Hiding in combat might be stupid in our world. We might also say using magic is stupid or commanding eagles in combat is stupid or hanging upside down from a flying creature while cutting the heads of off orcs is stupid. The fact remains that some classes have hiding abilities to balance out the classes. Hiding is a class feature. Every class has advantages and disadvantages. I would hate to play in your campaigns.
One thing to remember is that any action taken as part of the attack, including moving out of cover, reveals you AFTER the attack, not before.
That is, you can stealthily hide behind a pillar, under a table, (anything that grants 100% cover), then pop out and make an attack or cast a verbal spell, retaining the Advantage of attacking someone that cannot see you, but losing everything after the attack.
Also, just knowing that you are in the area does not negate the Advantage of hiding. It just negates the Surprise. I.E. You can be seen in battle, attack, with a bonus action, cast invisibility and next round get an attack at advantage (but losing the Invisibility). Similarly, if the DM lets you find a place to hide, you can hide in the middle of a battle. As long as no one sees you get behind the cover/concealment (i.e. your stealth check beats their Passive Perception).
I know this topic hasn't been commented on in a while, but I'm still trying to figure things out. From what I'm reading here I'm guessing a majority of you are anti-rogue, or so it would seem.
Everyone has a different play style as well as battle style. Not everybody wants to be that rogue that waits until their buddy is next to the enemy or take the swashbuckler subclass. some people want to be that rogue that goes off and attacks someone on their own without relying on the equivalent of pact tactics that is written into the class. Besides this, as it was already said in the thread hiding offers a nice bonus to armor class if not disadvantage to attackers. There's a lot of reasons why a rogue would opt to hide as a bonus action . That's why it was written into the class.
honestly, it's things like this that cause people to go out and figure out ways around the intended rules rather than play with them in mind. For instance, I've recently created a rogue/warlock. Now I cast darkness on myself, and hide in my own darkness as I attack. I took devil's sight so I can see through my darkness, and it works out pretty well. The only reason I did this was because another DM was also against this hide action being taken.
On a side note I wish they renamed "hide armor" as something else (or even got rid of it... does any PC ever wear it except at level 1?) because it makes it harder to search for hide rules in the compendium or forum.
Stealth is useful for everyone, but martial damage dealers (like rogues) and skirmishers should pay close attention to the rules as they depend on them most heavily.
- The 3 Approaches you can take with respect to stealth: Not even trying to be sneaky; trying to be sneaky; and using careful, deliberate stalking.
- There are 4 degrees of concealment: You may be seen clearly,seen, unseen, and unseen and unheard (aka hidden)
- Finally there are 3 main benefits you gain from stealth: surprise; "unseen attacker" advantage on an attack roll, and disadvantage on attack rolls against you.
If you aren't even trying to be sneaky then enemies are going to know you're there, they are going to know where you are, and they can attack you without penalty (except from whatever physical cover you have)
If you are trying to be sneaky, there is a chance they may not know you are there - or if they do know, that they won't be sure exactly where you are. This uncertainty can allow you to postpone the onset of a combat encounter, giving you a chance to reconnoiter, try a diplomatic solution, or position yourself for an ambush or Sneak Attack.
If you are carefully and deliberately sneaking up on an enemy, you are hoping for a Surprise and/or advantage on your hit.
Being sneaky is where the "Hide" action comes into play. It's the action you take to try to approach or slip past other characters or creatures without their seeing or hearing you.
Hiding involves making a Dexterity (Stealth) check, the result of which sets the bar for how difficult it is to notice you
If the Enemies passive Wisdom (Perception)is greater than your Stealth roll, its senses are too keen (or you are too clumsy) for you to go unnoticed. If it is less than your roll then you can move about undetected - unless your enemy starts actively searching for you.
Any attempt to Hide has to take place out of the clear view of your enemy. My original 5e PHB erroneously stated "You cant hide from a creature that can see you" thankfully this was corrected to now state "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly" - which is Open to DM interpretation as they don't define "clearly"
My take is you can hide as long as either: condition of Heavy Obscurity (thick fog, dense foliage, crowd of people, darkness, etc) exist between you OR you are taking cover behind something larger than you are. **Note this doesn't necessarily mean you are out of line-of-sight for attacking purposes, only that you're obscured well enough to try to disappear from view.
Some features like Mark of the Wild and Naturally Stealthy can also allow you to attempt to Hide under other conditions.
Being Invisible allows you to Hide anywhere.
