is it even possible to kill primus?

Hey this is amazing. It’s so detailed and really interesting. I love some of the stuff you’ve come up with.

I’ve read through it all and I’ve a few comments/suggestions/questions which you will hopefully find helpful. I’m still pretty new to D&D so I’ll mainly stick to comments on Lore and storytelling, which is an area I’m much more knowledgeable about. I've a lot to say so I'll try and break it up as much as I can.

Firstly, re the Devil’s victory, are you struggling to come up with a reason for how/why it happened or is it just a secret part of the lore? If it’s the former, I’ve a couple of suggestions I can post. If it’s the latter, I can send you the suggestions directly, if you want to have look.

On angels guarding coastal cities – that’s really interesting but you need to lock them down I think. As in their sole duty is to watch the waters to guard from Aboleth and Kraken attacks and they can’t spare their energy for mundane threats such as a bandit raid or enemy invasion, because if they’re watch slackens for even a moment these terrifying beasts will gain a foothold on the land and, once settled in, it will be almost impossible to dislodge them. Basically I don’t think you want a super powerful being locking down a lot of [fighting] quest potential, although it might make quest construction interesting. There are other reasons which I’ll elaborate on in a bit.

I’d also settle them beyond the city limits. They’re guardians but most of them don’t feel they’re actually part of the city. Then have a few weird exceptions.

How much of a direct role are Celestials taking in the running of this world? Are they kind of like Supervisors qua de-facto rulers or do they maintain a kind of watchful, assisted-when-needed ideal. At the moment, I feel like they interfere too much, taking away the ideals of free/self-determination.

I also feel based on your description they wouldn’t really have the resources left to do so much for the world. I feel like holding back the Aboleths would be their limit (and even if it wasn’t for the sake of story-building and RP I feel it should be ruled as such). If they have too much power in the material plane, it would take away from the game, I think. 

I love what you did with the gnolls. It’s absolutely amazing. One of your best parts of this already amazing piece

What caused the Orc gods change of heart?

Are the goblins their same destructive and violent selves or are you suggesting that magic changed their outlook on the world?

I wonder would it be interesting if in the chaos the Ithilid took the opportunity to travel to the surface and make good on their plans for conquest. While the rest of the Material Plane was recovering from the string of world-shaking events, they slowly cultivated their forces/strength in the Realmspace and in secret bastions beyond the limits of civilisations until they were ready to unleash a terrible wave of violence upon the world. Their conquest was halted, however, by the vigilance of the Telairkarr and it has spiralled into a prolonged war that has lasted up to the current day.

In modern times they have outposts in the upper realms and the war between them and the rest of the world is ongoing. From the Outposts they send out spies into the world at large. Well this is just a suggestion; you might have your own ideas for their movements. I love the idea of them breeding servile white dragons and especially the concept of a Braineater Dragon.

I love what you’ve done with the Gith. Some kind of heroic backstory would be useful for their charismatic leader. To make it interesting, rather than making another battle hero, why not make him into a speaker whose earnest desire for peace, brilliant charisma and masterful speaking talents moved the Gith and they united behind him. You could add in something about his foresight in organising the Gith properly so they would not fall back into factions on his death.

 That's all I've got for right now. If you find it helpful/interesting, I'll post more stuff. When I get a chance.

Quote from iExist >>

is it even possible to kill primus?

It is, and has happened on a few occasions. Orcus once did it, taking control of the Modrons for a time in Forgotten Realms lore. 

Quote from fiaraven >>

Firstly, re the Devil’s victory, are you struggling to come up with a reason for how/why it happened or is it just a secret part of the lore? If it’s the former, I’ve a couple of suggestions I can post. If it’s the latter, I can send you the suggestions directly, if you want to have look.

I'm open to suggestions, but I think I'm going to go with a more vague piece of lore there. The Devils won, the Celestials had to flee and the Gods had to sacrifice themselves. That definitely happened. Everything else is up for debate.

Quote from fiaraven >> 

On angels guarding coastal cities – that’s really interesting but you need to lock them down I think. As in their sole duty is to watch the waters to guard from Aboleth and Kraken attacks and they can’t spare their energy for mundane threats such as a bandit raid or enemy invasion, because if they’re watch slackens for even a moment these terrifying beasts will gain a foothold on the land and, once settled in, it will be almost impossible to dislodge them. Basically I don’t think you want a super powerful being locking down a lot of [fighting] quest potential, although it might make quest construction interesting. There are other reasons which I’ll elaborate on in a bit.

