In an upcoming campaign, I'm going to play a Human (Variant) Paladin with a greatsword. I'm considering taking the Great Weapon Master feat, but the -5 penalty to attack rolls scares me a bit. Is the feat worth taking, and when should you use it?
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"A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness." - Gal Dukat
I wouldn't bother with it at early levels. Later in the game, when AC sort of plateaus and your to hit bonus can afford the -5 is when I'd consider taking it. I would instead suggest Savage Attacker to re-roll poor damage rolls.
I would say it could depend on the campaign. AC is dependent on what your GM throws at you.
Is your GM using the Optional Rules for Flanking? Then you get Advantage and the -5 really isn't a problem. Are you fighting Zombies, a lot of Undead have really low ACs, then you can benefit from the extra damage. Same with Beasts or Oozes. Especially if the Flanking rules are in effect or you have Advantage from another source like a Master Mind Rogue.
It also gives you a Bonus Action attack on a Crit (very rare), helpful if you're Champion?, or drop an enemy. So it's good for lots of small dudes.
Metamongoose is right about GWM; it's much more useful once you've maxed out your strength and have a spell like Bless or a source of advantage helping your attacks.
Savage Attacker is a pretty weak feat, and it's even more so with a greatsword because 2d6 usually rolls close to 7 (while 1d12 can produce any number with equal probability). 9/10 times you're going to end up with two average-looking damage rolls to pick from. Adding Great Weapon Fighting Fighting Style makes the numbers even more consistent and thus Savage Attacker even less useful.
I'd consider War Caster or Sentinel instead. The former makes it easier to keep Divine Favor, Bless, Shield of Faith or Hunter's Mark going and lets you cast spells with S but no M components more easily. The latter makes it harder for enemies you've engaged to get away and discourages them from attacking anyone but you (if they do, they risk taking big damage from you.) Heavy Armor Master can also be very useful in the early levels, especially since you'll have lower AC from not using a shield, and the extra strength point is always useful.
Thanks for all the replies guys! I spoke with my DM and decided to take War Caster, since the other members of the party are already focused on fighting.
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"A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness." - Gal Dukat
In an upcoming campaign, I'm going to play a Human (Variant) Paladin with a greatsword. I'm considering taking the Great Weapon Master feat, but the -5 penalty to attack rolls scares me a bit. Is the feat worth taking, and when should you use it?
You should use it when it mathematically decreases your average time to kill a target enemy. Basically, calculate your DPR with -5/+10 and without against the target AC, then see which is higher. This is further mitigated by considering whether the extra damage would be overkill (for example, it is never beneficial to use -5/+10 on an enemy with only a couple of hit points left). Generally speaking, the lower the enemy's AC, and the more easily you can get bonuses like Bless and Advantage, and the lower your base damage per hit, the better Great Weapon Master is going to be for you.
For a Paladin, if you're prepared to smite then hitting at all is usually going to be more important than tacking on an extra +10 damage (to the point that the -5 might actually decrease your usefulness more than the +10 can raise it), but on the other hand it can raise your non-smiting damage output a good deal, especially if you're planning to have Bless and Advantage a lot.
As has been noted, this feat only really shines if you can reliably get advantage on attacks as that pretty much offsets the -5 penalty. Evaluating it standalone makes it all too subjective. So if you have abilities or allies that can give you advantage regularly, it can be brutally effective. So, the rogue archetype that can help as a bonus action. A battlemaster fighter that can distract before you hit or trip them prone for you to bash Someone who can (and does :)) cast faerie fire Or a monk that can knock people down. Things like that. That part of the feat just doesn't stand on it's own well. Mathematically speaking without something else improving your ability to hit, it isn't as powerful as it looks.
WHy do i have the impression that people always neglect to mention the other things that, that Feat can do, namely giving you a free melee attack Vs a target in range when you make a crit/reduce to 0hp with a 2H weapon...
To me it would be the most important thing of this Feat, extra free attacks when you kill stuff...
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
WHy do i have the impression that people always neglect to mention the other things that, that Feat can do, namely giving you a free melee attack Vs a target in range when you make a crit/reduce to 0hp with a 2H weapon...
Because Polearm Master's a better a feat for damage at 1st level and none of the benefits in GWM outweigh increasing your attacking ability score. 1 more hit every 20 rolls and 1 more damage on every hit is better than the chance to hit as a bonus action every 1 in 20 rolls or if you get lucky enough to finish off a monster before your friends do.
