Lot's of unfavorable opinions on this spell online. The complaints are that the effects may or may not happen, and won't happen until much later.
But I'm looking at this from another perspective. An effect that happens immediately is the poisoned condition. That does not sound like much for a 5th level spell, but consider this during a big boss fight with legendary resistances.
It's a spell attack, bypassing legendary resistances. On a hit, the target is poisoned and has disadvantage on all attacks and ability checks for at least three rounds. It could potentially last longer and/or cause the big boss to burn uses of legendary resistances. That's 3+ rounds of seriously nerfing the damage output of a boss. What do you think?
I agree with you. People also miss that this is not a concentration spell, so you can also combine with Bane to impose -1d4 penalty. And, if you get Mind Sliver cantrip somehow, perhaps through a feat, you can impose another -1d4 penalty. You can also combine with an upcasted Bestow Curse at 5th level, which will also not use concentration at that level, to impose disadvantage to Con checks.
-2d4 penalty with disadvantage. Yeah, you have a good chance to impose the disease quickly. And once you have - those disease effects are powerful, especially Slimy Doom - you can then stunlock them for up to 7 days (as long as you keep damaging them, so they'll probably die before then, but you get the idea).
Contagion on its own is reasonably OK. Contagion combined with other spells is incredibly powerful and can make most Boss fights a cakewalk.
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The thing about Contagion is that the poisoning effect was introduced in the big November 2018 errata. For the majority of 5th edition's lifespan, the spell was confusingly-worded and borderline impossible to use in combat. A lot of the negative sentiment you're seeing is likely from before the spell was changed.
I don't know about you, but I don't usually like to get within melee range of a boss monster when I'm playing a caster.
I think it's got a pretty strong effect in a pretty specific niche. As with all the spells I like, if it fits your character concept, you should take it. It might make you suboptimal in the very strictest sense but it's not going to make your character bad.
I'm not quite sure I'd want to get into touch range of something with Legendary actions of any sort, and they get a Con save to avoid the effect entirely. If they have Legendary resistances at all, how likely is that going to work? I looked over the spell, and I can't find anywhere that it says anything about Legendary anything at all. Generally, if a spell doesn't say it can do something, it can't.
I'm not quite sure I'd want to get into touch range of something with Legendary actions of any sort, and they get a Con save to avoid the effect entirely.
No, they don't. The spell automatically poisons the target on a hit, and then it takes 3 saving throw successes or failures for the condition to wear off. If you can score a hit on the monster and it's not immune to being poisoned, the spell is going to last a minimum of 3 rounds. A legendary monster can ensure it doesn't last any longer than that by forcing each save to be a success, but they can't cut the duration shorter than 3 rounds without using something like Dispel Magic or an effect that can remove poison.
I don't know about you, but I don't usually like to get within melee range of a boss monster when I'm playing a caster.
That's what familiars are for
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Contagion is a powerful debuff, but for PC use it's a spell that only debuffs a target and many builds favor damage or damage and debuff over straight debuff. And, of course, there's the issue of how common immunity to poison is among monsters. It's a powerful spell, but also one with a much more limited application than most of the other choices available to casters of that level.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I played a higher-level druid (game ended at level 13, I think she was 11 or 12 at the time?), and got to use Contagion on a boss once - and it worked. Slimy Doom, yo. Slimy Doom.
It was glorious. This boss had like 1200hp. It was a Plant creature. Combined with Blight, we murderized the thing.
Ok. Three saves and they get to choose which disease they get. Since the target is the one doing the choosing, you can't force them to pick which one, and they can clearly pick one the don't mind or are immune to. Most things that are immune to poison are also immune to disease.
I have to wonder; what level encounter would using a 5th level spell with a range of "touch" on something with Legedary actions of any kind be a good idea, and just how much would that nerf their targets damage output?
The caster chooses the disease. Yes it is worded awkwardly but by context if the caster had the choice the wording would be as it is: "choose", but if the target had the choice the wording would be "chooses".
The use of "choose" is an instruction to you, the caster.
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Ok. Three saves and they get to choose which disease they get. Since the target is the one doing the choosing, you can't force them to pick which one, and they can clearly pick one the don't mind or are immune to. Most things that are immune to poison are also immune to disease.
I have to wonder; what level encounter would using a 5th level spell with a range of "touch" on something with Legedary actions of any kind be a good idea, and just how much would that nerf their targets damage output?
