I think one reason you might see discussions and debates is because of the youtube creators who contrast and compare builds. Hard numbers like Hit Points, AC, and average damage are one of the better ways to do that. If you ask a dozen players (or even DMs for that matter) which type of character is better for Social interactions or non-combat goals you'll get different answers because such things are more subjective.
There are objective mechanics to social interactions as well. If you ask me that I would say a well-built Eloquence Bard.
And someone else might say 'Use Charm spells'. Like I said, without hard numbers to compare the topic can get a bit muddier. I personally like the Inquisitive or Mastermind Rogue but a LOT of that is personal bias because I haven't run a Bard in 5e yet.
Charm spells have a saving throw, lasts an hour and then the creature is hostile toward you. Automatically rolling 20+ on a persuasion check is forever :)
I have always loved the Reliable Talent on the Rogue for just this reason. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone spout a good line and then follow it up with a 5 or less on their die roll.
Reliable talent is amazing, but comes on late for Rogues. The Eloquence Bard gets it for persuasion and deception right at level 3. And Charisma is their main stat. If you put expertise in both, even if you do point buy, you're rolling 17+ at level 3, and 20+ at level 5.
If you want an overall skill monkey, consider the Soulknife Rogue. There is no better skill monkey in the game. :)
Psionic Power
3rd-level Soulknife feature
You harbor a wellspring of psionic energy within yourself. This energy is represented by your Psionic Energy dice, which are each a d6. You have a number of these dice equal to twice your proficiency bonus, and they fuel various psionic powers you have, which are detailed below.
Some of your powers expend the Psionic Energy die they use, as specified in a power’s description, and you can’t use a power if it requires you to use a die when your dice are all expended. You regain all your expended Psionic Energy dice when you finish a long rest. In addition, as a bonus action, you can regain one expended Psionic Energy die, but you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
When you reach certain levels in this class, the size of your Psionic Energy dice increases: at 5th level (d8), 11th level (d10), and 17th level (d12). The powers below use your Psionic Energy dice.
Psi-Bolstered Knack.When your nonpsionic training fails you, your psionic power can help: if you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with which you have proficiency, you can roll one Psionic Energy die and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning failure into success. You expend the die only if the roll succeeds.
One of the things that I LOVE about the Soul Knife is that their attacks don't rely on the Energy die so you can hold it for such circumstances. The fact that the die is only used if you succeed is awesome.
My only problem with this is when the optimised character's player doesn't turn up and combats suddenly become much more dangerous. Especially when the other players don't realise how much the maxed characters are contributing, and don't change their strategy.
In a game I run, the players still don't really do focus fire and buffing. In a battle where the players of the two ranged dpsers weren't there, they got their butts handed to them (two PCs dead, near TPK). Part of it was that I didn't realise how much damage those two characters contributed, part of it was the the remaining players just didn't play smart. Even though they were down two heavy-hitters they still split up, didn't focus fire, spent actions killing and controlling trash mobs. In a full party that would have been OK. Without the dpsers, it was bad. Wow, does that mean those five remaining characters are "the load"?
My only problem with this is when the optimised character's player doesn't turn up and combats suddenly become much more dangerous. Especially when the other players don't realise how much the maxed characters are contributing, and don't change their strategy.
In a game I run, the players still don't really do focus fire and buffing. In a battle where the players of the two ranged dpsers weren't there, they got their butts handed to them (two PCs dead, near TPK). Part of it was that I didn't realise how much damage those two characters contributed, part of it was the the remaining players just didn't play smart. Even though they were down two heavy-hitters they still split up, didn't focus fire, spent actions killing and controlling trash mobs. In a full party that would have been OK. Without the dpsers, it was bad. Wow, does that mean those five remaining characters are "the load"?
Think of it as a learning experience. The game I'm currently in had a similar battle recently, not because we were down players but we really did miss the train with regards to target selection and overall tactics.
One of our players, running a very military character (Soldier background) actually brought it up while we rested later. We all agreed with him, including the team leader, and during our next down-time we all discussed tactics. For the next battle, we were more on-point and we mopped the floor with the opposition.