I’d also settle them beyond the city limits. They’re guardians but most of them don’t feel they’re actually part of the city. Then have a few weird exceptions 

I will certainly detail which specific angels are guarding different parts of the coast, if that's what you're asking. For instance, Zariel (risen version) will be guarding Waterdeep with a team of Devas, Planetars and other celestial creatures. They at first were mostly helping with rebuilding cities after the Catastrophe, but eventually got stuck protecting them due to the Second Dragon-Giant War, and because of the Aboleth and Kraken attacks. They may or may not actually live in the city, but there will be angels protecting them, because of the threats that have existed over the course of a thousand years. Waterdeep and the other major coastal cities have other protectors (statues of waterdeep, mages, knights, etc), but they still depend on the help of the angels for the cities's protection. 

Quote from fiaraven >>

How much of a direct role are Celestials taking in the running of this world? Are they kind of like Supervisors qua de-facto rulers or do they maintain a kind of watchful, assisted-when-needed ideal. At the moment, I feel like they interfere too much, taking away the ideals of free/self-determination.

I also feel based on your description they wouldn’t really have the resources left to do so much for the world. I feel like holding back the Aboleths would be their limit (and even if it wasn’t for the sake of story-building and RP I feel it should be ruled as such). If they have too much power in the material plane, it would take away from the game, I think.  

They're a more watchful, assistance when absolutely necessary organization. In the past 1000 years, the major things that the Council of Celestial Powers has done are the following:

1. Protect the coastal cities from giant, dragon, aboleth, and kraken fights. Only in major raids do they give assistance. Otherwise, it's up to the cities to defend themselves from Sahuagin, Kuo-Toa, and other attacks. 
2. Stop the Second Dragon-Giant War, which they allowed to continue for hundreds of years. Eventually, it was causing too much trouble and destruction, so the Celestials got off their thrones in the Elemental Plane of Air, and decided to put an end to the war. 
3. Unify the Giants against their current war with the Aboleths. 

That's pretty much it. They don't do a ton in the Material Plane. That's a whole different story in the Elemental Planes, though (I will explain that in a future post).

I have made sure that they are not a sort of "Deus Ex Machina Protectors and Justice Police of the World," because that would take away from the fun of the campaigns. The angels are there, you can possibly meet with them if you absolutely have to, and they still may not listen to you if you manage to get their audience. They are powerful, they are spread across Toril, but they don't want to force anyone to do anything. 

Quote from fiaraven >> 

What caused the Orc gods change of heart?

 

Are the goblins their same destructive and violent selves or are you suggesting that magic changed their outlook on the world?

First, the Orc gods (plural), did not change their heart. Gruumsh did. He decided that his war with the goblin gods in Acheron, and then Carceri was pointless, brought about absolutely no good for them, and basically decided suicide to protect his people was a better fate than imprisonment. 

Oh, the goblinoids are different. They are mostly cut off from the rest of the world, wholly devoted to the Yikare, so much so that they pity the other races because they aren't as "blessed" as the goblinoids. Magic completely changed their outlook on the world over the course of 1000 years. They can still be destructive when provoked, and are still violent when attacked, but they are mostly neutral. 

Quote from fiaraven >> 

I wonder would it be interesting if in the chaos the Ithilid took the opportunity to travel to the surface and make good on their plans for conquest. While the rest of the Material Plane was recovering from the string of world-shaking events, they slowly cultivated their forces/strength in the Realmspace and in secret bastions beyond the limits of civilisations until they were ready to unleash a terrible wave of violence upon the world. Their conquest was halted, however, by the vigilance of the Telairkarr and it has spiralled into a prolonged war that has lasted up to the current day.

In modern times they have outposts in the upper realms and the war between them and the rest of the world is ongoing. From the Outposts they send out spies into the world at large. Well this is just a suggestion; you might have your own ideas for their movements. I love the idea of them breeding servile white dragons and especially the concept of a Braineater Dragon.

I am currently working on the changes to the planets of Realmspace, but I have a few things that could clarify things a bit. First, practically all the Illithids left Toril, and most of them never came back. Most people on Tor-eal would have no clue what an Illithid is. Second, they have not returned to Toril because they don't need to, they have a planet completely under their control now, Glyth. Third, I didn't invent the concept of a Brainstealer Dragon, they have been in the game for years. 