If your stealth overcomes an enemies Perception then you are hidden from that enemy - meaning unseen and unheard - and you can move about freely without being noticed *** SO LONG AS you don't step out into the open, make some conspicuous noise (like verbal spell components for example), or attack ***
If you make noise or attack then the enemy will know that you are there and where you are, but may still be unable to see you. ("I heard you sneeze behind the crate, come on out.") If you step out into the open then you are spotted
Now for Rogues specifically - You gain advantage on your attack roll if your target can't see you - this is a critical rule for rogues who should always be looking for sources of advantage so they can trigger Sneak Attack and who can Hide as a Bonus Action starting at level 2. You don't need to be hidden from your target for this - just unseen.
Once the rogue makes the attack, they give their position away, however, even though your target knows where you are, it might still be unable to see you, depending on where you are and what's going on around you (like being in fog or using greater invisibility, you attacked so they know you are there but they still can't see you).
Ideally this tactic works best with ranged attacks as heading into melee usually brings you out into the open view. However Ch 7 of the PHB says "under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain the advantage on an attack before you are seen. So an enemy facing away from you while engaged in melee with one of you allies, you could probably gain an unseen attacker advantage despite crossing open terrain - but even though it's possible this is still left up to the DM. And you can really only do this if you are hidden (unseen and unheard) when you start this maneuver. BUT don't antagonize your DM with silly rationalizations for foolish stunts.
Hide can also be used defensively, taking cover from an enemy coming after you. As long as they can't see you (even if they know where you are) gives enemies disadvantage on attack rolls against you.
If you are unseen but not hidden (unseen & unheard), a careful observer can track your movement by listening for footfalls, watching the ground for footprints, noticing things being jostled around, and so forth. If you want to be certain your movement won't be noticed you need to use the Hide action again to become hidden. Although pass without trace would dampen all these signs so long as you are still in range of the caster.
It's worth noting that both lightly and heavily obscured conditions penalize Perception checks that rely on sight only. If you hide in these conditions (like bright moonlight or thick fog respectively) an observer's passive or active Perception check may be high enough to allow it to hear you even though it might not see you. If a creature knows an enemy is somewhere nearby but can see where, they can use the Search action which gives an opportunity to make an active Perception check to locate the enemy rather than relying on their passive Perception.
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I think there is some confusion of the two uses of Hide. Hide as it pertains to a Rogue and advantage/sneak, and Hide as it pertains to perception.
If a rogue takes the hide action after walking away from the guy you just hit and walk behind a rock. You are hidden as it pertains to advantage/sneak. He doesnt know when or which side you will pop out from. But if he gets a turn before then and walks behind the rock he shouldnt have to roll to perceive you...you are there. you saw him go there and you are not NOT hidden. Standing behind the rock starting at the square he is standing on and rolling perception is not accurate.
hiding is simply the ability to not be seen. not that people not know where you are. stealth check can be made to stay quiet and move.
Hiding behind a tree, you know they are there, but to target them you have to move to get to them.
experts in hiding such as rogues could play a higher up as they get hide as a bonus action.
rogue combining Deception in combat to make you look one way and bonus hide would be similar to Batman in combat suddenly disappearing from view and enemies look all around.
wood elves in a fog to simply fade away and be lost from your perception with their Mask of the wild
hiding is simply the ability to not be seen. not that people not know where you are. stealth check can be made to stay quiet and move.
Not in 5E. "Not to be seen" is invisibility or concealment. If a foe is invisible but my character knows where they are then they are not hidden. I can attack them (at disadvantage, due to the unseen target rule). If a foe is completely concealed behind a tree then I can't attack them (since they have total concealment) but they won't get any benefits from being hidden.
The 5E rules describe "hidden" as "unseen and unheard". I think "unnoticed" should be added to this. In English, if something or someone is hidden it does mean that I don't know where the item or person is right now, but it also can mean that I don't know the thing or person is present or that it even exists.
It is all a bit arbitrary, which is why we have a person at the table who arbitrates it. We call that person a "DM".
hiding is simply the ability to not be seen. not that people not know where you are. stealth check can be made to stay quiet and move.
Not in 5E. "Not to be seen" is invisibility or concealment. If a foe is invisible but my character knows where they are then they are not hidden. I can attack them (at disadvantage, due to the unseen target rule). If a foe is completely concealed behind a tree then I can't attack them (since they have total concealment) but they won't get any benefits from being hidden.
Rules for Hiding is in PHB or Basic Rules - Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores - Using Each Ability - Dexterity, below the bit about initiative.
The only reason I make a point of saying this is because I was so confused where everyone was getting info about hiding. I searched the dndbeyond website for "Hide" and found it as an action saying that a character can "...make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding." But no link to the bit about hiding. Did a search for "hidden" and "Hiding" and still didn't find it. Anyway, I doubt anyone else is quite as daft as me, but if anyone else has trouble finding it, PHB / Basic Rules - Chapter 7 - Ability Scores - Dexterity, it's listed below the Initiative entry, not under Chapter 9 - Actions - Hide.
