Grappling builds for pirates... aquatic races that board the ship, grapple the crew/characters, and then drag them into the water. This could be their means of removing the existing crew so they can take control of the entire ship and its cargo.
For the suggestions to sink the ship, while it would be logical for the sea creatures to sink the ship and bring the uppers into the water, as a GM, what is the point?
I"M not saying you can"t, but if the party fails to save the ship, what do you do then? What are the options for the players with their PCs and the crew stuck in the middle of the ocean? If the party was supposed to get from city X to city Y, then you just sunk your game because the party has no way to get there.
If the plan was to strand the party so they could encounter allies or get captured (BAD BAD idea!) that"s a different thing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
For the suggestions to sink the ship, while it would be logical for the sea creatures to sink the ship and bring the uppers into the water, as a GM, what is the point?
I"M not saying you can"t, but if the party fails to save the ship, what do you do then? What are the options for the players with their PCs and the crew stuck in the middle of the ocean? If the party was supposed to get from city X to city Y, then you just sunk your game because the party has no way to get there.
If the plan was to strand the party so they could encounter allies or get captured (BAD BAD idea!) that"s a different thing.
Maybe there's an island with a dungeon on it that protects something the sea-races want, so they're stranding ship crews there in the hopes that one of them will eventually make it through the dangers, so the aquatic race can just fight them for the prize instead of having to face the dungeon themselves?
That would be a reason to sink the ship, but not kill the crew outright, avoiding the TPK problem.
Two thoughts 1) any party strong enough to get through a dungeon the creatures are avoiding dealing with is probably too strong for the creatures to deal with even injured.
2 to avoid fouling an drilling/cutting holes in the bottoms of ships - copper sheathing - it stopped the iron/steel drill of the Turtle in the revolutionary war and should block most sea creature efforts as well.
For the suggestions to sink the ship, while it would be logical for the sea creatures to sink the ship and bring the uppers into the water, as a GM, what is the point?
Sometimes the point is "The PCs decided to hunt for trouble and they found it"
Two thoughts 1) any party strong enough to get through a dungeon the creatures are avoiding dealing with is probably too strong for the creatures to deal with even injured.
2 to avoid fouling an drilling/cutting holes in the bottoms of ships - copper sheathing - it stopped the iron/steel drill of the Turtle in the revolutionary war and should block most sea creature efforts as well.
It doesn't have to be. Smart enemies that are more comfortable in the water have good reason to not want to explore an above-water dungeon. And if the traps are logic puzzles with potentially deadly consequences, the party circumventing the traps doesn't equate to them being unfathomably powerful, just moderately clever. And there's nothing preventing the acquatic races from having a champion or two who's on the same level as the party, or even a bit stronger. And as part of the story building, the party could pass a dozen traps with the dead bodies of previous ship crews that died attempting to get through the dungeon.
And most ships don't have good ways to defend against a water-breathing creature drilling into or sawing through the bottom of the ship... especially if there's magic tools involved.
For the suggestions to sink the ship, while it would be logical for the sea creatures to sink the ship and bring the uppers into the water, as a GM, what is the point?
I"M not saying you can"t, but if the party fails to save the ship, what do you do then? What are the options for the players with their PCs and the crew stuck in the middle of the ocean? If the party was supposed to get from city X to city Y, then you just sunk your game because the party has no way to get there.
If the plan was to strand the party so they could encounter allies or get captured (BAD BAD idea!) that"s a different thing.
And there's a good summary as to why realism shouldn't be a goal in and of itself. You want enough to make the game a) predictable. If you go to punch someone and it causes a nuclear explosion, that's going to cause a rage quit, unless it was explained before hand. And b) to make the game more immersive.
Once it's achieved those goals, it's at best unhelpful and can actively make things worse. And enemy with 30 in intelligence would be nigh on impossible to beat.
Just because it's an awesome tactic, doesn't mean it should be employed. Unless you want the the ship to sink, as a DM, you should find a reason why they won't employ it. If you do use it, be aware that you're going to have to find a reason why your baddies, who know the tactic and have used it in the past with success, no longer employ that tactic.