In addition to what is noted above, it is not an extra free attack. It allows you to use a bonus action to make an extra attack. I didn't cover it or mention it because it happens fairly infrequently, it is very limited, when you do get a "chance" to use it, it is really easy for it to be "burned" and competes with lots of other potential bonus action options. It is just not the "signature" part of the feat. It is the extra little perk that is a happy little bonus if it works out.
One last concern is that people who really want to get a lot of use of this part often metagame it, and "headhunt" low hp foes which can take you out of the feel of the game and feel unfun for other players as you try to "swoop in" to finish off "their" target. A perception issue but can have real consequences.
Everyone else might be saying GWM is less useful at earlier levels, but I'd say you people aren't playing Barbarians. Reckless Attack and GWM together give you greatly improved odds at landing those one shots and mortal blows in the early game where 10 Damage is a LOT bigger proportionally than later in the game. Granted you're durable enough to withstand attacks against you with advantage, you can swing all day.
Everyone else might be saying GWM is less useful at earlier levels, but I'd say you people aren't playing Barbarians. Reckless Attack and GWM togwther give you greatly improved odds at landing deadly hits in the early game where 10 Damage is a LOT bigger proportionally than later in the game.
Everyone else might be saying GWM is less useful at earlier levels, but I'd say you people aren't playing Barbarians. Reckless Attack and GWM togwther give you greatly improved odds at landing deadly hits in the early game where 10 Damage is a LOT bigger proportionally than later in the game.
That's true, but the OP is a Paladin.
Then I figure that is the case that GWM is a lot more difficult to utilize due to the penalty. However, simply because you can't Reckless Attack doesn't mean you can't find ways in which you can attack with Advantage. To get your meaty 2d6 + 2d8 + GWM, have a teammate stun or send prone an enemy that you're going to very brutally execute, or just get some Invisibility cast on you. Perhaps the perfect setup for Paladins to spam Advantage GWM isn't readily available, but can be acquired with a band of crafty party members and likely the next level.
Then I figure that is the case that GWM is a lot more difficult to utilize due to the penalty. However, simply because you can't Reckless Attack doesn't mean you can't find ways in which you can attack with Advantage. To get your meaty 2d6 + 2d8 + GWM, have a teammate stun or send prone an enemy that you're going to very brutally execute, or just get some Invisibility cast on you. Perhaps the perfect setup for Paladins to spam Advantage GWM isn't readily available, but can be acquired with a band of crafty party members and likely the next level.
Smiting is counterproductive to using GWM though. The more damage you can do in one hit, the more you're risking by accepting that -5 penalty and the less that +10 damage matters.
None of those options for getting advantage are particularly reliable or long-lasting (Invisibility only lasts for one attack.) In my opinion the only good early-game option is Faerie Fire, but it's mostly limited to bards and druids and the OP didn't mention anything about their party members.
Then I figure that is the case that GWM is a lot more difficult to utilize due to the penalty. However, simply because you can't Reckless Attack doesn't mean you can't find ways in which you can attack with Advantage. To get your meaty 2d6 + 2d8 + GWM, have a teammate stun or send prone an enemy that you're going to very brutally execute, or just get some Invisibility cast on you. Perhaps the perfect setup for Paladins to spam Advantage GWM isn't readily available, but can be acquired with a band of crafty party members and likely the next level.
Smiting is counterproductive to using GWM though. The more damage you can do in one hit, the more you're risking by accepting that -5 penalty and the less that +10 damage matters.
None of those options for getting advantage are particularly reliable or long-lasting (Invisibility only lasts for one attack.) In my opinion the only good early-game option is Faerie Fire, but it's mostly limited to bards and druids and the OP didn't mention anything about their party members.
Having a melee buddy who's a Wolf Totem Barbarian also lets you get Advantage quite often, but yeah it's tough to get reliably as a Paladin.
you can use guiding strike with great weapon master. the +10 turns into a +5 and the damage is still +10. this is a great way for paladins to deal massive amounts of damage to something on one hit esp if you smite it at the same time
One last concern is that people who really want to get a lot of use of this part often metagame it, and "headhunt" low hp foes which can take you out of the feel of the game and feel unfun for other players as you try to "swoop in" to finish off "their" target. A perception issue but can have real consequences.