Well, let's have a quick look. From the three setting-agnostic monster source books we have (MM, MtoF, and VGtM), the legendary monsters immune to poison add up to 40. The ones immune to disease are... Zero. None of the undead including the mummy lord who causes rot in others. None of the demons including Zuggtmoy who infects people with fungi. The Solar can use its Healing Touch to end a disease another creature, but not itself. Diseased isn't a condition, firstly, and -- this is just speculation on my part -- it's not worth spelling out if a monster is immune to diseases, because it basically never comes up. Most diseases don't do anything mechanically relevant in a battle context. Contagion is extremely severe as far as diseases go.
Meanwhile, the total number of legendary monsters from those books is 71. So yes, over half of them are immune to being poisoned. That's going to put a pretty harsh limit on the utility of Contagion. However, a bunch of the ones that aren't immune are dragons, and those play a pretty major role in this game. In any case, it's a Druid and Cleric spell, and both of those classes prepare their spells, so you can just put it away if it's not useful for your situation. If you're heading into Undeadville, Home of the Legendary Undead, then you certainly shouldn't prepare it.
I don't have the type of brain required to crunch these numbers and tell you the answers to your queries. But I would reckon the answers are roughly, "9th level and up, because that's when you have 5th level magic," and "around 25% damage reduction, but dice are so swingy and battles are so all over the place that it could be 100% or 0%." When it comes down to it, (and you're probably going to take this as an admission of defeat, which is fair, because the thread is basically "is this spell actually mechanically superior"), players should use spells they think are cool, and not worry so much about the numbers. I understand that gamers often want to optimize for their own satisfaction, but 5th edition D&D really doesn't require you to, or really reward you much for doing so, by default. Your DM might alter things to be harder and more demanding but generally speaking you can get away with a lot of "bad" build decisions. And sticking solely to the "best" ones can keep you from a lot of very cool stuff. One need look no further than Hunter's Mark to see that. Rangers can cast Speak With Animals with those slots, which is one of the greatest spells in any game ever, and I'll hear no dissent from anyone. But they don't, because Hunter's Mark.
I think Contagion is at its best in a less structured adventure scenario. If the plot says you must battle this bad guy to the death here and now, then the spell is basically just providing 3-4 turns of disadvantage on attacks, because most battles take around 3-4 turns, and that's not a very good return for a 5th level slot. But it has a very long duration (7 days!), and you can deliver it via a familiar, so if you have the freedom to attempt such things, you can make some cool plans with it. Sneak in, or catch the monster unawares, or even negotiate your surrender or something and get the spell on them, then strike later. This style of play ("Combat as War," as I've heard it called) isn't very common because the first-party adventure books don't use it, but it's a perfectly valid way of playing, and I think this spell would be awesome in such a game.
If you're not entirely good cleric, you could set a glyph of warding to target somebody rich/important - they'll get a horrible disease and you just so have to be able to cure diseases easily - for the right price, of course.
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After having it pounded into my head, I must admit, Contagion is underrated after all. It's actually extremely overpowered. It's insanely powerful to be able to use a 5th level spell to force a high CR monster with Legendary powers to burn 3 uses, most only get 3 of those to start with. I have no idea what level spell that really should be. It's functions are limited, but it made a 1200 hit point monster fight into Easy Mode.
For my own games, I will probably just houserule that a single save makes the target immune to the spell effect from any given caster for 24 hours. There are few things where you just have to keep making save after save after save to avoid the effect.
Most legendary creatures have great CON saves and are more likely to succeed than fail. They also tend to have saving throw effects that wouldn't be affected by being poisoned. Nerfing their attacks is very useful and totally worth the 5th level slot, but it's usually not going to force the DM's hand on the Legendary Resistance department.
Stunning Strike or the few save-or-suck spells in 5e like Levitate and Earthbind have far more dire consequences and are better ways to force a Legendary Resistance use. Stunning Strike in particular can force multiple saves per round and getting stunned by it compounds how dangerous it is since the monk will then have advantage on the next round as well, making easier to force the saves again.
Lot's of unfavorable opinions on this spell online. The complaints are that the effects may or may not happen, and won't happen until much later.
But I'm looking at this from another perspective. An effect that happens immediately is the poisoned condition. That does not sound like much for a 5th level spell, but consider this during a big boss fight with legendary resistances.