If a DM wants to use the tactic...sure. However, assuming you want to get the party to their destination, it's akin to hiding a key item behind a roll. It's advised against for a very good reason. It's often better to give them a challenge that leaves them more of their agency.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Even sharks can at your desecration attack the ship by collision should they be more than normal sharks. In my campaign we had a nation of zihagwin using their tridents to collectively cause damage to the ships haul. The idea was to get our party to go overboard and swim to their under water city. But most players would have gotten in the water as a last resort so I used my artificer to turn the cannon gunpowder kegs into make shift dept chargers and we ending up screwing over that whole concept, lots of floating corpses in the water however lol.
If you know your party, i’m sure even basic creatures of the sea can pose problems for the ship and the party can figure something out to solve the problem
Water Elemental or Control water to make a whirlpool to trap the vessel.
Use an anchor from a previous shipwreck to lock the anchor of the PCs' ship.
In shallow water, use Plant Growth on sea plants to prevent the ship from moving. The party would have to get into the water to chop away the plants.very time consuming and probably hazardous.
Invade the ship to poison/infest the food/water supplies onboard. If there is no Ranger/Druid that almost forces the captain to stop at the nearest island to forage for supplies and food. Not likely a great plan unless the intention is to not expose something on the ship to sea water or to force the PCs to meet with someone on the island.
Question 1) Who is doing the attacking? Who will tell you a lot about the what and why. Giant squid don’t attack for the same reason that tritons do, or with the same tools. Question 2) Why are they attacking the ship? Their reasons will set the style of the attack, one thing to consider is that while a lot of surface food, gear, supplies and cargo may not be useful under the sea, if they aren’t ruined they can be traded for stuff that is - without touching your undersea resources. On the other hand if all you is a sailor snack you may not need a prolonged attack. Question 3) What are they after? Are there specific things or people that they want to acquire? If so, why and what are they. This will help determine how intensive the attack will be. Question 4) When will they quit? Not just after they succeed, but rather at what point will they quit and leave abandoning the effort as too costly or it’s not working and needs a rethink. Are here conditions that will cause them to abandon the attack?
With that figured out how they attack will be more obvious and understandable. Generally your character’s ship is not the first or only one the bad guys have or will make so … Question 5) what defenses does the ship have? Does it have copper sheathing for antifouling and harder to cut? Does it have weapons to defend against other ships or large creatures? Does it have weapons to repel borders? Is the crew trained in the use of the weapons? All of these will help the party plan ahead to handle what may (is about to) happen. Leading to: Question 6) What information is available in port about piracy and attacks before the party ships out? Recon is essential, forewarned is forearmed. Question 7) What plans have the party put together to handle possible attacks? Yeah we all like to think we work great under pressure but reality is that having plans and knowing what each person is responsible for works even better.
Instead, they can hang out under the ship, knocking a hole or three in the hull while they have total cover from anyone on board. Then, when the ship sinks, and all the land-based folks are flailing around
While a sound tactic, we should keep in mind that drilling a hole isn't easy to do against a moving vessel unless one has considerable time on their hands. Thus, a creature or team of them should either plant some type of sticky explosive to the bottom of the ship or commence drilling when the ship is anchored or somehow stalled in the water (like via a Water Elemental).
Instead, they can hang out under the ship, knocking a hole or three in the hull while they have total cover from anyone on board. Then, when the ship sinks, and all the land-based folks are flailing around
While a sound tactic, we should keep in mind that drilling a hole isn't easy to do against a moving vessel unless one has considerable time on their hands. Thus, a creature or team of them should either plant some type of sticky explosive to the bottom of the ship or commence drilling when the ship is anchored or somehow stalled in the water (like via a Water Elemental).
That's why I recommended using ropes and nets to foul the rudder and create drag.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Instead, they can hang out under the ship, knocking a hole or three in the hull while they have total cover from anyone on board. Then, when the ship sinks, and all the land-based folks are flailing around
While a sound tactic, we should keep in mind that drilling a hole isn't easy to do against a moving vessel unless one has considerable time on their hands. Thus, a creature or team of them should either plant some type of sticky explosive to the bottom of the ship or commence drilling when the ship is anchored or somehow stalled in the water (like via a Water Elemental).