There are several other abilities where the party member who does the killing blow gains a benefit too. Gaining temporary HP, summoning a Specter, healing, and free attacks are the ones that I’m familiar with. To me it usually benefits the party to have someone who gains a benefit do the killing blow instead of someone who doesn’t gain a benefit if the party has the luxury of choosing who to attack based on that.
Without trying to suggest that anyone in this thread is incorrect, I would like to point out that if your paladin is the kind of guy who likes to swing a giant sword around (and furthermore if he has the Great Weapon Fighting style), then yeah, Great Weapons Master fits your character very well and you should not let mathematics dissuade you from picking the feat if you enjoy it.
Stuff like this and Sharpshooter is really great for taking out anything with lower AC and higher health pools, though at higher levels the AC you can get away with increases because your attack mod and proficiency modifier will increase, along with you potentially getting magical weapons or other things that can boost your chances to hit. Math wise, consider that a -5 is a 25% decrease in your chances to hit, but if you have a +7 to hit and the target creature has 10 AC, you still have a very good chance to hit them, so then it becomes solely dependent on how much health they have and how much damage you will deal with and without it.
Its also really good if you have advantage on your attack, so its amazing for Barbarians after level 2 for example, and if you can restrain or flank a target that works too.
On the DM side of things, giving Kobolds this or Sharpshooter can be HILARIOUSLY lethal when you combine it with Pack Tactics.
In an upcoming campaign, I'm going to play a Human (Variant) Paladin with a greatsword. I'm considering taking the Great Weapon Master feat, but the -5 penalty to attack rolls scares me a bit. Is the feat worth taking, and when should you use it?
"A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness." - Gal Dukat
I wouldn't bother with it at early levels. Later in the game, when AC sort of plateaus and your to hit bonus can afford the -5 is when I'd consider taking it. I would instead suggest Savage Attacker to re-roll poor damage rolls.
I would say it could depend on the campaign.
AC is dependent on what your GM throws at you.
Is your GM using the Optional Rules for Flanking? Then you get Advantage and the -5 really isn't a problem.
Are you fighting Zombies, a lot of Undead have really low ACs, then you can benefit from the extra damage. Same with Beasts or Oozes.
Especially if the Flanking rules are in effect or you have Advantage from another source like a Master Mind Rogue.
It also gives you a Bonus Action attack on a Crit (very rare), helpful if you're Champion?, or drop an enemy. So it's good for lots of small dudes.
Metamongoose is right about GWM; it's much more useful once you've maxed out your strength and have a spell like Bless or a source of advantage helping your attacks.
Savage Attacker is a pretty weak feat, and it's even more so with a greatsword because 2d6 usually rolls close to 7 (while 1d12 can produce any number with equal probability). 9/10 times you're going to end up with two average-looking damage rolls to pick from. Adding Great Weapon Fighting Fighting Style makes the numbers even more consistent and thus Savage Attacker even less useful.
I'd consider War Caster or Sentinel instead. The former makes it easier to keep Divine Favor, Bless, Shield of Faith or Hunter's Mark going and lets you cast spells with S but no M components more easily. The latter makes it harder for enemies you've engaged to get away and discourages them from attacking anyone but you (if they do, they risk taking big damage from you.) Heavy Armor Master can also be very useful in the early levels, especially since you'll have lower AC from not using a shield, and the extra strength point is always useful.
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Thanks for all the replies guys! I spoke with my DM and decided to take War Caster, since the other members of the party are already focused on fighting.
"A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness." - Gal Dukat
You should use it when it mathematically decreases your average time to kill a target enemy. Basically, calculate your DPR with -5/+10 and without against the target AC, then see which is higher. This is further mitigated by considering whether the extra damage would be overkill (for example, it is never beneficial to use -5/+10 on an enemy with only a couple of hit points left). Generally speaking, the lower the enemy's AC, and the more easily you can get bonuses like Bless and Advantage, and the lower your base damage per hit, the better Great Weapon Master is going to be for you.
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As has been noted, this feat only really shines if you can reliably get advantage on attacks as that pretty much offsets the -5 penalty. Evaluating it standalone makes it all too subjective.
So if you have abilities or allies that can give you advantage regularly, it can be brutally effective.
