If you are creating a spellcaster, then would this be a good idea?
Have your first class be 1 level in fighter (btw, take defense fighting style), this gives you proficency in all armor and shields.
Have your race be a variant human, and take the warcaster feat.
With warcaster, you dont need a free hand to do somatic components for spells.
So, you can wear whatever armor you have and wield two shields, and you also get another plus one AC from your defense fighting style. At a minimum that's, with chain mail (you get this at level 1 for fighters) and the other things I just mentioned 21 AC (edit, I was wrong, it's Ac 19) with plate you can have AC 23 (edit, really 21) using. Dont believe me, the explanations right below (spoiler tags for brevity):
If you get enough money for plate armor you can use it to have
Plate: Base AC 18
Shield 1: +2
Shield 2: +2 (Edit: did not realize you dont count two shields)
Defense fighting style: +1
Total: 23 AC
You could have a 1 fighter / 19 wizard with THAT HIGH AC, am I missing something, or is this a really good build?
Edit: Did not know you only gain the benefits of 1 shield. Is it still good though?
Its okay but meh, a high armor class is kind of good at high levels, but most battles are fought with auras and saving throws by the time you reach level 10 - 20 so its not that good as some creatures can still bypass that armor class even with high levels and armor class so its pretty decent but still aura's and saving throws still play a pivotal role.
Shields. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
My wizards don't need high AC because they aren't front line. They are in AC 16 by using Mage Armor and a natural DEX of 16.
The general thought is that when you go out of your way to cover up a class weakness, you do it at the expense of significant resources that weaken the build. Burning a level and a feat is a high price.
The best builds are things that synergize; not ones that look to cover a weakness. I would not go this route.
There are a number of Cleric sub classes that give heavy armor proficiency and all of them give medium and shield. Arcana would give two more Wizard cantrips, 3 Cleric cantrips, first level Clerical spells and Magic Missile and Detect Magic always prepared. Shield of Faith gives you +2 AC, although requires Concentration. Or go Hexblade and get medium armor and shield, and spell slots that stack.
Shields. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
My wizards don't need high AC because they aren't front line. They are in AC 16 by using Mage Armor and a natural DEX of 16.
I think it all depends on an individual campaign. My DM isn’t shy about having encounters where even the casters can get jumped.
I do agree it usually isn’t necessary for a caster to dip fighter just for the armor, as it delays spell progression. But I wouldn’t necessarily call using your VHuman feat for Warcaster as “wasting” a feat. I did that with my Druid and have had no regrets.
This build gives you 21 AC, not 23. You can't benefit from two shields at time. Plus, the other hand needs to be free for material components, as Warcaster doesn't circumvent those. Additionally, this build cuts your speed by 10 since you (presumably) don't have enough Str to wear plate without penalty. 10 speed can be significant and sometimes can be more dangerous than higher AC.
2 levels of fighter is a feasible dip for spellcasters, but its mainly for Action Surge. The main questions are usually "when and why?". You want the tools to put that Action Surge to good use before you dip for it.
Take a level in a cleric subclass that grants heavy armor proficiency, instead of Fighter. This adds extra spells known, and keeps your spell-slot progression as if you didn't multiclass.
Forge
Life
Nature
Order
Tempest
Twilight
War
Of these my pick goes to Order, cause the effect: "If you cast a spell with a spell slot of 1st level or higher and target an ally with the spell, that ally can use their reaction immediately after the spell to make one weapon attack against a creature of your choice that you can see." is super useful on any spellcaster.
You could also get decent AC by any other medium armor caster+shield class/subclass. Artificer can wrk, since their multiclass contribution to the multiclass slots gets rounded up, not down. But any of the other clerics work great too.
My personal fav would go to Peace. The ability: "You create a magical bond among them for 10 minutes or until you use this feature again. While any bonded creature is within 30 feet of another, the creature can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw it makes. Each creature can add the d4 no more than once per turn."is very, very useful and even progresses by proficiency bonus so grows with level despite only a single level dip.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
By the time you're 20th level, many of the more dangerous foes will have attack bonuses around +15 to +19, so while having an AC of 21 might save you from the occasional hit, most of the time it wouldn't help.
