It seems that between Species, Masteries, Feats and Class Features and it may now be possible for martial characters to also completly lock down enemies even whilst dealing damage, allowing them to rival casters in battlefield control.
Step 1, Species: Goliath, Hill Giant Ancestry auto prone one hit (Proficiency Bonus x/long rest) - Effective 15ft. Movement Reduction for most enemies
Step 2, Masteries:
Crossbow, Heavy (Push) and has Heavy… Two hits would reduce an enemy to an effective 10ft. movement. Then with free-action could swap to Polearm if needed, for reaction. OR use a manoeuvre to reduce their movement further! Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction
Pike (Push) and has Heavy and Reach… with Pushing Attack can reduce a 30ft. enemy to an effective 10ft movement. Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction
Trident (Topple)… if you are feeling confident/risky throwing Tridents at enemies could be even more effective, but also gives the chance for a Con save… with the Pushing Attack though it would essentially reduce a 30ft. movement enemy to 0ft… at range! Potential Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction to most enemies
Javelin (Slow)… always works on hit to slow 10ft. but only works once per enemy. Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction (once per enemy per turn)
Fighting Style: Archery (Either way we don’t need to worry about multiple Thrown weapons as the 2024 PHB makes the draw part of the action to attack)
Pushing Attack / Trip Attack (Str Save), probably taking both for slightly different circumstances. Potential Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction to most enemies
Lv9 Barbarian with Brutal Strike (knockback or slow 15ft. guaranteed on hit – every attack) Effective 15ft. Movement Reduction
Lv10 World Tree Barbarian’s Battering Roots allows for extra 10ft. reach and Push/Topple in addition to normal weapon mastery. Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction -This works with any str based attack… so throwing Tridents and Javelins!
Others:
Monk
Though they will not be able to use weapon masteries (without taking the feat), unarmed strikes can be used to shove which can then also achieve plenty of the same effects especially with Four Elements for 10ft. reach and 10ft. move on failed str save every hit
Warlock
By taking the weapon mastery feat or multi-classing a Pact of the Blade invocation Warlock can use True Strike with pretty terrifying consequences.
A Heavy Crossbow or Pike is now a terror for knocking enemies backwards!
Invocations of Interest: Pact of the Blade, Repelling Blast, Eldritch Blast, Thirsting Blade (extra attack) and Devouring Blade (third Extra Attack). NOTE: the player would have to choose between Extra Attack and Cantrip stacking without a Bard, Fighter or Wizard multiclass.
Subclass: Celestial (to add Charisma mod damage a 3rd time)
Example: Goliath Eldritch Knight Fighter 7 Celestial Warlock 3 (Pact of the Blade, Repelling Blast & Eldritch Blast)
Step 4, Feats:
Crossbow Expert (More than one attack with Crossbow) unless we are using thrown weapons, then Polearm Master would be better!
Polearm Master (Bonus Action attack, reaction on entering reach, to lock someone down as a reaction)
Sentinel, to lock someone down as a reaction
Others with forced movement or mov. reduction: Telekinetic, Slasher, Shield Master, Crusher and even Charger
Lastly Great Weapon Mastery (+Prof Bonus damage to both Crossbow and Pike), doesn't help with lockdown but does deal more damage in melee and ranged
All of this makes me very excited to play a Fighter or Barbarian and catapult enemies backwards (especially if there are battlefield hazards too)
Here is a better one that requires no feats or magic items and comes online at level 2:
Fathomless Warlock - Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy for invocations.
Fathomless gets you the Tentacle of the Deep which attacks as a Bonus Action and reduces target speed by 10 ft.
Repelling Blast knocks them 10 ft. back per Eldritch Blast hit. So at level 2 it's up to 10 ft., then 20 ft. at 5, 30 ft. at 11, and 40 ft. at level 17.
Lance of Lethargy reduces their movement speed by 10 ft.
This means at level 2 (assuming both attacks hit) you have slowed them by 20 ft. and pushed them back 10 ft, essentially eliminating their movement (unless they have more than 30 ft.). At level 10, you also get a free cast of Evard's Black Tentacles, which is difficult terrain and can restrain. With your speed stealing and pushing, you can basically keep one target locked in there indefinitely.
Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy for invocations.
I think we are all well aware of what the 2014 Warlock can currently do for resourceless battlefield control (and that if anything it is getting buffed in the 2024 manual)... and other casterclasses!
What I am talking about are the exciting new possible combinations which bring control to martialclasses so that they can play at the big boy table too (with higher ac, hp and melee control options, to potentially even out some of the advantage of spell slots).
For example a lv1 Goliath Fighter with a Heavy Crossbow and Archery Fighting Style can do 1d12+3 damage and knock an enemy back 10ft. and prone… with a +7 to hit!
A four elements Goliath Monk with the grappler feat is also very exciting for battlefield control…
Lance of Lethargy reduces their movement speed by 10 ft. per Eldritch Blast hit. So at level 2 it's up to 10 ft., then 20 ft. at 5, 30 ft. at 11, and 40 ft. at level 17.
Lance of Lethargy is not that broken lol. It can only trigger once on your turn.
Whereas a lv10 Goliath World Tree Barbarian is a 55ft. movement speed large creature with over 100hp (around 116) that resists mundane damage.
This monster can then hit three creatures within 20ft. of it with a Pike for 1d10+10 (one is 1d4 instead) that pushes the creature back 25ft. and prone... then if/when an enemy comes within 10ft. on their turn it can do it again as a reaction. Essentially making the Goliath a massive shield for the party and taking up to four melee combatants out of the fight.
A martialcharacter that can control a 50ft. by 50.ft area without even moving! For more info: Link
Edit: I have just thought, if this character also had a backup Halberd, they could knock back potentially six enemies a round by 25ft. and four of those prone per long rest (using Cleave on both their turn and the enemies')... when stuck in a horde situation.
Lance of Lethargy reduces their movement speed by 10 ft. per Eldritch Blast hit. So at level 2 it's up to 10 ft., then 20 ft. at 5, 30 ft. at 11, and 40 ft. at level 17.
Lance of Lethargy is not that broken lol. It can only trigger once on your turn.
You're correct, my bad. But you still get a push per EB with Repelling Blast.
Why is that considered a good thing though? Don't you find it boring to fight enemies that are incapable of fighting back?
Because castershave been able to do the same for a long time, and it is wonderful to see that martials now have ways to meaningfully contribute to difficult encounters in such a way that they can't just be ignored by intellegent enemies (they can actually do the job of defending the backline, rather than just hope that enemies attack the front line, and stay there, instead of attacking the backline).
Why is that considered a good thing though? Don't you find it boring to fight enemies that are incapable of fighting back?
Because castershave been able to do the same for a long time, and it is wonderful to see that martials now have ways to meaningfully contribute to difficult encounters in such a way that they can't just be ignored by intellegent enemies (they can actually do the job of defending the backline, rather than just hope that enemies attack them instead of the backline).
But pushing enemies away from them doesn't defend the backline? It scatters the enemies thus allowing them to run past the martial on their next turn and attack the backline. If you want to defend your allies, then you want Sentinel and to stay within melee of the enemies. Or you can just stay among the back line throwing javelins and using a shield + the protection fighting style to discourage enemies from attacking your allies.
Agilemind, unless a monster has 50ft. plus movement speed, knocking them back 25ft. and prone does defend the backline... Especially when considering that the backline can move too (ideally behind the Barbarian).
Agilemind, unless a monster has 50ft. plus movement speed, knocking them back 25ft. and prone does defend the backline... Especially when considering that the backline can move too (ideally behind the Barbarian).
FYI Monsters can Dash, they can can have ranged attacks, they often have legendary actions or bonus actions that allow them to move. Combat doesn't usually happen in a wide open empty plane, it almost always happens in a confined space be that a building, a cave, or a ruin.
I just ran the finale for my campaign for level 12 characters, it involved:
Fighting flying storm elementals while the party was trapped on a narrow cliff path. - party had 10ft x 60 ft space they could stand on, enemies had an action that gave them a 100 ft move speed.