If you are just behind a rock or tree, you are not hiding, you just have 100% cover.
You use a Hide action AFTER you become unseen by going behind a rock or tree. It means you are not just out in the open behind the rock or tree, but have actually moved someplace ELSE, such to the next tree, under some leaves, etc..
Which is why when you go behind the rock/tree you have to make a perception check to find the hiding spot.
You can take the Hide action and attempt to hide from any creature that can't see you clearly., wether its a source of total cover, heavily obscured or other condition such as invisible or blinded.
If you are just behind a rock or tree, you are not hiding, you just have 100% cover.
Correct. If the enemy says, "I know where you are, you are over there behind that tree!" then you are not hidden from them.
If you moved and attacked from behind a different tree and the enemy said, "Arrgghh I thought they were behind that other tree!" then you were hidden from them.
Someone you think hide behind cover is still hidden, it's still unseen and unheard but guessing its location might be easier for targeting purposes.
The thing is, others don't need to not know your location for you to try to Hide, only to not see you clearly. There's even feat and feature letting you Hide when only lightly obscured and otherwise still seen such as the halfling' Naturally Stealthy or the Skulker feat.
I think the idea is that it relies on teammates to help distract it so you can get the jump, that's the main idea of rogue other than utility in proficiencies.
Yeah, our DM was showing a couple of us a preview of what all he had worked on. Only 2 of us (both utility support characters), and he was trying to wreck us with 3 or 4 goblins. It was mid-day, cloudy and in snow, few trees around...and it seemed like he was using a magical invisibility. Was ridiculous. We still are annoyed about how he handled it. Lol.
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Hiding in combat might be stupid in our world. We might also say using magic is stupid or commanding eagles in combat is stupid or hanging upside down from a flying creature while cutting the heads of off orcs is stupid. The fact remains that some classes have hiding abilities to balance out the classes. Hiding is a class feature. Every class has advantages and disadvantages. I would hate to play in your campaigns.
Hiding in the real world works very very well.
One thing to remember is that any action taken as part of the attack, including moving out of cover, reveals you AFTER the attack, not before.
That is, you can stealthily hide behind a pillar, under a table, (anything that grants 100% cover), then pop out and make an attack or cast a verbal spell, retaining the Advantage of attacking someone that cannot see you, but losing everything after the attack.
Also, just knowing that you are in the area does not negate the Advantage of hiding. It just negates the Surprise. I.E. You can be seen in battle, attack, with a bonus action, cast invisibility and next round get an attack at advantage (but losing the Invisibility). Similarly, if the DM lets you find a place to hide, you can hide in the middle of a battle. As long as no one sees you get behind the cover/concealment (i.e. your stealth check beats their Passive Perception).
I know this topic hasn't been commented on in a while, but I'm still trying to figure things out. From what I'm reading here I'm guessing a majority of you are anti-rogue, or so it would seem.
Everyone has a different play style as well as battle style. Not everybody wants to be that rogue that waits until their buddy is next to the enemy or take the swashbuckler subclass. some people want to be that rogue that goes off and attacks someone on their own without relying on the equivalent of pact tactics that is written into the class. Besides this, as it was already said in the thread hiding offers a nice bonus to armor class if not disadvantage to attackers. There's a lot of reasons why a rogue would opt to hide as a bonus action . That's why it was written into the class.
honestly, it's things like this that cause people to go out and figure out ways around the intended rules rather than play with them in mind. For instance, I've recently created a rogue/warlock. Now I cast darkness on myself, and hide in my own darkness as I attack. I took devil's sight so I can see through my darkness, and it works out pretty well. The only reason I did this was because another DM was also against this hide action being taken.
On a side note I wish they renamed "hide armor" as something else (or even got rid of it... does any PC ever wear it except at level 1?) because it makes it harder to search for hide rules in the compendium or forum.
Stealth is useful for everyone, but martial damage dealers (like rogues) and skirmishers should pay close attention to the rules as they depend on them most heavily.
- The 3 Approaches you can take with respect to stealth: Not even trying to be sneaky; trying to be sneaky; and using careful, deliberate stalking.
- There are 4 degrees of concealment: You may be seen clearly, seen, unseen, and unseen and unheard (aka hidden)
- Finally there are 3 main benefits you gain from stealth: surprise; "unseen attacker" advantage on an attack roll, and disadvantage on attack rolls against you.
If you are unseen but not hidden (unseen & unheard), a careful observer can track your movement by listening for footfalls, watching the ground for footprints, noticing things being jostled around, and so forth. If you want to be certain your movement won't be noticed you need to use the Hide action again to become hidden. Although pass without trace would dampen all these signs so long as you are still in range of the caster.