Quote from fiaraven >>

I love what you’ve done with the Gith. Some kind of heroic backstory would be useful for their charismatic leader. To make it interesting, rather than making another battle hero, why not make him into a speaker whose earnest desire for peace, brilliant charisma and masterful speaking talents moved the Gith and they united behind him. You could add in something about his foresight in organising the Gith properly so they would not fall back into factions on his death. 

I will add more about their history when I can. They definitely will be changed quite a bit. Their founder, Xeikarr, will have been quite charismatic, as he founded the organization that tracks down aberrations (except flumphs, who work with them) and slays them. Thanks for the recommendations. 

I hope this clears some things up. Thanks for reading and giving input. It certainly helps. Thanks for all the compliments. If you have any more questions or comments, I'd love to clarify. 

I think a better question for me to ask is: is it possible to kill primus and keep him down? he did come back eventually.

In Volo's guide to Monsters, it states that once a mordon dies, a mordon from a lower rank is promoted. For example, if a quadrone died, then a tridrone would be transformed into a quadrone, a duodrone would turn into a tridrone, a monodrone would turn into a duodrone, and a single monodrone would walk out of the factories in Mechanus.

Also, how does Antimagic Field work if the Weave is destroyed?

The original Primus that Orcus killed never came back. A different Modron replaced Primus, and the original dead Primus is out there as a Vestige. It is feasible to kill Primus, take control of the Modrons, and remain in power as long as you keep control of the Modrons. 

Quote from RoscoFatrabbit >>

In Volo's guide to Monsters, it states that once a mordon dies, a mordon from a lower rank is promoted. For example, if a quadrone died, then a tridrone would be transformed into a quadrone, a duodrone would turn into a tridrone, a monodrone would turn into a duodrone, and a single monodrone would walk out of the factories in Mechanus.

Also, how does Antimagic Field work if the Weave is destroyed?

I highly doubt that is from Volo's Guide to Monsters, as modrons are not mentioned in that book, but that information is contained in the Monster Manual, I believe. That is the correct process of modron heirarchy, but it can and has been subverted before. 

Antimagic Field still works as normal. It exists in worlds where the weave doesn't exist, so why wouldn't it work on Tor-eal?

Quote from iExist >>

I think a better question for me to ask is: is it possible to kill primus and keep him down? he did come back eventually.

 Technically, that was a different Primus than the one that Orcus killed. Also, it was only because Orcus left(I think?).

I think it is that there is one primus, a new vessel every time primus dies.

Quote from iExist >>

I think it is that there is one primus, a new vessel every time primus dies.

That is not based in the lore, though. I'm going off of lore. There are different Primus-es, and a dead Primus stays dead while being replaced by a different Primus unless weird stuff happens (Like Orcus or Asmodeus taking the title). 

makes sense. I don't know every bit of lore. (that would be a lot)

Quote from Third_Sundering >>

Quote from RoscoFatrabbit >>

In Volo's guide to Monsters, it states that once a mordon dies, a mordon from a lower rank is promoted. For example, if a quadrone died, then a tridrone would be transformed into a quadrone, a duodrone would turn into a tridrone, a monodrone would turn into a duodrone, and a single monodrone would walk out of the factories in Mechanus.

Also, how does Antimagic Field work if the Weave is destroyed?

I highly doubt that is from Volo's Guide to Monsters, as modrons are not mentioned in that book, but that information is contained in the Monster Manual, I believe. That is the correct process of modron heirarchy, but it can and has been subverted before. 

Antimagic Field still works as normal. It exists in worlds where the weave doesn't exist, so why wouldn't it work on Tor-eal?

 Oops! Not Volo's guide. https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/310-how-to-play-a-modron-like-a-wind-up-soldier

Under normal circumstances, Primus’s death would simply cause one of the four secondi modrons to be promoted to Primus (causing a chain reaction of promotion that would echo through the entire modron hierarchy until finally concluding with a single monodrone trotting briskly out the doors of the Great Modron Cathedral). Of course, the death of the god of all modrons could never occur under “normal circumstances.” Indeed, the only recorded death of Primus caused the events of The Great Modron March, in which a hostile and mysterious entity—no spoilers, ask in the comments for more info if interested—assumed the role of Primus for a time and set off the Great Modron March two centuries early.