It's a spell attack, bypassing legendary resistances. On a hit, the target is poisoned and has disadvantage on all attacks and ability checks for at least three rounds. It could potentially last longer and/or cause the big boss to burn uses of legendary resistances. That's 3+ rounds of seriously nerfing the damage output of a boss. What do you think?
It has to save 3 times, which takes 3 turns, hence 3 rounds. Until it saves 3 times it will be poisoned. If it fails three times it still stops being poisoned but the effect becomes worse and lasts 7 days.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Lot's of unfavorable opinions on this spell online. The complaints are that the effects may or may not happen, and won't happen until much later.
But I'm looking at this from another perspective. An effect that happens immediately is the poisoned condition. That does not sound like much for a 5th level spell, but consider this during a big boss fight with legendary resistances.
It's a spell attack, bypassing legendary resistances. On a hit, the target is poisoned and has disadvantage on all attacks and ability checks for at least three rounds. It could potentially last longer and/or cause the big boss to burn uses of legendary resistances. That's 3+ rounds of seriously nerfing the damage output of a boss. What do you think?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/contagion
I agree with you. People also miss that this is not a concentration spell, so you can also combine with Bane to impose -1d4 penalty. And, if you get Mind Sliver cantrip somehow, perhaps through a feat, you can impose another -1d4 penalty. You can also combine with an upcasted Bestow Curse at 5th level, which will also not use concentration at that level, to impose disadvantage to Con checks.
-2d4 penalty with disadvantage. Yeah, you have a good chance to impose the disease quickly. And once you have - those disease effects are powerful, especially Slimy Doom - you can then stunlock them for up to 7 days (as long as you keep damaging them, so they'll probably die before then, but you get the idea).
Contagion on its own is reasonably OK. Contagion combined with other spells is incredibly powerful and can make most Boss fights a cakewalk.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
The thing about Contagion is that the poisoning effect was introduced in the big November 2018 errata. For the majority of 5th edition's lifespan, the spell was confusingly-worded and borderline impossible to use in combat. A lot of the negative sentiment you're seeing is likely from before the spell was changed.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I don't know about you, but I don't usually like to get within melee range of a boss monster when I'm playing a caster.
I think it's got a pretty strong effect in a pretty specific niche. As with all the spells I like, if it fits your character concept, you should take it. It might make you suboptimal in the very strictest sense but it's not going to make your character bad.
I'm not quite sure I'd want to get into touch range of something with Legendary actions of any sort, and they get a Con save to avoid the effect entirely. If they have Legendary resistances at all, how likely is that going to work? I looked over the spell, and I can't find anywhere that it says anything about Legendary anything at all. Generally, if a spell doesn't say it can do something, it can't.
<Insert clever signature here>
No, they don't. The spell automatically poisons the target on a hit, and then it takes 3 saving throw successes or failures for the condition to wear off. If you can score a hit on the monster and it's not immune to being poisoned, the spell is going to last a minimum of 3 rounds. A legendary monster can ensure it doesn't last any longer than that by forcing each save to be a success, but they can't cut the duration shorter than 3 rounds without using something like Dispel Magic or an effect that can remove poison.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
That's what familiars are for
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Good point!
Contagion is a powerful debuff, but for PC use it's a spell that only debuffs a target and many builds favor damage or damage and debuff over straight debuff. And, of course, there's the issue of how common immunity to poison is among monsters. It's a powerful spell, but also one with a much more limited application than most of the other choices available to casters of that level.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I played a higher-level druid (game ended at level 13, I think she was 11 or 12 at the time?), and got to use Contagion on a boss once - and it worked. Slimy Doom, yo. Slimy Doom.
It was glorious. This boss had like 1200hp. It was a Plant creature. Combined with Blight, we murderized the thing.
Ok. Three saves and they get to choose which disease they get. Since the target is the one doing the choosing, you can't force them to pick which one, and they can clearly pick one the don't mind or are immune to. Most things that are immune to poison are also immune to disease.
I have to wonder; what level encounter would using a 5th level spell with a range of "touch" on something with Legedary actions of any kind be a good idea, and just how much would that nerf their targets damage output?
<Insert clever signature here>
The caster chooses the disease. Yes it is worded awkwardly but by context if the caster had the choice the wording would be as it is: "choose", but if the target had the choice the wording would be "chooses".
