I'm a very old D&D player and have always played the Human Rogue Assassin. My challenge now is to create and play this class in fifth edition.
In my group we don't use multiclass so I don't have big doubts about the build, However, I have big doubts about the assassination skill that forms the heart of my future character.
Its functioning is clear to me: the target must be surprised, therefore according to the rules the fight must not have started yet.
This is very difficult to apply during gameplay. Perhaps easier in open spaces such as during the assault on a caravan or a camp, but I'm here to ask you for advice on how to use this ability when your character explores a dungeon with the rest of the group. What method did you find?
In old editions I often hid and hit enemies even during combat, managing to get a damage multiplier. Here it seems much more difficult unless you play completely alone. I err?
Agree with the DM what the definition of ‘surprise’ for this feature will be, before you play an assassin. This makes the difference between using the feature at most once per encounter, versus as many times as you can reasonably take an action (or bonus action) to hide and then attack.
As a DM, I’d house rule that for the purposes of this feature (and death strike), an attack on a creature that was unaware of you is a “surprise” attack. This may require extra perception or stealth rolls, with advantage or disadvantage depending on circumstance. This should let assassins use it a few times per fight, if they can plausibly hide, but probably not every round. This can get crazy at higher levels; the DM needs to keep it at a reasonable level. The “assassinate” attack, then hide as a bonus action pattern shouldn’t be repeatable every single round imo. Also, don’t forget, the target may get an opportunity attack if you need to retreat behind a corner to hide. The “mobile” feat helps with this.
For tactics, you need to be mobile, ahead or behind the party. Rules about light and cover are really important for hiding. Don’t forget that you can also assassinate with ranged weapons. You’ve also got the useful extra skills in poisons, disguise and a few interesting social things for investigating, especially in towns. Put out the lights, with a cantrip, if you can :)
It can be a very cool subclass to play but it needs a bit of DM agreement to really work.
+5 initiative, you can’t be surprised, creatures you can’t see don’t get advantage against you on attack rolls.
agreement on what surprise and hiding do is needed.
winning initiative is also needed. A creature can be “surprised” and have their first turn before you still. Dex and alert drastically reduce this likelihood.
If that doesn’t work out perhaps look into re-flavoring other subclasses or even classes. It’s very easy for a DM to snub an assassin in 5E, even without them knowing or trying to.
This goes for your teammate's too. If any of your team have an aversion to stealth or surprise, you’re whole subclass is useless when they just rush into every circumstance.
Unfortunately, the 2014 version of Assassin has very little combat support in its features, and the biggest (and typically only) one is reliant on the fairly uncommon circumstance where the party surprises enemies. RAW, you can only Surprise at the start of combat; imo trying to negotiate a broader definition is an iffy area. Really, I'd suggest seeing if they're open to letting you run the UA version of Assassin from a little while ago. The level 13 feature there doesn't mesh with the 2014 class, but otherwise it should be pretty compatible and make the features far less niche.
Agreed about making sure everyone agrees about stealth/surprise mechanics. I’d go a step further and find in advance how far from the party you need to be to make your own rolls, as opposed to getting dragged down by the paladin and fighter in their plate mail.
But the better option might be to just skip playing an assassin. It’s a pretty weak subclass. Instead think about what you like doing, and find a class/subclass combo that lets you pull that off. Things have changed a lot since the earlier editions. Don’t worry about the labels.
Assassin is weak in general play compared to other sub-classes. I would try for something that allows a strong combat role while still being part of a party.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Thank you all for your contributions. My doubts have indeed been confirmed.
I looked at the assassin from unearthed arcana, but the damage from assassinate becomes really negligible (what do I need a +8 bonus to damage at level 8?).
I thought I'd propose this, getting closer to the game of the old editions. Prevent Assassinate from working against undead and constructed (golems), but make it work when my character is properly hidden and the enemy doesn't see the attack coming (hide vs perception test before attack roll). This will be possible when the opponent does not know of my presence or does not know where I am hiding (I hide in one place, then I move to another point without him perceiving me, and finally I leap out of the new position and attack him) .
