is to Hebrew so that they have more in common. Depending on how rooted in Hebrew/Jewish lore this would lend itself to a storyline where Demons and Devils collaborate more easily and freely. This is not a suggestion you should take if you are a D&D lore and rule stickler but since this is a home brew campaign I'm betting you are okay with bending for the stake of your story a smidge.
Thanks!
In my campaign, I have a player playing a tiefling character who can understand Infernal. He found a book in Abyssal. I told him he could understand enough by looking at it to tell that it was written in Abyssal and he could make out a few few words...enough to identify some of the topics in the book, but not enough to understand any of the context.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I would compare Abyssal and Infernal to being two romance Languages, lets say French and Spanish since Im Fluent in one and "functional" in another.
They're both Western Romance Languages (From the lower planes), and use Latin Script (the Infernal Alphabet).
Assuming that Infernal and Abyssal follow the same basic logic where each glyph/glyph sequences aligns with the same (or at least similar) sounds, It would be possible for someone who is Fluent in one language to read the other and have a vague understanding. I would say that some one who had the Anthropologist Background (ToA) might be able to speak the other language with the same fluency as a young child.
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ModeratorIt might be relevant to point out that 5e does have languages that can be mildly understood by speakers of different languages.
The Primordial language is a language group that includes Ignan, Terran, Aquan, so forth. Might be misremembering the actual spelling. There are also speakers of these individual languages, that can somewhat understand each other but with some difficulty.
Basically, they're dialect differences.
To add to this, since I believe it's a great example beyond the alphabet, Japanese has adopted a Chinese method to create a shorthand. While Hiragana focuses on a syllable-based alphabet, and Katakana is a variation mostly used for adopting foreign words, such as names, they created Kanji from borrowing Chinese characters to create a condensed way of writing out long (or short) documents. However, if you offer this to a Chinese person, be it that they speak Mandarin, Cantonese, or Shanghainese, the placement and use of the characters will look familiar but still make no sense... Much like reading a stressful confession written from someone just starting to learn your language.
If I recall correctly, some terms change, but I do know that most elemental types hate each other (in a campaign, our druid, who's cursed staff gave him the ability to speak Aquan, tried it on Ignan elementals. Just hearing the other dialect pissed them off.)
However, there are two real-world examples that could relate to this: a) Scottish dialects, although derived from the same source, are often localized slangs so strong that you might not be understood even 1 town over (or so my Scottish friend told me). b) While Latin languages do differ, Italian and Spanish are so similar that I've witnessed a Mexican and an Italian hold many conversations using their native tongue. It's scary to hear how few times there was a miscommunication.
I was about to raise this myself. The dialects of Primordial are understood just barely so that someone speaking Ignan could have a conversation with someone speaking Auran and so they're all listed under the umbrella of Primordial. They may speak the Ignan dialect but they are speaking Primordial.
On the other hand Infernal and Abyssal are specifically noted down as two separate languages so I would say they are sufficiently different that a speaker of one cannot be understood by a speaker of the other.
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It is possible that Infernal and Abyssal share some characters in common in their written forms that carry the same meaning in both languages but are pronounced differently. It is also possible that it is like English and transliterated Japanese. Same alphabetic characters, but absolutely no relation between the languages at all. Go with what is most fun for your campaign.
There are waaaaaayyyyyyy more than 3 chinese dialects
I like jellyfish
If one were to make it like English vs Latin, then those particually good at English might recognize some Latin words or perhaps vis versa.
I suppose if one were to roll a nat20 on trying to read something outside their language, they could recognize a word or two. In approximation. Up to the DM, but I think that might be a fun connection to make between the two languages.