You can get magical armour and shields, but priority for those would almost certainly be frontline fighters/paladins/clerics/artificers. Any of the really good armour & shields may require attunement and you only have 3 attunement slots, and almost certainly are going to want to use those on magic items more in tune with being a Wizard.
Looking at the cost of that single fighter level - it would cost the character access to the Wizard capstone feature, "Signature Spells" so you'd need to weigh that up as well. Oh, and you'd need Strength 13 or Dexterity 13 to multiclass from Fighter to Wizard, which may not be worth it, in terms of ability scores.
That said, if the campaign is starting at low level, it could be a really fun multiclass. Most campaigns wrap up well before reaching 20th level anyways.
Be aware though that you're unlikely to get your hands on a set of plate for several levels and it's pretty expensive plus, as above, priority will likely be for other characters.
tl;dr It isn't bad, but probably isn't as great as you're hoping.
Looking at the cost of that single fighter level - it would cost the character access to the Wizard capstone feature, "Signature Spells" so you'd need to weigh that up as well. Oh, and you'd need Strength 13 or Dexterity 13 to multiclass from Fighter to Wizard, which may not be worth it, in terms of ability scores.
Oooo, I never noticed that part of the Multiclassing rules - that you need the stats of BOTH your original and your new class. (I'd misunderstood it as just your new class.)
By the time you're 20th level, many of the more dangerous foes will have attack bonuses around +15 to +19, so while having an AC of 21 might save you from the occasional hit, most of the time it wouldn't help.
This is objectively incorrect, for a couple reasons. Let me explain.
Primary Reason.
Compare an AC20 with something lower, say AC15. If the enemy attacks at a +15, and assume their average damage is like 20 per hit, and they attack 3 times with their multiattack.
The higher AC is based on mundane armor and shield. And, the likelihood that at level 20 you have non-magical gear, especially on a character that is willing to multiclass for higher AC, is basically nil. So lets compare even some +2 armor/shield. Bringing the comparison from AC 15 to vs AC 24.
AC15: Same as before: 90% hit, 5% crit chance. Roughly 60 damage per round dealt.
Having higher AC, even against endgame enemies with very high +hit modifiers, still reduces the amount of damage you take. The only time it doesn't matter is if their hit modifier is higher than your entire AC value. Going from AC10 to AC15 means nothing if they have a +15 to hit. But going from AC15 to AC20 is impactful.
You can get magical armour and shields, but priority for those would almost certainly be frontline fighters/paladins/clerics/artificers. Any of the really good armour & shields may require attunement and you only have 3 attunement slots, and almost certainly are going to want to use those on magic items more in tune with being a Wizard.
This isn't an issue at 20th level. Moreover, basic +1/2/3 armor/shield does not require attunement.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I imagine someone has already told you, but just in case. You cannot take the feat warcaster as a racial feat if you start as a fighter. You need to be able to cast at least one spell to get that feat. So you would have to wait until level 5 (your level 4 wizard) to choose that feat.
If you want to be a Wizard with good AC, play a bladesinger. If you want to do arcane magic in heavy armor, play an Eldritch Knight.
However, high AC is usually not a priority for a Wizard. It is if you're going to be in melee a lot (if you play a bladesinger, for example, especially at low-medium levels). If not, it's better to focus your build on something else. A Wizard with Mage Armor and Shield spell is more than enough (you can even save yourself the Mage Armor, and that's fine too).
As a final thought, there are a lot of players concerned about getting the highest AC possible. And also some DMs concerned that their players have very high AC. But really, if you want to tank, hit points and damage resistances are more important (which is why the barbarian is the best tank in the game). Generally you are going to be facing more creatures than members in the party and, after a few attacks they make, your life is going to be reduced no matter how high your AC is. High AC helps, of course, but if the fight drags on, you're going to go down eventually. That's not to mention the countless situations where your AC isn't going to help you avoid damage (saves, for example). So, although it is a value to take into account if you are going to play someone who pretends to be in the front row, there is not so much to worry about. Resistances to the most common types of damage, and a large amount of health, are going to help you survive much more than an insane AC. And the same for DMs concerned about the AC of their players. Throw lots of creatures at them, attack their weakest saves, and watch them think twice before rushing into combat relying on their high AC.