Starts fights. Don't wait for the GM to tell you what you encounter; stealth until you can see it and kill it with extreme prejudice before it knows you're there. For my money, the assassinate feature works when the player arranges for bloodshed. You have to be playing the kind of game that doesn't have moral constraints on the use of violence in order to use the feature as intended. I'd agree that a conversation with the GM is in order. You're playing Lorne Malvo out of Fargo not some principled anti-hero like John Wick.
Thank you all for your contributions. My doubts have indeed been confirmed.
I looked at the assassin from unearthed arcana, but the damage from assassinate becomes really negligible (what do I need a +8 bonus to damage at level 8?).
I thought I'd propose this, getting closer to the game of the old editions. Prevent Assassinate from working against undead and constructed (golems), but make it work when my character is properly hidden and the enemy doesn't see the attack coming (hide vs perception test before attack roll). This will be possible when the opponent does not know of my presence or does not know where I am hiding (I hide in one place, then I move to another point without him perceiving me, and finally I leap out of the new position and attack him) .
Could this be reasonable?
First, don’t get too attached to the UA. You never know what they’ll actually end up publishing. Second, your plan might work, difficult to say. A big part would depend on the campaign — if there’s a lot of undead, you might feel useless, for example. And it’s maybe a bit too strong. With the rogue’s bonus action hide and or dash, you could end up pulling it off more often than the standard design.
If you’re looking for a character that pops out of hiding to whack people, I’d suggest a gloomstalker ranger could be worth a look. Then still flavor it like a rogue. Or just check out some of the other rogue subclasses. Sneak attack is relatively easy to trigger in this edition. You’ll be doing those big damage rolls with most any rogue subclass.
Being Hidden is what gives Advantage as an unseen attacker, and it’s generally only viable from range, as for combat purposes all creatures are aware of the position of all others unless they’re unseen more or less by the moment and successfully took the Hide Action. The system isn’t meant to enable Skyrim-type stealth craziness. “Leaping out and attacking” is generally considered to break stealth in 5e. There’s really no way to “enhance” your Sneak Attack damage the way some older iterations of Assassin would, at least with Rogue features. If you’re mostly just interested in ensuring you proc it on your attacks, look at Swashbuckler or Inquisitive. If this is more about character backstory, just find a subclass you like and frame the features so they fit your backstory.
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I'm a very old D&D player and have always played the Human Rogue Assassin. My challenge now is to create and play this class in fifth edition.
In my group we don't use multiclass so I don't have big doubts about the build, However, I have big doubts about the assassination skill that forms the heart of my future character.
Its functioning is clear to me: the target must be surprised, therefore according to the rules the fight must not have started yet.
This is very difficult to apply during gameplay. Perhaps easier in open spaces such as during the assault on a caravan or a camp, but I'm here to ask you for advice on how to use this ability when your character explores a dungeon with the rest of the group. What method did you find?
In old editions I often hid and hit enemies even during combat, managing to get a damage multiplier. Here it seems much more difficult unless you play completely alone. I err?
Agree with the DM what the definition of ‘surprise’ for this feature will be, before you play an assassin. This makes the difference between using the feature at most once per encounter, versus as many times as you can reasonably take an action (or bonus action) to hide and then attack.
As a DM, I’d house rule that for the purposes of this feature (and death strike), an attack on a creature that was unaware of you is a “surprise” attack. This may require extra perception or stealth rolls, with advantage or disadvantage depending on circumstance. This should let assassins use it a few times per fight, if they can plausibly hide, but probably not every round. This can get crazy at higher levels; the DM needs to keep it at a reasonable level. The “assassinate” attack, then hide as a bonus action pattern shouldn’t be repeatable every single round imo. Also, don’t forget, the target may get an opportunity attack if you need to retreat behind a corner to hide. The “mobile” feat helps with this.
For tactics, you need to be mobile, ahead or behind the party. Rules about light and cover are really important for hiding. Don’t forget that you can also assassinate with ranged weapons. You’ve also got the useful extra skills in poisons, disguise and a few interesting social things for investigating, especially in towns. Put out the lights, with a cantrip, if you can :)
It can be a very cool subclass to play but it needs a bit of DM agreement to really work.