“Promotion is traumatic—not only does the chosen modron undergo a wrenching change of shape to the new rank’s form, but it suddenly gains an understanding of a world previously veiled to it: the existence of a yet superior rank. Imagine the shock of a duodrone, who knew only of monodrones, duodrones, and tridrones, when it suddenly discovers those inexplicable creatures around it are quadrones and members of its own race! On the other hand, the newly promoted modron seems to adapt to its new form instantly, and it is the humanoid observer who is often most shaken by the experience.”

—Planescape Campaign Setting (1994), by David “Zeb” Cook

Yes, that does contain information on how modron promotion works. Anything else?

Ok, then I'll DM you my suggestions at a later point.

My questions on angels/celestials generally focused on their exact role in the material plane which you answered so thank you. I do have some further questions but since that pertains directly to their role in the Draco-Giant Wars, I'll save them for when I'm responding to that.

Re the Ithilid, I guess it's a matter of personal preference, but I'd like it if they were still around. I didn't realise Brainstealer Dragons were an official creation, but I am still somewhat new.

Moving on to your next post,

On Minotaurs, I think it’s interesting what you’ve done there as well. I think it would be interesting to strengthen their relationship with Gnolls – during the bad time when they were seeking their place in a world which rejected them, only the Gnolls, sensing a kindred suffering, offered a helping hand. Thus Minotaurs consider Gnolls to be their greatest friends and allies and the two races have a strong relationship.

Are their forts still surrounded by mazes in modern times? I think it would be interesting from a story point of view. These creatures, lost in a new world with new ideas, clinging to some last vestige of familiarity down through ages. Even when time passes and their origins are forgotten, still they feel a strange sense of comfort in these labyrinthine barriers. Or something.

Have you a new name for the Minotaurs changed race or are you envisioning them as still basically minotaurs but calmer and smaller?

On Aboleths – nothing really to add. It’s a pretty interesting story line. Instigating the 2 Dragon-Giant war, taking over the oceans, but failing to prevent the spread of the news of their actions so the Angels were able to quickly pick up on their movements and forestall their plans to build a land empire. It would be interesting to add a new race that the Aboleth bred, created, mutated to serve as powerful land troops for them, something that will show up only in recent times, like just when the campaign’s starting. (I know they already have the Chuul but something new, adapted because of their ongoing difficulties/inability to bring the war to an end, could be interesting)

Quick question did the Aboleths and Ithilids both only start moving after the gods’ deaths?

I'll save my comments on the Giants and the Draco-giant war for my next post.

Yes, the Minotaurs still surround their fortresses with mazes, these ones made out of steel. 

The minotaurs are basically the same physically, but shorter and calmer, so they don't really need a name change. I did name changes for most of the races that actually changed in a very significant way. 

I am adding the Krakenspawn (Simic Hybrids), which serve the Aboleths indirectly, and could add a race that serves the Aboleths. The Kuo-Toa are enslaved by them, so maybe they could be the race. Thanks for the recommendation. 

The illithids started just when the Underdark was being overrun by Duergar, but they didn't leave to Realmspace until the gods died. The Aboleths didn't do anything until the gods died, as well. 

Thanks, I can't wait to hear it. 

Quote from Third_Sundering >>

 

I am adding the Krakenspawn (Simic Hybrids), which serve the Aboleths indirectly, and could add a race that serves the Aboleths. The Kuo-Toa are enslaved by them, so maybe they could be the race. Thanks for the recommendation. 

 

You could also have them breed a new race using their prisoners or warp their prisoners through eons of mental slavery (sort of like what the Ithilids do with psionics to create thralls). Or you could maybe have them get hold of a doppelganger(s).

Also, I've been meaning to ask, have you given any thoughts to humans? They're race isn't going to change (though I suppose you could create some new half-races) but the catastrophe and ensuing events would have meant the rise and fall of many human empires/nations.

Quote from fiaraven >>

Quote from Third_Sundering >>

 

I am adding the Krakenspawn (Simic Hybrids), which serve the Aboleths indirectly, and could add a race that serves the Aboleths. The Kuo-Toa are enslaved by them, so maybe they could be the race. Thanks for the recommendation. 