First, they have a swim speed and so can keep up with most boats. On their turn, their move matches the boats move, their action is hit the hull. Or the shark they’re riding takes the dash to keep up, and they don’t worry about moving. And who said anything about drilling? Use an axe (they have a swim speed, so they don’t have disadvantage) it will make a bigger hole. Ram it with a whale you’ve tamed.
And it doesn’t have to be easy for them, necessarily. They don’t know there’s superhero PCs on board. They think they can hang out under the hull and take their time. If it takes an hour, so what? They specifically waited until the ship was 2 days from land.
Instead, they can hang out under the ship, knocking a hole or three in the hull while they have total cover from anyone on board. Then, when the ship sinks, and all the land-based folks are flailing around
While a sound tactic, we should keep in mind that drilling a hole isn't easy to do against a moving vessel unless one has considerable time on their hands. Thus, a creature or team of them should either plant some type of sticky explosive to the bottom of the ship or commence drilling when the ship is anchored or somehow stalled in the water (like via a Water Elemental).
First, they have a swim speed and so can keep up with most boats. On their turn, their move matches the boats move, their action is hit the hull. Or the shark they’re riding takes the dash to keep up, and they don’t worry about moving. And who said anything about drilling? Use an axe (they have a swim speed, so they don’t have disadvantage) it will make a bigger hole. Ram it with a whale you’ve tamed.
And it doesn’t have to be easy for them, necessarily. They don’t know there’s superhero PCs on board. They think they can hang out under the hull and take their time. If it takes an hour, so what? They specifically waited until the ship was 2 days from land.
To be effective at making a hole you want to hit the same spot over and over again. Just because you have a swim speed does not make your hand steady enough to hit that same spot. Have you ever tried hammering something in place on board a van while it's on the highway? That's relatively easier than what you suggest because a rider is being carried by the vehicle. Exactly matching speed and striking at a certain spot over and over requires aiming, so it would necessitate an attack roll to be anything like accurate to IRL difficulty.
If you have a whale ram the boat, then you lose your element of surprise after the first collision, if not sooner.
Breaking through the hull of a wooden ship is not something that you can easily do with any stealth in the first place.
Sahuagin can cling to the outside of a ship using their claws, while other aquatic races could use spikes, hooks, or other implements to provide handholds. Big sailing ships only travel about 4 knots on average- just about anything with a swim speed is going to have no trouble keeping up with it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
First, plant the tale of ships that are left adrift. Their valuables removed and no one aboard to tell what may have happened. The ship survives bloodstained but deserted. Ships drift into shipping lanes and are discovered. Empty.
Second, tell stories of wild unknown creatures that have attacked ships but have been repelled and the tales explain how the survivors did this.
Third, have a different (competent) group of creatures attack the vessel at sea. The tactics that were used are much less effective than the stories. (different group of creatures have a better attack strategy and a defense against the tactics.)
Motivation for the attacks are to gain slaves for: Black market sale to the underdark, Mining of important metal/gems. (Why not use disposable surface dwellers.), or use in a sacrifice to a dark sea creature. (Think the maiden sacrifice to the dragon, but with people the underwater folks don't care about.)
This should give the sahuagin some motivation to attack the occupants but not care about destroying the ship. It can also lead into a number other of plots.
On drilling: it shouldn't be hard to do - if you have a drill that's long enough, and strong enough. Underwater is a poor environment for crafting quality steel tools.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Fortunately, in a fantasy setting you can just say it was crafted out of magically-strengthened coral, or the horn of the mystical ramfish, or whatever other explanation you'd like.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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Grappling builds for pirates... aquatic races that board the ship, grapple the crew/characters, and then drag them into the water. This could be their means of removing the existing crew so they can take control of the entire ship and its cargo.
Or alternatively their means of removing the crew in order to eat them.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
For the suggestions to sink the ship, while it would be logical for the sea creatures to sink the ship and bring the uppers into the water, as a GM, what is the point?