Fighting/Sneaking past Frost giants in a small town with many buildings that blocked line-of-sight. - party had free rein to move around but had to have a clear line-of-sight to the giants to attack them, enemies had a ranged attack (rocks)
Fighting ice zombies in narrow city streets and alleys - again line of sight requirements meant the party could get more than 50-60 ft away from a zombie and still attack it, plus enemies were attacking them from multiple sides.
Fighting a White Dragon in it's icy-cave of a lair. - enemy could fly, had ranged breath attack and legendary action to fly half of its 80ft fly speed.
Fighting a Frost-mage inside a throne room. - enemy could BA teleport to any area that had snow on it, and had 60 ft Cone of Cold ranged attacks, party was limited to a 50ft x 50ft x 50ft room.
In which of those fights would your Push-Master have excelled? And FYI this wasn't even fights designed for an optimized party, this was a party of very generic builds and not particularly challenging encounters for them.
I really don’t know why you being so negative? This is something excited, new, fun and powerful for martial characters - who need these things!
But sure, let me give it a go:
1. A dashing enemy has forgone it’s action to attack, and a ranged enemy will find that my allies are behind cover (large creature) - either way objective achieved.
2. White Dragons can be knocked prone, thats going to be an issue for it! Four Ice Zombies would be able to be permanently knocked back, seems good (this character can move too, so positioning for knock-back is pretty easy).
3. Storm Elementals with magical flying, enemies too big like Ice Giants and a teleporting frost-mage in an arena are encounters that are not suited to this character. However, against all of these enemies the Barbarian is still using it’s 55ft. movement and 20ft. reach to harass would more than meaningfully contribute - able to deal 2d10+20 1d4+10 for an average of 43.5 damage with advantage to hit (assuming hits, for simple math), which is still meaningful.
There are all sorts of encounters that are ill-suited to some characters, ranged martialsin the rain or castersin anti-magic fields etc. That doesn’t mean there are not effective generally... in fact it improves the enjoyment of the game that combat is different and there are obstacles to overcome!
When did not jumping for joy because a big corporation is trying to convince me to spend $100 dollars to keep playing a game I can already play with a few small improvements that might be useful occasionally become anathema? Why are we required to be excited about basically the same stuff with already have with a few tweaks to it (some of which are unbalanced or unclear and already require sage advice to understand and the books aren't even out yet.)?
As a DM, there is nothing that excites me in the new PHB, and some things that make me groan. As the moderator of a West Marches server who has to deal with people arguing for unreasonable & broken interpretations of the rules, there is nothing that excites me in the new PHB, and many things that make me groan. As a player there are a couple new / changed subclasses that I'd be interested in playing.
As a critical thinker, I feel this strange responsibility to point out to people how they are being suckered in by emotive-based propaganda and clever influencer-based marketing by Hasboro/WotC. And that if one thinks critically about this stuff and actually calculates the chance of success in the context of an actual game, it's not actually as spectacular as people want you to believe it to be, because it is in their own interest to make you believe it is spectacular.
Yeah I get that, I am sorry that WotC's marketing/sales direction has caused such anathema! I'm willing to spend that money, so I suppose as far as you are concerned I am a part of the problem :-/
However, it's heartening to know that your negativity towards my enthusiasm is misplaced, and that you are actually upset about any One DnD 2024 content... I hope you enjoy continuing to play 5e 2014!
I thank you for your insights Agilemind but please may you let the rest of this thread be about the 2024 martial characters new capacity to control the battlefield
that you are actually upset about any One DnD 2014 content
These are more of societal problems in general IMO. People tying their identity to brands who do not care about you, and the promulgation of "content" for the sake of "content". And thus the parallel shift of companies making stuff for people to make "content" about it rather than making stuff for people to actually use to play the game. What I want out of a game system is a game that is fun to play, not a bunch of rules that I can use to make hypothetical 'builds' out of or calculate theoretical maximum whatever that I can put online in order to accrue 'likes' or 'views'.