D&D is an RPG. A Role Playing Game. The "Role Playing" is right there in the title - but so is the "Game". An RPG is at its best when the story parts and the game parts work in unison for a gestalt experience no other form of entertainment can provide. "Optimizers" are simply people who enjoy the 'Game' portion of an RPG as much as the 'Role Playing' portion. If I wanted nothing but game, I'd just go play a video game. If I wanted nothing but a well-crafted story, I'd go read a book or just write my own stories. Video games are vastly better at being games than D&D or any other TTRPG is. A good book is a vastly better story than most any D&D game is going to be.
When I play a game of D&D, I'm looking for the unique and irreplicable experience of getting both merged into the same thing in a way no other media can come close to. Both pieces are important. Critical, even. Telling optimizers they're godawful human beings who hate fun, their friends, their game, their DM, and the entire TTRPG hobby just because they don't actively go out of their way to be Bohemian Failure Monkeys shows a shallow, heavily flawed understanding of how this whole thing works.
Telling optimizers they're godawful human beings who hate fun, their friends, their game, their DM, and the entire TTRPG hobby just because they don't actively go out of their way to be Bohemian Failure Monkeys shows a shallow, heavily flawed understanding of how this whole thing works.
I can only assume the incredible defensiveness on display here is a response to other, prior threads I've never read
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Telling optimizers they're godawful human beings who hate fun, their friends, their game, their DM, and the entire TTRPG hobby just because they don't actively go out of their way to be Bohemian Failure Monkeys shows a shallow, heavily flawed understanding of how this whole thing works.
I can only assume the incredible defensiveness on display here is a response to other, prior threads I've never read
If I were the DM and one player is clearly going above and beyond with their build, and everyone else isn't...
I'd give the other players the really powerful magic items. Give the fighter a special flame tongue homebrewed with a rarely resisted damage type instead of fire, now their damage hurts a lot even if they have GWM or not. Give the rogue a dancing sword rapier, now they can potentially sneak attack twice.
give the power gamer lesser items.
That's how I'd go about it.
So you'd punish the person fully utilizing their character? I mean, if they aren't cheating and are within the rules, I see no reason to punish them. They're just doing it better. That's life. Maybe the others should talk with that player to get tips on what they can do to improve their character? The "power gamer" may have some decent ideas. I know I have learned a lot from your perspective on various classes and "power gaming" with them.
Btw, I don't think the rogue with a Dancing Sword works for a second Sneak Attack. It's not the rogue attacking, but the Dancing Sword. It would use the rogues attack roll and ability score for the damage modifier, but it makes no mention of using any class abilities with it.
If I were the DM and one player is clearly going above and beyond with their build, and everyone else isn't...
I'd give the other players the really powerful magic items. Give the fighter a special flame tongue homebrewed with a rarely resisted damage type instead of fire, now their damage hurts a lot even if they have GWM or not. Give the rogue a dancing sword rapier, now they can potentially sneak attack twice.
give the power gamer lesser items.
That's how I'd go about it.
So you'd punish the person fully utilizing their character? I mean, if they aren't cheating and are within the rules, I see no reason to punish them. They're just doing it better. That's life. Maybe the others should talk with that player to get tips on what they can do to improve their character? The "power gamer" may have some decent ideas. I know I have learned a lot from your perspective on various classes and "power gaming" with them.
Btw, I don't think the rogue with a Dancing Sword works for a second Sneak Attack. It's not the rogue attacking, but the Dancing Sword. It would use the rogues attack roll and ability score for the damage modifier, but it makes no mention of using any class abilities with it.
It's immaterial. We're postulating that the players are good roleplayers, right? That's the premise here. So we can assume they won't metagame - that they won't, in-character, play along with punishing their team's bruiser for being a competent bruiser.
So imagine you're a member of a strike force - a squad, whose job is engaging in ludicrously dangerous combat on the regular. Yeah? And one of you regularly goes above and beyond. Just no question, does more violence than the rest of you. Has saved your life and the lives of your squadmates many times, and you can bet your bottom dollar they'll do so again at the soonest opportunity.
And then you pick up a magic sword. Are you going to a) keep it, or b) give it to the party bruiser who you know will use it better than you can to save your life?