I"M not saying you can"t, but if the party fails to save the ship, what do you do then? What are the options for the players with their PCs and the crew stuck in the middle of the ocean? If the party was supposed to get from city X to city Y, then you just sunk your game because the party has no way to get there.
If the plan was to strand the party so they could encounter allies or get captured (BAD BAD idea!) that"s a different thing.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Maybe there's an island with a dungeon on it that protects something the sea-races want, so they're stranding ship crews there in the hopes that one of them will eventually make it through the dangers, so the aquatic race can just fight them for the prize instead of having to face the dungeon themselves?
That would be a reason to sink the ship, but not kill the crew outright, avoiding the TPK problem.
Two thoughts
1) any party strong enough to get through a dungeon the creatures are avoiding dealing with is probably too strong for the creatures to deal with even injured.
2 to avoid fouling an drilling/cutting holes in the bottoms of ships - copper sheathing - it stopped the iron/steel drill of the Turtle in the revolutionary war and should block most sea creature efforts as well.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Sometimes the point is "The PCs decided to hunt for trouble and they found it"
It doesn't have to be. Smart enemies that are more comfortable in the water have good reason to not want to explore an above-water dungeon. And if the traps are logic puzzles with potentially deadly consequences, the party circumventing the traps doesn't equate to them being unfathomably powerful, just moderately clever. And there's nothing preventing the acquatic races from having a champion or two who's on the same level as the party, or even a bit stronger. And as part of the story building, the party could pass a dozen traps with the dead bodies of previous ship crews that died attempting to get through the dungeon.
And most ships don't have good ways to defend against a water-breathing creature drilling into or sawing through the bottom of the ship... especially if there's magic tools involved.
And there's a good summary as to why realism shouldn't be a goal in and of itself. You want enough to make the game a) predictable. If you go to punch someone and it causes a nuclear explosion, that's going to cause a rage quit, unless it was explained before hand. And b) to make the game more immersive.
Once it's achieved those goals, it's at best unhelpful and can actively make things worse. And enemy with 30 in intelligence would be nigh on impossible to beat.
Just because it's an awesome tactic, doesn't mean it should be employed. Unless you want the the ship to sink, as a DM, you should find a reason why they won't employ it. If you do use it, be aware that you're going to have to find a reason why your baddies, who know the tactic and have used it in the past with success, no longer employ that tactic.
If a DM wants to use the tactic...sure. However, assuming you want to get the party to their destination, it's akin to hiding a key item behind a roll. It's advised against for a very good reason. It's often better to give them a challenge that leaves them more of their agency.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Even sharks can at your desecration attack the ship by collision should they be more than normal sharks. In my campaign we had a nation of zihagwin using their tridents to collectively cause damage to the ships haul. The idea was to get our party to go overboard and swim to their under water city. But most players would have gotten in the water as a last resort so I used my artificer to turn the cannon gunpowder kegs into make shift dept chargers and we ending up screwing over that whole concept, lots of floating corpses in the water however lol.
If you know your party, i’m sure even basic creatures of the sea can pose problems for the ship and the party can figure something out to solve the problem
Everyone on here has been giving great advice!
also, I’d recommend checking out the video What weapons would merfolk use, on Shadiversity.
If I haven’t offended you, don’t worry. I’m sure I’ll get to you eventually.
Use a Fireball to destroy sails of the ship.
Water Elemental or Control water to make a whirlpool to trap the vessel.
Use an anchor from a previous shipwreck to lock the anchor of the PCs' ship.
In shallow water, use Plant Growth on sea plants to prevent the ship from moving. The party would have to get into the water to chop away the plants.very time consuming and probably hazardous.
Invade the ship to poison/infest the food/water supplies onboard. If there is no Ranger/Druid that almost forces the captain to stop at the nearest island to forage for supplies and food. Not likely a great plan unless the intention is to not expose something on the ship to sea water or to force the PCs to meet with someone on the island.
Question 1) Who is doing the attacking? Who will tell you a lot about the what and why. Giant squid don’t attack for the same reason that tritons do, or with the same tools.
Question 2) Why are they attacking the ship? Their reasons will set the style of the attack, one thing to consider is that while a lot of surface food, gear, supplies and cargo may not be useful under the sea, if they aren’t ruined they can be traded for stuff that is - without touching your undersea resources. On the other hand if all you is a sailor snack you may not need a prolonged attack.