So, the rogue archetype that can help as a bonus action.
A battlemaster fighter that can distract before you hit or trip them prone for you to bash
Someone who can (and does :)) cast faerie fire
Or a monk that can knock people down.
Things like that. That part of the feat just doesn't stand on it's own well. Mathematically speaking without something else improving your ability to hit, it isn't as powerful as it looks.
WHy do i have the impression that people always neglect to mention the other things that, that Feat can do, namely giving you a free melee attack Vs a target in range when you make a crit/reduce to 0hp with a 2H weapon...
To me it would be the most important thing of this Feat, extra free attacks when you kill stuff...
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
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Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
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In addition to what is noted above, it is not an extra free attack. It allows you to use a bonus action to make an extra attack. I didn't cover it or mention it because it happens fairly infrequently, it is very limited, when you do get a "chance" to use it, it is really easy for it to be "burned" and competes with lots of other potential bonus action options. It is just not the "signature" part of the feat. It is the extra little perk that is a happy little bonus if it works out.
One last concern is that people who really want to get a lot of use of this part often metagame it, and "headhunt" low hp foes which can take you out of the feel of the game and feel unfun for other players as you try to "swoop in" to finish off "their" target. A perception issue but can have real consequences.
Everyone else might be saying GWM is less useful at earlier levels, but I'd say you people aren't playing Barbarians. Reckless Attack and GWM together give you greatly improved odds at landing those one shots and mortal blows in the early game where 10 Damage is a LOT bigger proportionally than later in the game. Granted you're durable enough to withstand attacks against you with advantage, you can swing all day.
That's true, but the OP is a Paladin.
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Then I figure that is the case that GWM is a lot more difficult to utilize due to the penalty. However, simply because you can't Reckless Attack doesn't mean you can't find ways in which you can attack with Advantage. To get your meaty 2d6 + 2d8 + GWM, have a teammate stun or send prone an enemy that you're going to very brutally execute, or just get some Invisibility cast on you. Perhaps the perfect setup for Paladins to spam Advantage GWM isn't readily available, but can be acquired with a band of crafty party members and likely the next level.
Smiting is counterproductive to using GWM though. The more damage you can do in one hit, the more you're risking by accepting that -5 penalty and the less that +10 damage matters.
None of those options for getting advantage are particularly reliable or long-lasting (Invisibility only lasts for one attack.) In my opinion the only good early-game option is Faerie Fire, but it's mostly limited to bards and druids and the OP didn't mention anything about their party members.
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Having a melee buddy who's a Wolf Totem Barbarian also lets you get Advantage quite often, but yeah it's tough to get reliably as a Paladin.
you can use guiding strike with great weapon master. the +10 turns into a +5 and the damage is still +10. this is a great way for paladins to deal massive amounts of damage to something on one hit esp if you smite it at the same time
There are several other abilities where the party member who does the killing blow gains a benefit too. Gaining temporary HP, summoning a Specter, healing, and free attacks are the ones that I’m familiar with. To me it usually benefits the party to have someone who gains a benefit do the killing blow instead of someone who doesn’t gain a benefit if the party has the luxury of choosing who to attack based on that.
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Without trying to suggest that anyone in this thread is incorrect, I would like to point out that if your paladin is the kind of guy who likes to swing a giant sword around (and furthermore if he has the Great Weapon Fighting style), then yeah, Great Weapons Master fits your character very well and you should not let mathematics dissuade you from picking the feat if you enjoy it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Stuff like this and Sharpshooter is really great for taking out anything with lower AC and higher health pools, though at higher levels the AC you can get away with increases because your attack mod and proficiency modifier will increase, along with you potentially getting magical weapons or other things that can boost your chances to hit. Math wise, consider that a -5 is a 25% decrease in your chances to hit, but if you have a +7 to hit and the target creature has 10 AC, you still have a very good chance to hit them, so then it becomes solely dependent on how much health they have and how much damage you will deal with and without it.
Its also really good if you have advantage on your attack, so its amazing for Barbarians after level 2 for example, and if you can restrain or flank a target that works too.
On the DM side of things, giving Kobolds this or Sharpshooter can be HILARIOUSLY lethal when you combine it with Pack Tactics.
They absolutely can use heavy weapons, with disadvantage. Which could be offset by pack tactics for a wash on no change either way.