Putting min/maxing in your build aside, absolutely everyone with any sense at all min/maxes their personal lives, optimizing for whatever it is they most desire. Anything else would be bad roleplaying. That means you can usually count on good roleplayers to attempt basic survival strategies, like giving the best weapons in the party to the most competent weapon wielder in the party, regardless of who happened to find or pick up a weapon.
If I were the DM and one player is clearly going above and beyond with their build, and everyone else isn't...
I'd give the other players the really powerful magic items. Give the fighter a special flame tongue homebrewed with a rarely resisted damage type instead of fire, now their damage hurts a lot even if they have GWM or not. Give the rogue a dancing sword rapier, now they can potentially sneak attack twice.
give the power gamer lesser items.
That's how I'd go about it.
So you'd punish the person fully utilizing their character? I mean, if they aren't cheating and are within the rules, I see no reason to punish them. They're just doing it better. That's life. Maybe the others should talk with that player to get tips on what they can do to improve their character? The "power gamer" may have some decent ideas. I know I have learned a lot from your perspective on various classes and "power gaming" with them.
Btw, I don't think the rogue with a Dancing Sword works for a second Sneak Attack. It's not the rogue attacking, but the Dancing Sword. It would use the rogues attack roll and ability score for the damage modifier, but it makes no mention of using any class abilities with it.
It's immaterial. We're postulating that the players are good roleplayers, right? That's the premise here. So we can assume they won't metagame - that they won't, in-character, play along with punishing their team's bruiser for being a competent bruiser.
So imagine you're a member of a strike force - a squad, whose job is engaging in ludicrously dangerous combat on the regular. Yeah? And one of you regularly goes above and beyond. Just no question, does more violence than the rest of you. Has saved your life and the lives of your squadmates many times, and you can bet your bottom dollar they'll do so again at the soonest opportunity.
And then you pick up a magic sword. Are you going to a) keep it, or b) give it to the party bruiser who you know will use it better than you can to save your life?
Putting min/maxing in your build aside, absolutely everyone with any sense at all min/maxes their personal lives, optimizing for whatever it is they most desire. Anything else would be bad roleplaying. That means you can usually count on good roleplayers to attempt basic survival strategies, like giving the best weapons in the party to the most competent weapon wielder in the party, regardless of who happened to find or pick up a weapon.
This....even the most selfish roguey rogue would be like "yeah let the guy who can literally cut people in half have the thing that helps him cut people in half" if only out of a sense of self-preservation.
I have met more "optimizers" who are good roleplayers than purposeful "non-optimiziers" who end up sucking at the whole "being a party" thing.
the "Max-Minners" are more disruptive in my experience than those who are simply good at what they do. They tend to make weak characters who at best are terrible in a fight or worst avoid fighting altogether and in combat simply hide or do something even less productive.
Like it or not combat is a huge part of the game....likely for most tables (not all mind you) combat is going to be at least 40-50% of the game time.
Granted if you are DMing a game that is purposefully mostly RP (80%+) then being up front about that will likely produce more of the result you want.....but do not be surprised if no one wants to play a fighter in your 80%+ RP game.
If I were the DM and one player is clearly going above and beyond with their build, and everyone else isn't...
I'd give the other players the really powerful magic items. Give the fighter a special flame tongue homebrewed with a rarely resisted damage type instead of fire, now their damage hurts a lot even if they have GWM or not. Give the rogue a dancing sword rapier, now they can potentially sneak attack twice.
give the power gamer lesser items.
That's how I'd go about it.
So you'd punish the person fully utilizing their character? I mean, if they aren't cheating and are within the rules, I see no reason to punish them. They're just doing it better. That's life. Maybe the others should talk with that player to get tips on what they can do to improve their character? The "power gamer" may have some decent ideas. I know I have learned a lot from your perspective on various classes and "power gaming" with them.
Btw, I don't think the rogue with a Dancing Sword works for a second Sneak Attack. It's not the rogue attacking, but the Dancing Sword. It would use the rogues attack roll and ability score for the damage modifier, but it makes no mention of using any class abilities with it.