Question 3) What are they after? Are there specific things or people that they want to acquire? If so, why and what are they. This will help determine how intensive the attack will be.
Question 4) When will they quit? Not just after they succeed, but rather at what point will they quit and leave abandoning the effort as too costly or it’s not working and needs a rethink. Are here conditions that will cause them to abandon the attack?
With that figured out how they attack will be more obvious and understandable. Generally your character’s ship is not the first or only one the bad guys have or will make so …
Question 5) what defenses does the ship have? Does it have copper sheathing for antifouling and harder to cut? Does it have weapons to defend against other ships or large creatures? Does it have weapons to repel borders? Is the crew trained in the use of the weapons? All of these will help the party plan ahead to handle what may (is about to) happen. Leading to:
Question 6) What information is available in port about piracy and attacks before the party ships out? Recon is essential, forewarned is forearmed.
Question 7) What plans have the party put together to handle possible attacks? Yeah we all like to think we work great under pressure but reality is that having plans and knowing what each person is responsible for works even better.
Hope you and the party have fun!
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
While a sound tactic, we should keep in mind that drilling a hole isn't easy to do against a moving vessel unless one has considerable time on their hands. Thus, a creature or team of them should either plant some type of sticky explosive to the bottom of the ship or commence drilling when the ship is anchored or somehow stalled in the water (like via a Water Elemental).
That's why I recommended using ropes and nets to foul the rudder and create drag.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
First, they have a swim speed and so can keep up with most boats. On their turn, their move matches the boats move, their action is hit the hull. Or the shark they’re riding takes the dash to keep up, and they don’t worry about moving. And who said anything about drilling? Use an axe (they have a swim speed, so they don’t have disadvantage) it will make a bigger hole. Ram it with a whale you’ve tamed.
And it doesn’t have to be easy for them, necessarily. They don’t know there’s superhero PCs on board. They think they can hang out under the hull and take their time. If it takes an hour, so what? They specifically waited until the ship was 2 days from land.
To be effective at making a hole you want to hit the same spot over and over again. Just because you have a swim speed does not make your hand steady enough to hit that same spot. Have you ever tried hammering something in place on board a van while it's on the highway? That's relatively easier than what you suggest because a rider is being carried by the vehicle. Exactly matching speed and striking at a certain spot over and over requires aiming, so it would necessitate an attack roll to be anything like accurate to IRL difficulty.
If you have a whale ram the boat, then you lose your element of surprise after the first collision, if not sooner.
Breaking through the hull of a wooden ship is not something that you can easily do with any stealth in the first place.
Sahuagin can cling to the outside of a ship using their claws, while other aquatic races could use spikes, hooks, or other implements to provide handholds. Big sailing ships only travel about 4 knots on average- just about anything with a swim speed is going to have no trouble keeping up with it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
First, plant the tale of ships that are left adrift. Their valuables removed and no one aboard to tell what may have happened. The ship survives bloodstained but deserted. Ships drift into shipping lanes and are discovered. Empty.
Second, tell stories of wild unknown creatures that have attacked ships but have been repelled and the tales explain how the survivors did this.
Third, have a different (competent) group of creatures attack the vessel at sea. The tactics that were used are much less effective than the stories. (different group of creatures have a better attack strategy and a defense against the tactics.)
Motivation for the attacks are to gain slaves for: Black market sale to the underdark, Mining of important metal/gems. (Why not use disposable surface dwellers.), or use in a sacrifice to a dark sea creature. (Think the maiden sacrifice to the dragon, but with people the underwater folks don't care about.)
This should give the sahuagin some motivation to attack the occupants but not care about destroying the ship. It can also lead into a number other of plots.
Good Luck
On drilling: it shouldn't be hard to do - if you have a drill that's long enough, and strong enough. Underwater is a poor environment for crafting quality steel tools.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Fortunately, in a fantasy setting you can just say it was crafted out of magically-strengthened coral, or the horn of the mystical ramfish, or whatever other explanation you'd like.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.