I think the potential of battlefield control is better explored in practical scenarios... so I rolled up a few deadly Random Encounters in the Underdark for 4 lv10 party members:
If we follow the most popular characters in 5e 2014, the party composition will be Fighter (assuming ranged), Rogue, Barbarian (the build above/link) and Wizard
Round 1: Rage and use Branches of the Tree to pull my allies behind me and us all as far from the Mind Flayers as possible. Giving Temp hit points to myself
Round 2: Assuming they try to close the distance... Give allies some temp hp, and grow to Large size with bonus action. Attacking both aberrations, which with +8 to hit against 15ac offers 91.0% to hit one and 49.0% to hit both. I am aiming to knock both of them back and prone. We will assume I get lucky and though I only knock one back and it is the Ulitharid (dealing 15-16 damage) rather than the Mind Flayer... so they will attack me:
the Ulitharid will stand and Mind Blast dealing 31 (out of 116hp) psychic damage and Korgoth will stunned for 1 minute (saving throw at the end of each turn, with a 25.0% of passing it).
the Mind Flayer will attack with it's Tentacles at advantage (84.0%) for 12.6 (15 x 0.84) psychic damage. It can't grapple Korgoth as he is large, and Korgath will still have 72.4hp left.
Round 3: Korgath is out of action but his allies have been protected... so as he still has over half health it is likely the combat will end or at least the outcome will be clear by the end of this round and it seems to me like this will be a clear victory.
It seems that between Species, Masteries, Feats and Class Features and it may now be possible for martial characters to also completly lock down enemies even whilst dealing damage, allowing them to rival casters in battlefield control.
Step 1, Species: Goliath, Hill Giant Ancestry auto prone one hit (Proficiency Bonus x/long rest) - Effective 15ft. Movement Reduction for most enemies
Step 2, Masteries:
Crossbow, Heavy (Push) and has Heavy… Two hits would reduce an enemy to an effective 10ft. movement. Then with free-action could swap to Polearm if needed, for reaction. OR use a manoeuvre to reduce their movement further! Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction
Pike (Push) and has Heavy and Reach… with Pushing Attack can reduce a 30ft. enemy to an effective 10ft movement. Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction
Trident (Topple)… if you are feeling confident/risky throwing Tridents at enemies could be even more effective, but also gives the chance for a Con save… with the Pushing Attack though it would essentially reduce a 30ft. movement enemy to 0ft… at range! Potential Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction to most enemies
Javelin (Slow)… always works on hit to slow 10ft. but only works once per enemy. Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction (once per enemy per turn)
Step 3, Class Features:
Fighter (more effective early game): Example
Fighting Style: Archery (Either way we don’t need to worry about multiple Thrown weapons as the 2024 PHB makes the draw part of the action to attack)
Pushing Attack / Trip Attack (Str Save), probably taking both for slightly different circumstances. Potential Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction to most enemies
Barbarian (More effective mid-late game): Example
Lv9 Barbarian with Brutal Strike (knockback or slow 15ft. guaranteed on hit – every attack) Effective 15ft. Movement Reduction
Lv10 World Tree Barbarian’s Battering Roots allows for extra 10ft. reach and Push/Topple in addition to normal weapon mastery. Effective 10ft. Movement Reduction
-This works with any str based attack… so throwing Tridents and Javelins!
Others:
Monk
Though they will not be able to use weapon masteries (without taking the feat), unarmed strikes can be used to shove which can then also achieve plenty of the same effects especially with Four Elements for 10ft. reach and 10ft. move on failed str save every hit
Warlock
By taking the weapon mastery feat or multi-classing a Pact of the Blade invocation Warlock can use True Strike with pretty terrifying consequences.
A Heavy Crossbow or Pike is now a terror for knocking enemies backwards!
Invocations of Interest: Pact of the Blade, Repelling Blast, Eldritch Blast, Thirsting Blade (extra attack) and Devouring Blade (third Extra Attack). NOTE: the player would have to choose between Extra Attack and Cantrip stacking without a Bard, Fighter or Wizard multiclass.
Subclass: Celestial (to add Charisma mod damage a 3rd time)
Example: Goliath Eldritch Knight Fighter 7 Celestial Warlock 3 (Pact of the Blade, Repelling Blast & Eldritch Blast)
Step 4, Feats:
Crossbow Expert (More than one attack with Crossbow) unless we are using thrown weapons, then Polearm Master would be better!