The use of "choose" is an instruction to you, the caster.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Well, let's have a quick look. From the three setting-agnostic monster source books we have (MM, MtoF, and VGtM), the legendary monsters immune to poison add up to 40. The ones immune to disease are... Zero. None of the undead including the mummy lord who causes rot in others. None of the demons including Zuggtmoy who infects people with fungi. The Solar can use its Healing Touch to end a disease another creature, but not itself. Diseased isn't a condition, firstly, and -- this is just speculation on my part -- it's not worth spelling out if a monster is immune to diseases, because it basically never comes up. Most diseases don't do anything mechanically relevant in a battle context. Contagion is extremely severe as far as diseases go.
Meanwhile, the total number of legendary monsters from those books is 71. So yes, over half of them are immune to being poisoned. That's going to put a pretty harsh limit on the utility of Contagion. However, a bunch of the ones that aren't immune are dragons, and those play a pretty major role in this game. In any case, it's a Druid and Cleric spell, and both of those classes prepare their spells, so you can just put it away if it's not useful for your situation. If you're heading into Undeadville, Home of the Legendary Undead, then you certainly shouldn't prepare it.
I don't have the type of brain required to crunch these numbers and tell you the answers to your queries. But I would reckon the answers are roughly, "9th level and up, because that's when you have 5th level magic," and "around 25% damage reduction, but dice are so swingy and battles are so all over the place that it could be 100% or 0%." When it comes down to it, (and you're probably going to take this as an admission of defeat, which is fair, because the thread is basically "is this spell actually mechanically superior"), players should use spells they think are cool, and not worry so much about the numbers. I understand that gamers often want to optimize for their own satisfaction, but 5th edition D&D really doesn't require you to, or really reward you much for doing so, by default. Your DM might alter things to be harder and more demanding but generally speaking you can get away with a lot of "bad" build decisions. And sticking solely to the "best" ones can keep you from a lot of very cool stuff. One need look no further than Hunter's Mark to see that. Rangers can cast Speak With Animals with those slots, which is one of the greatest spells in any game ever, and I'll hear no dissent from anyone. But they don't, because Hunter's Mark.
I think Contagion is at its best in a less structured adventure scenario. If the plot says you must battle this bad guy to the death here and now, then the spell is basically just providing 3-4 turns of disadvantage on attacks, because most battles take around 3-4 turns, and that's not a very good return for a 5th level slot. But it has a very long duration (7 days!), and you can deliver it via a familiar, so if you have the freedom to attempt such things, you can make some cool plans with it. Sneak in, or catch the monster unawares, or even negotiate your surrender or something and get the spell on them, then strike later. This style of play ("Combat as War," as I've heard it called) isn't very common because the first-party adventure books don't use it, but it's a perfectly valid way of playing, and I think this spell would be awesome in such a game.
If you're not entirely good cleric, you could set a glyph of warding to target somebody rich/important - they'll get a horrible disease and you just so have to be able to cure diseases easily - for the right price, of course.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
After having it pounded into my head, I must admit, Contagion is underrated after all. It's actually extremely overpowered. It's insanely powerful to be able to use a 5th level spell to force a high CR monster with Legendary powers to burn 3 uses, most only get 3 of those to start with. I have no idea what level spell that really should be. It's functions are limited, but it made a 1200 hit point monster fight into Easy Mode.
For my own games, I will probably just houserule that a single save makes the target immune to the spell effect from any given caster for 24 hours. There are few things where you just have to keep making save after save after save to avoid the effect.
<Insert clever signature here>
Most legendary creatures have great CON saves and are more likely to succeed than fail. They also tend to have saving throw effects that wouldn't be affected by being poisoned. Nerfing their attacks is very useful and totally worth the 5th level slot, but it's usually not going to force the DM's hand on the Legendary Resistance department.
Stunning Strike or the few save-or-suck spells in 5e like Levitate and Earthbind have far more dire consequences and are better ways to force a Legendary Resistance use. Stunning Strike in particular can force multiple saves per round and getting stunned by it compounds how dangerous it is since the monk will then have advantage on the next round as well, making easier to force the saves again.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
At least 1 turn, not 3 rounds. You get until the end of the target's next turn, and then it starts trying to save.
Can you provide an actual potential target for which you'd rather cast Contagion than e.g. upcast Banishment for two targets?
It has to save 3 times, which takes 3 turns, hence 3 rounds. Until it saves 3 times it will be poisoned. If it fails three times it still stops being poisoned but the effect becomes worse and lasts 7 days.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
InquisitiveCoder, you always make good points and I enjoy your insights.
How do you tag people in posts?