I wouldn't necessarily punish the power gamer, per se. For example, in the campaign I alluded to earlier in the thread, I got a +1 sword at lvl 3 as a fighter. That's pretty darn good. Meanwhile, our arcane trickster got a homebrewed scarab of protection, which is already a legendary rarity item, and the homebrew made it even better. Now, you guys don't know the arcane trickster, but they were THE "timmy" player. the DM specifically tossed them a flying sword their way, and even said he was allowing them to sneak attack twice a round (bonus action attack, action ready attack once turn is over). Did they ever do it? No. I could go on and on about how they basically were an AT rogue in name alone, because in practice they never utilized a single meaningful feature, aside from occasionally tossing out ice knife (which was ok cause once again, the DM also tossed them an intellect headband). Out of game, the player was a peer and great friend who I could say had comparable reasoning skills-- it just never clicked for them in game. They weren't the only one, however, as everyone else was about the same way, save for a munchkin dude who played as a CN barbarian rogue fighter who looted everything as a greedy character would. I liked him a lot!
Basically, I got something that was appropriate for my level, meanwhile the timmy got stuff that God knows they needed. What I'm suggesting is to level the playing field in the best way you can as a DM. Punishing the player is to single them out and dish out consequences after consequences aimed specifically at them. I'm just advocating for equity based on my personal experience of being on the receiving end of that treatment. The result of my experience is we were able to regularly have deadly and challenging combats where everyone was engaged fully and everyone had an opportunity to take the spotlight and share it. I think that was well worth it, and for that reason I advocate it now.
If I were the DM and one player is clearly going above and beyond with their build, and everyone else isn't...
I'd give the other players the really powerful magic items. Give the fighter a special flame tongue homebrewed with a rarely resisted damage type instead of fire, now their damage hurts a lot even if they have GWM or not. Give the rogue a dancing sword rapier, now they can potentially sneak attack twice.
give the power gamer lesser items.
That's how I'd go about it.
So you'd punish the person fully utilizing their character? I mean, if they aren't cheating and are within the rules, I see no reason to punish them. They're just doing it better. That's life. Maybe the others should talk with that player to get tips on what they can do to improve their character? The "power gamer" may have some decent ideas. I know I have learned a lot from your perspective on various classes and "power gaming" with them.
Btw, I don't think the rogue with a Dancing Sword works for a second Sneak Attack. It's not the rogue attacking, but the Dancing Sword. It would use the rogues attack roll and ability score for the damage modifier, but it makes no mention of using any class abilities with it.
I wouldn't necessarily punish the power gamer, per se. For example, in the campaign I alluded to earlier in the thread, I got a +1 sword at lvl 3 as a fighter. That's pretty darn good. Meanwhile, our arcane trickster got a homebrewed scarab of protection, which is already a legendary rarity item, and the homebrew made it even better. Now, you guys don't know the arcane trickster, but they were THE "timmy" player. the DM specifically tossed them a flying sword their way, and even said he was allowing them to sneak attack twice a round (bonus action attack, action ready attack once turn is over). Did they ever do it? No. I could go on and on about how they basically were an AT rogue in name alone, because in practice they never utilized a single meaningful feature, aside from occasionally tossing out ice knife (which was ok cause once again, the DM also tossed them an intellect headband). Out of game, the player was a peer and great friend who I could say had comparable reasoning skills-- it just never clicked for them in game. They weren't the only one, however, as everyone else was about the same way, save for a munchkin dude who played as a CN barbarian rogue fighter who looted everything as a greedy character would. I liked him a lot!
Basically, I got something that was appropriate for my level, meanwhile the timmy got stuff that God knows they needed. What I'm suggesting is to level the playing field in the best way you can as a DM. Punishing the player is to single them out and dish out consequences after consequences aimed specifically at them. I'm just advocating for equity based on my personal experience of being on the receiving end of that treatment. The result of my experience is we were able to regularly have deadly and challenging combats where everyone was engaged fully and everyone had an opportunity to take the spotlight and share it. I think that was well worth it, and for that reason I advocate it now.
CR is notorious for this....Matt will fix bad character choices with items a lot of the time. He helped Ashley out a TON with his magic item gifts to her.