Polearm Master (Bonus Action attack, reaction on entering reach, to lock someone down as a reaction)
Sentinel, to lock someone down as a reaction
Others with forced movement or mov. reduction: Telekinetic, Slasher, Shield Master, Crusher and even Charger
Lastly Great Weapon Mastery (+Prof Bonus damage to both Crossbow and Pike), doesn't help with lockdown but does deal more damage in melee and ranged
All of this makes me very excited to play a Fighter or Barbarian and catapult enemies backwards (especially if there are battlefield hazards too)
Here is a better one that requires no feats or magic items and comes online at level 2:
Fathomless Warlock - Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy for invocations.
This means at level 2 (assuming both attacks hit) you have slowed them by 20 ft. and pushed them back 10 ft, essentially eliminating their movement (unless they have more than 30 ft.). At level 10, you also get a free cast of Evard's Black Tentacles, which is difficult terrain and can restrain. With your speed stealing and pushing, you can basically keep one target locked in there indefinitely.
I think we are all well aware of what the 2014 Warlock can currently do for resourceless battlefield control (and that if anything it is getting buffed in the 2024 manual)... and other caster classes!
What I am talking about are the exciting new possible combinations which bring control to martial classes so that they can play at the big boy table too (with higher ac, hp and melee control options, to potentially even out some of the advantage of spell slots).
For example a lv1 Goliath Fighter with a Heavy Crossbow and Archery Fighting Style can do 1d12+3 damage and knock an enemy back 10ft. and prone… with a +7 to hit!
A four elements Goliath Monk with the grappler feat is also very exciting for battlefield control…
Lance of Lethargy is not that broken lol. It can only trigger once on your turn.
Whereas a lv10 Goliath World Tree Barbarian is a 55ft. movement speed large creature with over 100hp (around 116) that resists mundane damage.
This monster can then hit three creatures within 20ft. of it with a Pike for 1d10+10 (one is 1d4 instead) that pushes the creature back 25ft. and prone... then if/when an enemy comes within 10ft. on their turn it can do it again as a reaction. Essentially making the Goliath a massive shield for the party and taking up to four melee combatants out of the fight.
A martial character that can control a 50ft. by 50.ft area without even moving! For more info: Link
Edit: I have just thought, if this character also had a backup Halberd, they could knock back potentially six enemies a round by 25ft. and four of those prone per long rest (using Cleave on both their turn and the enemies')... when stuck in a horde situation.
Why is that considered a good thing though? Don't you find it boring to fight enemies that are incapable of fighting back?
You're correct, my bad. But you still get a push per EB with Repelling Blast.
Because casters have been able to do the same for a long time, and it is wonderful to see that martials now have ways to meaningfully contribute to difficult encounters in such a way that they can't just be ignored by intellegent enemies (they can actually do the job of defending the backline, rather than just hope that enemies attack the front line, and stay there, instead of attacking the backline).
But pushing enemies away from them doesn't defend the backline? It scatters the enemies thus allowing them to run past the martial on their next turn and attack the backline. If you want to defend your allies, then you want Sentinel and to stay within melee of the enemies. Or you can just stay among the back line throwing javelins and using a shield + the protection fighting style to discourage enemies from attacking your allies.
Agilemind, unless a monster has 50ft. plus movement speed, knocking them back 25ft. and prone does defend the backline... Especially when considering that the backline can move too (ideally behind the Barbarian).
FYI Monsters can Dash, they can can have ranged attacks, they often have legendary actions or bonus actions that allow them to move. Combat doesn't usually happen in a wide open empty plane, it almost always happens in a confined space be that a building, a cave, or a ruin.
I just ran the finale for my campaign for level 12 characters, it involved:
In which of those fights would your Push-Master have excelled? And FYI this wasn't even fights designed for an optimized party, this was a party of very generic builds and not particularly challenging encounters for them.
I really don’t know why you being so negative? This is something excited, new, fun and powerful for martial characters - who need these things!
But sure, let me give it a go:
1. A dashing enemy has forgone it’s action to attack, and a ranged enemy will find that my allies are behind cover (large creature) - either way objective achieved.