Human variant, alert feat.
+5 initiative, you can’t be surprised, creatures you can’t see don’t get advantage against you on attack rolls.
agreement on what surprise and hiding do is needed.
winning initiative is also needed. A creature can be “surprised” and have their first turn before you still. Dex and alert drastically reduce this likelihood.
If that doesn’t work out perhaps look into re-flavoring other subclasses or even classes. It’s very easy for a DM to snub an assassin in 5E, even without them knowing or trying to.
This goes for your teammate's too. If any of your team have an aversion to stealth or surprise, you’re whole subclass is useless when they just rush into every circumstance.
Unfortunately, the 2014 version of Assassin has very little combat support in its features, and the biggest (and typically only) one is reliant on the fairly uncommon circumstance where the party surprises enemies. RAW, you can only Surprise at the start of combat; imo trying to negotiate a broader definition is an iffy area. Really, I'd suggest seeing if they're open to letting you run the UA version of Assassin from a little while ago. The level 13 feature there doesn't mesh with the 2014 class, but otherwise it should be pretty compatible and make the features far less niche.
Agreed about making sure everyone agrees about stealth/surprise mechanics. I’d go a step further and find in advance how far from the party you need to be to make your own rolls, as opposed to getting dragged down by the paladin and fighter in their plate mail.
But the better option might be to just skip playing an assassin. It’s a pretty weak subclass. Instead think about what you like doing, and find a class/subclass combo that lets you pull that off. Things have changed a lot since the earlier editions. Don’t worry about the labels.
Assassin is weak in general play compared to other sub-classes. I would try for something that allows a strong combat role while still being part of a party.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Thank you all for your contributions. My doubts have indeed been confirmed.
I looked at the assassin from unearthed arcana, but the damage from assassinate becomes really negligible (what do I need a +8 bonus to damage at level 8?).
I thought I'd propose this, getting closer to the game of the old editions.
Prevent Assassinate from working against undead and constructed (golems), but make it work when my character is properly hidden and the enemy doesn't see the attack coming (hide vs perception test before attack roll). This will be possible when the opponent does not know of my presence or does not know where I am hiding (I hide in one place, then I move to another point without him perceiving me, and finally I leap out of the new position and attack him) .
Could this be reasonable?
Level scaling damage isn’t weak; it’s not out of this world, but it’s a good way to put down a minor enemy before they even get a turn.
Starts fights. Don't wait for the GM to tell you what you encounter; stealth until you can see it and kill it with extreme prejudice before it knows you're there. For my money, the assassinate feature works when the player arranges for bloodshed. You have to be playing the kind of game that doesn't have moral constraints on the use of violence in order to use the feature as intended. I'd agree that a conversation with the GM is in order. You're playing Lorne Malvo out of Fargo not some principled anti-hero like John Wick.
First, don’t get too attached to the UA. You never know what they’ll actually end up publishing.
Second, your plan might work, difficult to say. A big part would depend on the campaign — if there’s a lot of undead, you might feel useless, for example.
And it’s maybe a bit too strong. With the rogue’s bonus action hide and or dash, you could end up pulling it off more often than the standard design.
If you’re looking for a character that pops out of hiding to whack people, I’d suggest a gloomstalker ranger could be worth a look. Then still flavor it like a rogue. Or just check out some of the other rogue subclasses. Sneak attack is relatively easy to trigger in this edition. You’ll be doing those big damage rolls with most any rogue subclass.
Being Hidden is what gives Advantage as an unseen attacker, and it’s generally only viable from range, as for combat purposes all creatures are aware of the position of all others unless they’re unseen more or less by the moment and successfully took the Hide Action. The system isn’t meant to enable Skyrim-type stealth craziness. “Leaping out and attacking” is generally considered to break stealth in 5e. There’s really no way to “enhance” your Sneak Attack damage the way some older iterations of Assassin would, at least with Rogue features. If you’re mostly just interested in ensuring you proc it on your attacks, look at Swashbuckler or Inquisitive. If this is more about character backstory, just find a subclass you like and frame the features so they fit your backstory.