I imagine someone has already told you, but just in case. You cannot take the feat warcaster as a racial feat if you start as a fighter. You need to be able to cast at least one spell to get that feat. So you would have to wait until level 5 (your level 4 wizard) to choose that feat.
That is no longer true with the new Strixhaven backgrounds that grant the Strixhaven Initiate feat. You can now be a level 1 V Human Fighter with the Warcaster feat.
I imagine someone has already told you, but just in case. You cannot take the feat warcaster as a racial feat if you start as a fighter. You need to be able to cast at least one spell to get that feat. So you would have to wait until level 5 (your level 4 wizard) to choose that feat.
That is no longer true with the new Strixhaven backgrounds that grant the Strixhaven Initiate feat. You can now be a level 1 V Human Fighter with the Warcaster feat.
That's for Strixhaven, a specific game setting. If your DM allows you to choose one of those backgrounds, then yes you could since you meet the required condition: The ability to cast at least one spell.
I imagine someone has already told you, but just in case. You cannot take the feat warcaster as a racial feat if you start as a fighter. You need to be able to cast at least one spell to get that feat. So you would have to wait until level 5 (your level 4 wizard) to choose that feat.
That is no longer true with the new Strixhaven backgrounds that grant the Strixhaven Initiate feat. You can now be a level 1 V Human Fighter with the Warcaster feat.
That's for Strixhaven, a specific game setting. If your DM allows you to choose one of those backgrounds, then yes you could since you meet the required condition: The ability to cast at least one spell.
But you have to meet the requirement.
A DM can restrict any game feature. They can restrict all the backgrounds in the PHB if they so choose. This seems like a given.
I'm not sure it is the most productive to aim to shut down a comment that discusses how something is possible, by stating that DMs have the freedom to ban things in their games. Again, because that is a given. DMs ban things, add things, change things, like... all the time.
But we're in the tips/tactics forums. And, the strixhaven backgrounds are official content. Discussing them shouldn't be taboo.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Usually if you're going to do a fighter dip on a wizard you take two levels to get Action Surge, but the AC is a nice to have. Assuming you're qualifying for multiclassing based on Dex rather than Str, it's not super important to have fighter be your first level, medium armor is plenty good enough and gets max benefit at a 14 stat instead of 15.
The bene for Fighter 1st is the Con Save. Not required, but pretty nice to have.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Honestly there is no build in the game that isn't better with a 2 level dip for Action Surge. The armour is pretty much irrelevant at higher levels, but Action Surge actually scales up the higher you go and allows insane double-spell combinations.
Honestly there is no build in the game that isn't better with a 2 level dip for Action Surge. The armour is pretty much irrelevant at higher levels, but Action Surge actually scales up the higher you go and allows insane double-spell combinations.
I would not go that far, Action Surge is pretty good, for spellcasters mostly when they get to a high enough level that using 2 spell slots in a turn does not weaken them for the rest of the day. Having said that a 2 level dip is significant. For example until level 19 you will always have you most powerful spells 1 level below a single caster and half the time you will have 1 asi less. If you are just looking at level 20 it depends what theother 18 levels are I would far rather have archdruid than action Surge.
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If you are creating a spellcaster, then would this be a good idea?
With warcaster, you dont need a free hand to do somatic components for spells.
So, you can wear whatever armor you have and wield two shields, and you also get another plus one AC from your defense fighting style. At a minimum that's, with chain mail (you get this at level 1 for fighters) and the other things I just mentioned 21 AC (edit, I was wrong, it's Ac 19) with plate you can have AC 23 (edit, really 21) using. Dont believe me, the explanations right below (spoiler tags for brevity):
If you get enough money for plate armor you can use it to have
Plate: Base AC 18
Shield 1: +2
Shield 2: +2 (Edit: did not realize you dont count two shields)
Defense fighting style: +1
Total: 23 AC
You could have a 1 fighter / 19 wizard with THAT HIGH AC, am I missing something, or is this a really good build?
Edit: Did not know you only gain the benefits of 1 shield. Is it still good though?
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HERE.Its okay but meh, a high armor class is kind of good at high levels, but most battles are fought with auras and saving throws by the time you reach level 10 - 20 so its not that good as some creatures can still bypass that armor class even with high levels and armor class so its pretty decent but still aura's and saving throws still play a pivotal role.