Granted if you are DMing a game that is purposefully mostly RP (80%+) then being up front about that will likely produce more of the result you want.....but do not be surprised if no one wants to play a fighter in your 80%+ RP game.
In an RP-heavy game, why would people shy away from being a fighter? That doesn't make any sense to me
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Granted if you are DMing a game that is purposefully mostly RP (80%+) then being up front about that will likely produce more of the result you want.....but do not be surprised if no one wants to play a fighter in your 80%+ RP game.
In an RP-heavy game, why would people shy away from being a fighter? That doesn't make any sense to me
90% of your stuff is combat focused.
And you aren't particularly good at any non-combat checks unless you use your ASI for social/exploration feats
In addition to the observation that a quantitative evaluation of a character requires checking numbers (so hard numbers get the focus on character building), PCs don't die for bad RP; but they will die from a poor combat build. So when death is on the line, people try and focus on not dying.
If you are a DM that makes a world where RP is that fun, then I salute you. I'm still learning. But most of my focus on the character build is staying alive. Only some of it is for RP sake, but at least that is some.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Granted if you are DMing a game that is purposefully mostly RP (80%+) then being up front about that will likely produce more of the result you want.....but do not be surprised if no one wants to play a fighter in your 80%+ RP game.
In an RP-heavy game, why would people shy away from being a fighter? That doesn't make any sense to me
90% of your stuff is combat focused.
And you aren't particularly good at any non-combat checks unless you use your ASI for social/exploration feats
1) Just about every fighter subclass has cool features with non-combat applications. You can find creative uses for your echo or your Battle Master maneuvers, toss Stone Runes at bards when they just won't. stop. playing. that damn lute, etc. Not to mention the additional proficiencies
2) If it's a 90 percent RP campaign, everyone is probably using their ASIs for social/exploration feats
3) Even if none of that was true, so what? Trying to do things you aren't particularly good at and then dealing with the consequences creates classic RP shenanigans
It's almost like you're trying to optimize the role-playing somehow...
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Granted if you are DMing a game that is purposefully mostly RP (80%+) then being up front about that will likely produce more of the result you want.....but do not be surprised if no one wants to play a fighter in your 80%+ RP game.
In an RP-heavy game, why would people shy away from being a fighter? That doesn't make any sense to me
90% of your stuff is combat focused.
And you aren't particularly good at any non-combat checks unless you use your ASI for social/exploration feats
1) Just about every fighter subclass has cool features with non-combat applications. You can find creative uses for your echo or your Battle Master maneuvers, toss Stone Runes at bards when they just won't. stop. playing. that damn lute, etc. Not to mention the additional proficiencies
2) If it's a 90 percent RP campaign, everyone is probably using their ASIs for social/exploration feats
3) Even if none of that was true, so what? Trying to do things you aren't particularly good at and then dealing with the consequences creates classic RP shenanigans
It's almost like you're trying to optimize the role-playing somehow...
Nope just saying that a fighter who at best has prof. In a skill will likely not do as well as the bard who not only has expertise but has enhance ability to get ADV on the check and the slots to use it whenever they feel like it because you know.... No combat.
As for your examples Rune Knight is about the only one that gets something super useful out of combat. I think your vastly overstating what value the other fighter ribbon features do.....
Echo is good if you have exploration but that's splitting 10% that's not RP.
Also 5e is best played as a dungeon simulator... Sorry that's just the truth. 90% RP games are likely better in another system anyway
Granted if you are DMing a game that is purposefully mostly RP (80%+) then being up front about that will likely produce more of the result you want.....but do not be surprised if no one wants to play a fighter in your 80%+ RP game.
In an RP-heavy game, why would people shy away from being a fighter? That doesn't make any sense to me
90% of your stuff is combat focused.
And you aren't particularly good at any non-combat checks unless you use your ASI for social/exploration feats
1) Just about every fighter subclass has cool features with non-combat applications. You can find creative uses for your echo or your Battle Master maneuvers, toss Stone Runes at bards when they just won't. stop. playing. that damn lute, etc. Not to mention the additional proficiencies
2) If it's a 90 percent RP campaign, everyone is probably using their ASIs for social/exploration feats
3) Even if none of that was true, so what? Trying to do things you aren't particularly good at and then dealing with the consequences creates classic RP shenanigans
It's almost like you're trying to optimize the role-playing somehow...