2. White Dragons can be knocked prone, thats going to be an issue for it! Four Ice Zombies would be able to be permanently knocked back, seems good (this character can move too, so positioning for knock-back is pretty easy).
3. Storm Elementals with magical flying, enemies too big like Ice Giants and a teleporting frost-mage in an arena are encounters that are not suited to this character. However, against all of these enemies the Barbarian is still using it’s 55ft. movement and 20ft. reach to harass would more than meaningfully contribute - able to deal 2d10+20 1d4+10 for an average of 43.5 damage with advantage to hit (assuming hits, for simple math), which is still meaningful.
There are all sorts of encounters that are ill-suited to some characters, ranged martials in the rain or casters in anti-magic fields etc. That doesn’t mean there are not effective generally... in fact it improves the enjoyment of the game that combat is different and there are obstacles to overcome!
When did not jumping for joy because a big corporation is trying to convince me to spend $100 dollars to keep playing a game I can already play with a few small improvements that might be useful occasionally become anathema? Why are we required to be excited about basically the same stuff with already have with a few tweaks to it (some of which are unbalanced or unclear and already require sage advice to understand and the books aren't even out yet.)?
As a DM, there is nothing that excites me in the new PHB, and some things that make me groan.
As the moderator of a West Marches server who has to deal with people arguing for unreasonable & broken interpretations of the rules, there is nothing that excites me in the new PHB, and many things that make me groan.
As a player there are a couple new / changed subclasses that I'd be interested in playing.
As a critical thinker, I feel this strange responsibility to point out to people how they are being suckered in by emotive-based propaganda and clever influencer-based marketing by Hasboro/WotC. And that if one thinks critically about this stuff and actually calculates the chance of success in the context of an actual game, it's not actually as spectacular as people want you to believe it to be, because it is in their own interest to make you believe it is spectacular.
Yeah I get that, I am sorry that WotC's marketing/sales direction has caused such anathema! I'm willing to spend that money, so I suppose as far as you are concerned I am a part of the problem :-/
However, it's heartening to know that your negativity towards my enthusiasm is misplaced, and that you are actually upset about any One DnD 2024 content... I hope you enjoy continuing to play 5e 2014!
I thank you for your insights Agilemind but please may you let the rest of this thread be about the 2024 martial characters new capacity to control the battlefield
These are more of societal problems in general IMO. People tying their identity to brands who do not care about you, and the promulgation of "content" for the sake of "content". And thus the parallel shift of companies making stuff for people to make "content" about it rather than making stuff for people to actually use to play the game. What I want out of a game system is a game that is fun to play, not a bunch of rules that I can use to make hypothetical 'builds' out of or calculate theoretical maximum whatever that I can put online in order to accrue 'likes' or 'views'.
I think the potential of battlefield control is better explored in practical scenarios... so I rolled up a few deadly Random Encounters in the Underdark for 4 lv10 party members:
If we follow the most popular characters in 5e 2014, the party composition will be Fighter (assuming ranged), Rogue, Barbarian (the build above/link) and Wizard
Fighting the following:
Encounter One: Ulitharid and Mind Flayer
Round 1: Rage and use Branches of the Tree to pull my allies behind me and us all as far from the Mind Flayers as possible. Giving Temp hit points to myself
Round 2: Assuming they try to close the distance... Give allies some temp hp, and grow to Large size with bonus action. Attacking both aberrations, which with +8 to hit against 15ac offers 91.0% to hit one and 49.0% to hit both. I am aiming to knock both of them back and prone. We will assume I get lucky and though I only knock one back and it is the Ulitharid (dealing 15-16 damage) rather than the Mind Flayer... so they will attack me:
the Ulitharid will stand and Mind Blast dealing 31 (out of 116hp) psychic damage and Korgoth will stunned for 1 minute (saving throw at the end of each turn, with a 25.0% of passing it).
the Mind Flayer will attack with it's Tentacles at advantage (84.0%) for 12.6 (15 x 0.84) psychic damage. It can't grapple Korgoth as he is large, and Korgath will still have 72.4hp left.
Round 3: Korgath is out of action but his allies have been protected... so as he still has over half health it is likely the combat will end or at least the outcome will be clear by the end of this round and it seems to me like this will be a clear victory.