In answer to your first question, it is not a good idea since you are wasting a feat and a level for higher AC.
You can only benefit from one shield, see https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/equipment#ArmorandShields.
My wizards don't need high AC because they aren't front line. They are in AC 16 by using Mage Armor and a natural DEX of 16.
The general thought is that when you go out of your way to cover up a class weakness, you do it at the expense of significant resources that weaken the build. Burning a level and a feat is a high price.
The best builds are things that synergize; not ones that look to cover a weakness. I would not go this route.
There are a number of Cleric sub classes that give heavy armor proficiency and all of them give medium and shield. Arcana would give two more Wizard cantrips, 3 Cleric cantrips, first level Clerical spells and Magic Missile and Detect Magic always prepared. Shield of Faith gives you +2 AC, although requires Concentration. Or go Hexblade and get medium armor and shield, and spell slots that stack.
I think it all depends on an individual campaign. My DM isn’t shy about having encounters where even the casters can get jumped.
I do agree it usually isn’t necessary for a caster to dip fighter just for the armor, as it delays spell progression. But I wouldn’t necessarily call using your VHuman feat for Warcaster as “wasting” a feat. I did that with my Druid and have had no regrets.
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This build gives you 21 AC, not 23. You can't benefit from two shields at time. Plus, the other hand needs to be free for material components, as Warcaster doesn't circumvent those. Additionally, this build cuts your speed by 10 since you (presumably) don't have enough Str to wear plate without penalty. 10 speed can be significant and sometimes can be more dangerous than higher AC.
2 levels of fighter is a feasible dip for spellcasters, but its mainly for Action Surge. The main questions are usually "when and why?". You want the tools to put that Action Surge to good use before you dip for it.
Take a level in a cleric subclass that grants heavy armor proficiency, instead of Fighter. This adds extra spells known, and keeps your spell-slot progression as if you didn't multiclass.
Of these my pick goes to Order, cause the effect: "If you cast a spell with a spell slot of 1st level or higher and target an ally with the spell, that ally can use their reaction immediately after the spell to make one weapon attack against a creature of your choice that you can see." is super useful on any spellcaster.
You could also get decent AC by any other medium armor caster+shield class/subclass. Artificer can wrk, since their multiclass contribution to the multiclass slots gets rounded up, not down. But any of the other clerics work great too.
My personal fav would go to Peace. The ability: "You create a magical bond among them for 10 minutes or until you use this feature again. While any bonded creature is within 30 feet of another, the creature can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw it makes. Each creature can add the d4 no more than once per turn." is very, very useful and even progresses by proficiency bonus so grows with level despite only a single level dip.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Order's ability uses up the reaction of your ally, something they often may not want to do. Action Economy this is expensive.
I prefer Twilight. Gives you better darkvision than any race, that you can share with an ally, and lets you give someone advantage on initiative.
Not to mention granting access to Faerie Fire, one of the best 1st level spells.
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D&D Beyond FoundersBy the time you're 20th level, many of the more dangerous foes will have attack bonuses around +15 to +19, so while having an AC of 21 might save you from the occasional hit, most of the time it wouldn't help.
You can get magical armour and shields, but priority for those would almost certainly be frontline fighters/paladins/clerics/artificers. Any of the really good armour & shields may require attunement and you only have 3 attunement slots, and almost certainly are going to want to use those on magic items more in tune with being a Wizard.
Looking at the cost of that single fighter level - it would cost the character access to the Wizard capstone feature, "Signature Spells" so you'd need to weigh that up as well. Oh, and you'd need Strength 13 or Dexterity 13 to multiclass from Fighter to Wizard, which may not be worth it, in terms of ability scores.
That said, if the campaign is starting at low level, it could be a really fun multiclass. Most campaigns wrap up well before reaching 20th level anyways.
Be aware though that you're unlikely to get your hands on a set of plate for several levels and it's pretty expensive plus, as above, priority will likely be for other characters.
tl;dr It isn't bad, but probably isn't as great as you're hoping.
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Oooo, I never noticed that part of the Multiclassing rules - that you need the stats of BOTH your original and your new class. (I'd misunderstood it as just your new class.)
This is objectively incorrect, for a couple reasons. Let me explain.
Primary Reason.