Nope just saying that a fighter who at best has prof. In a skill will likely not do as well as the bard who not only has expertise but has enhance ability to get ADV on the check and the slots to use it whenever they feel like it because you know.... No combat.
As for your examples Rune Knight is about the only one that gets something super useful out of combat. I think your vastly overstating what value the other fighter ribbon features do.....
Echo is good if you have exploration but that's splitting 10% that's not RP.
Also 5e is best played as a dungeon simulator... Sorry that's just the truth. 90% RP games are likely better in another system anyway
Well now you're just trying to move the goalposts. At the moment we're discussing reasons to play (or not play) a fighter in an RP-heavy D&D campaign, not why other systems would be better for an RP-heavy campaign.
Echo is good for anything. Combat, exploration, pranks, dance routines, reaching something up on the top shelf in a library...
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Granted if you are DMing a game that is purposefully mostly RP (80%+) then being up front about that will likely produce more of the result you want.....but do not be surprised if no one wants to play a fighter in your 80%+ RP game.
In an RP-heavy game, why would people shy away from being a fighter? That doesn't make any sense to me
90% of your stuff is combat focused.
And you aren't particularly good at any non-combat checks unless you use your ASI for social/exploration feats
1) Just about every fighter subclass has cool features with non-combat applications. You can find creative uses for your echo or your Battle Master maneuvers, toss Stone Runes at bards when they just won't. stop. playing. that damn lute, etc. Not to mention the additional proficiencies
2) If it's a 90 percent RP campaign, everyone is probably using their ASIs for social/exploration feats
3) Even if none of that was true, so what? Trying to do things you aren't particularly good at and then dealing with the consequences creates classic RP shenanigans
It's almost like you're trying to optimize the role-playing somehow...
Nope just saying that a fighter who at best has prof. In a skill will likely not do as well as the bard who not only has expertise but has enhance ability to get ADV on the check and the slots to use it whenever they feel like it because you know.... No combat.
As for your examples Rune Knight is about the only one that gets something super useful out of combat. I think your vastly overstating what value the other fighter ribbon features do.....
Echo is good if you have exploration but that's splitting 10% that's not RP.
Also 5e is best played as a dungeon simulator... Sorry that's just the truth. 90% RP games are likely better in another system anyway
Well now you're just trying to move the goalposts. At the moment we're discussing reasons to play (or not play) a fighter in an RP-heavy D&D campaign, not why other systems would be better for an RP-heavy campaign.
Echo is good for anything. Combat, exploration, pranks, dance routines, reaching something up on the top shelf in a library...
Yes I am trying to move away from the silliness of saying a 90% combat focused class would be good in a 10% combat game....
Oh and I am sure that the silly dance/prank echo thing doesn't become stale after the 100th time....
Yes I am trying to move away from the silliness of saying a 90% combat focused class would be good in a 10% combat game....
OMG, you are trying to optimize role-playing
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes I am trying to move away from the silliness of saying a 90% combat focused class would be good in a 10% combat game....
OMG, you are trying to optimize role-playing
Not really...just saying that boofing an echo around for the 100th time (Which is pretty much just like having a worse version of Minor Illusion IMO) is not really compelling roleplay or having abilities that contribute to compelling roleplay.
And if you are not using any features of your class to RP....why are you playing 5e?
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One of the things that I LOVE about the Soul Knife is that their attacks don't rely on the Energy die so you can hold it for such circumstances. The fact that the die is only used if you succeed is awesome.
My only problem with this is when the optimised character's player doesn't turn up and combats suddenly become much more dangerous. Especially when the other players don't realise how much the maxed characters are contributing, and don't change their strategy.
In a game I run, the players still don't really do focus fire and buffing. In a battle where the players of the two ranged dpsers weren't there, they got their butts handed to them (two PCs dead, near TPK). Part of it was that I didn't realise how much damage those two characters contributed, part of it was the the remaining players just didn't play smart. Even though they were down two heavy-hitters they still split up, didn't focus fire, spent actions killing and controlling trash mobs. In a full party that would have been OK. Without the dpsers, it was bad. Wow, does that mean those five remaining characters are "the load"?