 

 

You could also have them breed a new race using their prisoners or warp their prisoners through eons of mental slavery (sort of like what the Ithilids do with psionics to create thralls). Or you could maybe have them get hold of a doppelganger(s).

Also, I've been meaning to ask, have you given any thoughts to humans? They're race isn't going to change (though I suppose you could create some new half-races) but the catastrophe and ensuing events would have meant the rise and fall of many human empires/nations.

Yes, the catastrophe would destroy most human nations and other civilizations. The race won't change, but the culture might a bit. I haven't really decided a whole ton on that, at the moment. 

I have designed two classes that could fit into this world (but didn't really intend for them to be designed for it). 

Here's an Occultist class. This is going to be a fairly uncommon class, found mostly among the Feywild, Feydark, Shadowfell, and Underfell, but can be practiced anywhere. Satyrs, Centaurs, and other seelie fey typically use the Light and Earth Lines for occult practices and follow the Grey and White Paths, while the unseelie fey practice the Umbra Line and other dark occult magics, like the Black Magic Path. Vezyi occultists often use the Black Magic and Blood and Bone Lines for their magic, while Shadar-Kai use the Umbra and Witchblade Lines and Grey and Black Paths. Other occultists are often found in Orc tribes and Gnoll cities, Duergar Deathcults, and Minotaur Goldsmiths. 

Here's an Arcane Gish (name's a work in progress) class: These are also not super common, but are occasionally found in Yikkan Goblinoid settlements, Vezyi Guards, and Giant Clans. 

On the Giant War – overall it’s really enthralling. A once proud race, struggling for Millennia to reclaim their lost glory and then finally losing their god(s), sense of purpose and way of life, almost all in one go. And then while still struggling to recover and find themselves anew, their driven together for the first time in thousands of years after their brethren lose their home. Still struggling to reform themselves, their old, never forgotten foes, attack suddenly without warning or explanation. There’s enough here for an entire story in itself. I do have a few things I’d like to query/clarify.

Is your idea behind Annam’s last words meant to be a kind of motivation for the giants – i.e. he knew the only way they would let go of the Ordnung and the past (and thereby look to the future) was if he completely enraged and rejected them? Or did you feel Annam would never, even at the very end, be able to forget his wrath at his children for failing to restore Ostoria?

 Would a God as stubborn as Annam really tell them to abandon the Ordnung? I thinks it’s an interesting idea and it fits with the narrative your laying out, but I’m just wondering would it make sense, past lore-wise, for Annam to make this decision?

I’m assuming the loss of the Ordnung led to some infighting as they tried to figure out their new caste system? Plus the Fire and Frost Giants are forcefully thrown into the middle of the mix, due to the loss of their homes.

I think some of the Giants might be normally a bit calmer than Frost/Fire Giants say, so perhaps something you could include in the Lore is that the Storm Giants did sue for peace/sent peace overtures but the dragons viciously rejected them/slew the envoys/whatever thus completely earning the ire of all giants.

I’m not sure about the ending – I mean the dragons are literally incandescent with rage, the flames of grievances old and new burning within them, and they’re probably focused on the sole destruction of giants. I don’t think they’d readily stop.

As for the giants – war has become the meaning of their lives. They wouldn’t stop easily.

And I think, based on your descriptions, the Celestials would be too busy guarding the seas to really mediate things. Plus, I think it’s too easy. There’s no challenge for the races (or later on PCs).

I love the ideas of after losing the Ordnung and being caught in the mire of war, the giants re-finding meaning in their cultural ways old and new. I think it’s an interesting idea of the new system coming out of the only structure they could grasp post Catastrophe, War. I also like the idea of them becoming a coastal race and focusing on the war with the Aboleths. However, if the celestials need help from Giants for this war, I think this adds weight to the arguments that they didn’t have the power to end the 2 Dragon-Giant War in the first place.

Perhaps another war forced them to put aside their differences – like the Aboleth inventing a new weapon or re-discovering an ancient construct(s) or something that they use to attack the terrestrial world, including the dragons and giants who temporarily put aside their differences to deal with this new threat. Afterwards, the Celestials, desperate for aid in their war to defend the terrestrial realms, try to mediate peace between the two sides and get them focused on a common enemy. OR, instead the temporary ceasefire never ends as the Aboleth prove a more difficult foe than anticipated and their forced to keep fighting them, never having a chance to return to their feud.

How many of Giants are left all those centuries of fighting?