Compare an AC20 with something lower, say AC15. If the enemy attacks at a +15, and assume their average damage is like 20 per hit, and they attack 3 times with their multiattack.
Secondary Reason.
The higher AC is based on mundane armor and shield. And, the likelihood that at level 20 you have non-magical gear, especially on a character that is willing to multiclass for higher AC, is basically nil. So lets compare even some +2 armor/shield. Bringing the comparison from AC 15 to vs AC 24.
Tertiary Reason.
This character has access to the shield spell. This spell can spike their ac another +5. Bringing that 24 to 29.
Conclusion.
Having higher AC, even against endgame enemies with very high +hit modifiers, still reduces the amount of damage you take. The only time it doesn't matter is if their hit modifier is higher than your entire AC value. Going from AC10 to AC15 means nothing if they have a +15 to hit. But going from AC15 to AC20 is impactful.
This isn't an issue at 20th level. Moreover, basic +1/2/3 armor/shield does not require attunement.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I imagine someone has already told you, but just in case. You cannot take the feat warcaster as a racial feat if you start as a fighter. You need to be able to cast at least one spell to get that feat. So you would have to wait until level 5 (your level 4 wizard) to choose that feat.
If you want to be a Wizard with good AC, play a bladesinger. If you want to do arcane magic in heavy armor, play an Eldritch Knight.
However, high AC is usually not a priority for a Wizard. It is if you're going to be in melee a lot (if you play a bladesinger, for example, especially at low-medium levels). If not, it's better to focus your build on something else. A Wizard with Mage Armor and Shield spell is more than enough (you can even save yourself the Mage Armor, and that's fine too).
As a final thought, there are a lot of players concerned about getting the highest AC possible. And also some DMs concerned that their players have very high AC. But really, if you want to tank, hit points and damage resistances are more important (which is why the barbarian is the best tank in the game). Generally you are going to be facing more creatures than members in the party and, after a few attacks they make, your life is going to be reduced no matter how high your AC is. High AC helps, of course, but if the fight drags on, you're going to go down eventually. That's not to mention the countless situations where your AC isn't going to help you avoid damage (saves, for example). So, although it is a value to take into account if you are going to play someone who pretends to be in the front row, there is not so much to worry about. Resistances to the most common types of damage, and a large amount of health, are going to help you survive much more than an insane AC. And the same for DMs concerned about the AC of their players. Throw lots of creatures at them, attack their weakest saves, and watch them think twice before rushing into combat relying on their high AC.
That is no longer true with the new Strixhaven backgrounds that grant the Strixhaven Initiate feat. You can now be a level 1 V Human Fighter with the Warcaster feat.
That's for Strixhaven, a specific game setting. If your DM allows you to choose one of those backgrounds, then yes you could since you meet the required condition: The ability to cast at least one spell.
But you have to meet the requirement.
A DM can restrict any game feature. They can restrict all the backgrounds in the PHB if they so choose. This seems like a given.
I'm not sure it is the most productive to aim to shut down a comment that discusses how something is possible, by stating that DMs have the freedom to ban things in their games. Again, because that is a given. DMs ban things, add things, change things, like... all the time.
But we're in the tips/tactics forums. And, the strixhaven backgrounds are official content. Discussing them shouldn't be taboo.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Usually if you're going to do a fighter dip on a wizard you take two levels to get Action Surge, but the AC is a nice to have. Assuming you're qualifying for multiclassing based on Dex rather than Str, it's not super important to have fighter be your first level, medium armor is plenty good enough and gets max benefit at a 14 stat instead of 15.
The bene for Fighter 1st is the Con Save. Not required, but pretty nice to have.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Honestly there is no build in the game that isn't better with a 2 level dip for Action Surge. The armour is pretty much irrelevant at higher levels, but Action Surge actually scales up the higher you go and allows insane double-spell combinations.
I would not go that far, Action Surge is pretty good, for spellcasters mostly when they get to a high enough level that using 2 spell slots in a turn does not weaken them for the rest of the day. Having said that a 2 level dip is significant. For example until level 19 you will always have you most powerful spells 1 level below a single caster and half the time you will have 1 asi less. If you are just looking at level 20 it depends what theother 18 levels are I would far rather have archdruid than action Surge.