Think of it as a learning experience. The game I'm currently in had a similar battle recently, not because we were down players but we really did miss the train with regards to target selection and overall tactics.
One of our players, running a very military character (Soldier background) actually brought it up while we rested later. We all agreed with him, including the team leader, and during our next down-time we all discussed tactics. For the next battle, we were more on-point and we mopped the floor with the opposition.
Maybe your players can do the same?
D&D is an RPG. A Role Playing Game. The "Role Playing" is right there in the title - but so is the "Game". An RPG is at its best when the story parts and the game parts work in unison for a gestalt experience no other form of entertainment can provide. "Optimizers" are simply people who enjoy the 'Game' portion of an RPG as much as the 'Role Playing' portion. If I wanted nothing but game, I'd just go play a video game. If I wanted nothing but a well-crafted story, I'd go read a book or just write my own stories. Video games are vastly better at being games than D&D or any other TTRPG is. A good book is a vastly better story than most any D&D game is going to be.
When I play a game of D&D, I'm looking for the unique and irreplicable experience of getting both merged into the same thing in a way no other media can come close to. Both pieces are important. Critical, even. Telling optimizers they're godawful human beings who hate fun, their friends, their game, their DM, and the entire TTRPG hobby just because they don't actively go out of their way to be Bohemian Failure Monkeys shows a shallow, heavily flawed understanding of how this whole thing works.
So maybe don't be That One Player, eh?
Please do not contact or message me.
I can only assume the incredible defensiveness on display here is a response to other, prior threads I've never read
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
He’s obviously using hyperbole.
So you'd punish the person fully utilizing their character? I mean, if they aren't cheating and are within the rules, I see no reason to punish them. They're just doing it better. That's life. Maybe the others should talk with that player to get tips on what they can do to improve their character? The "power gamer" may have some decent ideas. I know I have learned a lot from your perspective on various classes and "power gaming" with them.
Btw, I don't think the rogue with a Dancing Sword works for a second Sneak Attack. It's not the rogue attacking, but the Dancing Sword. It would use the rogues attack roll and ability score for the damage modifier, but it makes no mention of using any class abilities with it.
It's immaterial. We're postulating that the players are good roleplayers, right? That's the premise here. So we can assume they won't metagame - that they won't, in-character, play along with punishing their team's bruiser for being a competent bruiser.
So imagine you're a member of a strike force - a squad, whose job is engaging in ludicrously dangerous combat on the regular. Yeah? And one of you regularly goes above and beyond. Just no question, does more violence than the rest of you. Has saved your life and the lives of your squadmates many times, and you can bet your bottom dollar they'll do so again at the soonest opportunity.
And then you pick up a magic sword. Are you going to a) keep it, or b) give it to the party bruiser who you know will use it better than you can to save your life?
Putting min/maxing in your build aside, absolutely everyone with any sense at all min/maxes their personal lives, optimizing for whatever it is they most desire. Anything else would be bad roleplaying. That means you can usually count on good roleplayers to attempt basic survival strategies, like giving the best weapons in the party to the most competent weapon wielder in the party, regardless of who happened to find or pick up a weapon.
This....even the most selfish roguey rogue would be like "yeah let the guy who can literally cut people in half have the thing that helps him cut people in half" if only out of a sense of self-preservation.
I have met more "optimizers" who are good roleplayers than purposeful "non-optimiziers" who end up sucking at the whole "being a party" thing.
the "Max-Minners" are more disruptive in my experience than those who are simply good at what they do. They tend to make weak characters who at best are terrible in a fight or worst avoid fighting altogether and in combat simply hide or do something even less productive.
Like it or not combat is a huge part of the game....likely for most tables (not all mind you) combat is going to be at least 40-50% of the game time.
Granted if you are DMing a game that is purposefully mostly RP (80%+) then being up front about that will likely produce more of the result you want.....but do not be surprised if no one wants to play a fighter in your 80%+ RP game.