It's worth noting that both lightly and heavily obscured conditions penalize Perception checks that rely on sight only. If you hide in these conditions (like bright moonlight or thick fog respectively) an observer's passive or active Perception check may be high enough to allow it to hear you even though it might not see you. If a creature knows an enemy is somewhere nearby but can see where, they can use the Search action which gives an opportunity to make an active Perception check to locate the enemy rather than relying on their passive Perception.
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
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Contrary to popular belief, hide armor does not give a bonus to stealth checks.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think there is some confusion of the two uses of Hide. Hide as it pertains to a Rogue and advantage/sneak, and Hide as it pertains to perception.
If a rogue takes the hide action after walking away from the guy you just hit and walk behind a rock. You are hidden as it pertains to advantage/sneak. He doesnt know when or which side you will pop out from. But if he gets a turn before then and walks behind the rock he shouldnt have to roll to perceive you...you are there. you saw him go there and you are not NOT hidden. Standing behind the rock starting at the square he is standing on and rolling perception is not accurate.
hiding is simply the ability to not be seen. not that people not know where you are. stealth check can be made to stay quiet and move.
Hiding behind a tree, you know they are there, but to target them you have to move to get to them.
experts in hiding such as rogues could play a higher up as they get hide as a bonus action.
rogue combining Deception in combat to make you look one way and bonus hide would be similar to Batman in combat suddenly disappearing from view and enemies look all around.
wood elves in a fog to simply fade away and be lost from your perception with their Mask of the wild
Not in 5E. "Not to be seen" is invisibility or concealment. If a foe is invisible but my character knows where they are then they are not hidden. I can attack them (at disadvantage, due to the unseen target rule). If a foe is completely concealed behind a tree then I can't attack them (since they have total concealment) but they won't get any benefits from being hidden.
The 5E rules describe "hidden" as "unseen and unheard". I think "unnoticed" should be added to this. In English, if something or someone is hidden it does mean that I don't know where the item or person is right now, but it also can mean that I don't know the thing or person is present or that it even exists.
It is all a bit arbitrary, which is why we have a person at the table who arbitrates it. We call that person a "DM".
Indeed! In 5E, hidden is being unheard.
Rules for Hiding is in PHB or Basic Rules - Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores - Using Each Ability - Dexterity, below the bit about initiative.
The only reason I make a point of saying this is because I was so confused where everyone was getting info about hiding. I searched the dndbeyond website for "Hide" and found it as an action saying that a character can "...make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding." But no link to the bit about hiding. Did a search for "hidden" and "Hiding" and still didn't find it. Anyway, I doubt anyone else is quite as daft as me, but if anyone else has trouble finding it, PHB / Basic Rules - Chapter 7 - Ability Scores - Dexterity, it's listed below the Initiative entry, not under Chapter 9 - Actions - Hide.
If you are just behind a rock or tree, you are not hiding, you just have 100% cover.
You use a Hide action AFTER you become unseen by going behind a rock or tree. It means you are not just out in the open behind the rock or tree, but have actually moved someplace ELSE, such to the next tree, under some leaves, etc..
Which is why when you go behind the rock/tree you have to make a perception check to find the hiding spot.
You can take the Hide action and attempt to hide from any creature that can't see you clearly., wether its a source of total cover, heavily obscured or other condition such as invisible or blinded.
Correct. If the enemy says, "I know where you are, you are over there behind that tree!" then you are not hidden from them.
If you moved and attacked from behind a different tree and the enemy said, "Arrgghh I thought they were behind that other tree!" then you were hidden from them.
Someone you think hide behind cover is still hidden, it's still unseen and unheard but guessing its location might be easier for targeting purposes.
The thing is, others don't need to not know your location for you to try to Hide, only to not see you clearly. There's even feat and feature letting you Hide when only lightly obscured and otherwise still seen such as the halfling' Naturally Stealthy or the Skulker feat.
I think the idea is that it relies on teammates to help distract it so you can get the jump, that's the main idea of rogue other than utility in proficiencies.
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this game have search action. not bonus becuse hide is action only rogue can do as bonus.
but you can ready to shot bow or throw axe when enemy apear after it hide.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/basic-rules-2014/combat#Search
Yeah, our DM was showing a couple of us a preview of what all he had worked on. Only 2 of us (both utility support characters), and he was trying to wreck us with 3 or 4 goblins. It was mid-day, cloudy and in snow, few trees around...and it seemed like he was using a magical invisibility. Was ridiculous. We still are annoyed about how he handled it. Lol.