I wouldn't necessarily punish the power gamer, per se. For example, in the campaign I alluded to earlier in the thread, I got a +1 sword at lvl 3 as a fighter. That's pretty darn good. Meanwhile, our arcane trickster got a homebrewed scarab of protection, which is already a legendary rarity item, and the homebrew made it even better. Now, you guys don't know the arcane trickster, but they were THE "timmy" player. the DM specifically tossed them a flying sword their way, and even said he was allowing them to sneak attack twice a round (bonus action attack, action ready attack once turn is over). Did they ever do it? No. I could go on and on about how they basically were an AT rogue in name alone, because in practice they never utilized a single meaningful feature, aside from occasionally tossing out ice knife (which was ok cause once again, the DM also tossed them an intellect headband). Out of game, the player was a peer and great friend who I could say had comparable reasoning skills-- it just never clicked for them in game. They weren't the only one, however, as everyone else was about the same way, save for a munchkin dude who played as a CN barbarian rogue fighter who looted everything as a greedy character would. I liked him a lot!
Basically, I got something that was appropriate for my level, meanwhile the timmy got stuff that God knows they needed. What I'm suggesting is to level the playing field in the best way you can as a DM. Punishing the player is to single them out and dish out consequences after consequences aimed specifically at them. I'm just advocating for equity based on my personal experience of being on the receiving end of that treatment. The result of my experience is we were able to regularly have deadly and challenging combats where everyone was engaged fully and everyone had an opportunity to take the spotlight and share it. I think that was well worth it, and for that reason I advocate it now.
CR is notorious for this....Matt will fix bad character choices with items a lot of the time. He helped Ashley out a TON with his magic item gifts to her.
In an RP-heavy game, why would people shy away from being a fighter? That doesn't make any sense to me
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
90% of your stuff is combat focused.
And you aren't particularly good at any non-combat checks unless you use your ASI for social/exploration feats
In addition to the observation that a quantitative evaluation of a character requires checking numbers (so hard numbers get the focus on character building), PCs don't die for bad RP; but they will die from a poor combat build. So when death is on the line, people try and focus on not dying.
If you are a DM that makes a world where RP is that fun, then I salute you. I'm still learning. But most of my focus on the character build is staying alive. Only some of it is for RP sake, but at least that is some.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
1) Just about every fighter subclass has cool features with non-combat applications. You can find creative uses for your echo or your Battle Master maneuvers, toss Stone Runes at bards when they just won't. stop. playing. that damn lute, etc. Not to mention the additional proficiencies
2) If it's a 90 percent RP campaign, everyone is probably using their ASIs for social/exploration feats
3) Even if none of that was true, so what? Trying to do things you aren't particularly good at and then dealing with the consequences creates classic RP shenanigans
It's almost like you're trying to optimize the role-playing somehow...
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Nope just saying that a fighter who at best has prof. In a skill will likely not do as well as the bard who not only has expertise but has enhance ability to get ADV on the check and the slots to use it whenever they feel like it because you know.... No combat.
As for your examples Rune Knight is about the only one that gets something super useful out of combat. I think your vastly overstating what value the other fighter ribbon features do.....
Echo is good if you have exploration but that's splitting 10% that's not RP.
Also 5e is best played as a dungeon simulator... Sorry that's just the truth. 90% RP games are likely better in another system anyway
Well now you're just trying to move the goalposts. At the moment we're discussing reasons to play (or not play) a fighter in an RP-heavy D&D campaign, not why other systems would be better for an RP-heavy campaign.
Echo is good for anything. Combat, exploration, pranks, dance routines, reaching something up on the top shelf in a library...
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes I am trying to move away from the silliness of saying a 90% combat focused class would be good in a 10% combat game....
Oh and I am sure that the silly dance/prank echo thing doesn't become stale after the 100th time....
OMG, you are trying to optimize role-playing
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not really...just saying that boofing an echo around for the 100th time (Which is pretty much just like having a worse version of Minor Illusion IMO) is not really compelling roleplay or having abilities that contribute to compelling roleplay.
And if you are not using any features of your class to RP....why are you playing 5e?