Reading over the 2024 PHB, I found an interesting interaction between the Jump Spell and Warrior of the Elements' Elemental Attunement feat. So long as pushing an enemy into the air counts as "away from you" and so long as the enemy keeps failing Strength saves, an enterprising player would be able to:
With Monk level 5 multi attack, push the enemy 20 feet into the air with two attacks, then jump 30 feet up with the Jump spell(requires 1 turn of prep), then Flurry of Blows to pull the enemy to you and then push 10 ft. above you. Finally take a 2 level dip in Fighter to Action Surge and push the enemy 10 more feet away. If your DM allows it, take MotM Bugbear as your Species/Race to make your reach 20 ft.(5 base + 5 from bugbear + 10 from Elemental Attunement) in order to push the enemy another 10 feet for a total of 60 feet in the air; that's 6d6 of fall damage at the end of 6d8 + 5 times your Dex. damage that's your choice of Fire, Lightning, Cold, Acid, Thunder, Force, or Bludgeoning. With a Dex bonus of +4, it comes out to an average of 66 damage, possibly more if there are crits(achievable more easily by taking Champion Fighter for your 8th level), disables, and/or Bugbear bonus 2d6 damage(Champion Fighter also makes this more possible w/ advantage on initiative rolls). Given good luck with crits and damage rolls, 100 damage in a single turn at level 7/8 is entirely possible, with follow up turns of dishing out 4 attacks and 40ft. of fall damage being on the table as well(avg. 44 damage). Granted, you will be taking fall damage each turn, but Monk's Slow fall feature can negate this potentially.
If a DM does not allow an upwards direction to be 'away' by default, Telekinesis could be used to set up this combo where the monk is held directly below the enemy. To increase reliability in the failure of Strength Saves, things like the Lucky feat, Bane, Bestow Curse, and others can be used.
Additional Implications: If any enemy is within 60 ft. of any cliff or ledge, pushing enemies off of all allies(deny all opportunity attacks/ grapples), being able to kill CR 6-9 creatures as a party in one turn with good rolls, potential to burn Legendary Resistances like there's no tomorrow, pushing an enemy further away from other allies than their dash speed, knocking bunches of obstacles over in a chase sequence, etc.
If the DM is letting "Up" be a direction away from your Elemental Monk, and your aim is damage, don't bother with the Jump setup. You can do this without it, and without taking Fall Damage. Yes, Slow Fall can negate, but I would much rather save that Reaction for a Deflect Attacks in most combats.
You just need a ceiling high enough to allow you to push them 10 feet off the floor. Move to 5 Foot range from your Foe.
At Monk/Warrior of the Elements level 6 (Edit: Build is level 5, not 6), two attacks. Activate Elemental Attunement. Action: Punch them Up twice(assuming hits and Failed Strength save) , let them fall twice. Also, if the foe took damage, the foe is Prone, so after the first tumble, all subsequent attacks are at Advantage from 5' away.
Bonus Action: Flurry of Blows, punch them up twice more (same assumptions), let them fall twice.
Fighter 2 Action Surge, punch them up twice more (same assumptions), let them fall twice.
There's your 6d6 extra without leaving the ground. And since we're talking Level 6 Monk here, if you actually manage to get off a Stunning Strike (and the foe fails the CON save) with your first attack all of the above Saving Throws are automatically failed.
The other reason why I wouldn't try for a full 60' punch upwards; If you've got the Grappler feat (which the Warrior of the Elements Monk I'm currently playing does) you get a free Grapple attempt on the first Attack, and can do the above without breaking the Grapple. You can then use Fast Grappler and 5' of your movement (or the Tavern Brawler / Push feat, if you took it as an Origin Feat from the Sailor Background) to move your target to a location where many low-level foes (who often have 5' reach and no ranged option) can't retaliate at you and the Foe will need to burn an Action to break your Grapple to even stand up.
Also, (and I was actually considering asking a question about this) but Bludgeoning is not one of the damage types that lets an Elemental Monk use the Elemental Strikes Move target feature.
Elemental Strikes. Whenever you hit with your Unarmed Strike, you can cause it to deal your choice of Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder damage rather than its normal damage type. When you deal one of these types with it, you can also force the target to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you can move the target up to 10 feet toward or away from you, as elemental energy swirls around it.
I've been wondering if it was an oversight by the designers., since Elemental schemes that include Earth, Water (as Ice), Wood, or Candy all seem like Crushing would be a typical type of damage that they'd do. (Metal, too, though that feels morel like it should include Slashing.) Strangely, Bludgeoning does qualify for the extra 10' reach.
In addition, the 2024 Lucky Feat does not let you affect the saving throws of foes, just their Attack Rolls.
How can directly upwards be "away" from you unless the enemy is already flying above you? If the enemy is flying above you why would they fall?
The argument is that, even using the "Circles are squares" reckoning that battlemap play uses, if you're a Medium creature, a creature that starts adjacent to you is further away from you than it started if you push it 10 feet upward, and the language of Elemental Strikes lacks the "straight away" qualifier seen in other abilities that move foes, like Weapon Mastery: Push.
It has the feel of an "Ask once, graciously accept the 'No' or the subsequent reassessment if either happens," situation.
Yeah, it's a fair bit of damage, but we're also talking 7th level characters for the above. A 7th Level Wizard, Warlock (Fiend of Efreet Genie), or Sorcerer could have hit the foe with a Fireball instead, with a lot fewer potential failure points, and it isn't limited to single-foe damage.
A 7th level spellcaster can cast Fireball a maximum of 4x per day and risks hitting their friends at the same time, an Elemental monk can use Elemental Strikes in every single combat and use the push tactic on every single round. There is no comparison there.
The target could be be on higher ground than you for example.
Regardless how, i rule a target pushed in the air is immediately falling unless it can stay aloft somehow.
That's the rules.
And this isn't gonna fly at my table, or likely any other. "Away" means "on the straight line between you and the target"., not "in an arbitrary direction as long as it puts them further away in some axis". Take your tactical control of the battlefield and your ranged grapples and enjoy them.
(If you can occasionally arrange it so that you get to do some falling damage, more power to you, but it's not part of the normal toolbox.)
I mean, there are absolutely Elemental Monk tactics that are generally usable that require less Focus Points, Fewer Failed Saving Throws, and do more damage than Punch Up. (The version described with the build above burns 60% of the Monk 5/Fighter 2's Focus points in the opening round, for a less than 20% chance of complete success)
Dousing a Creature or an Object. When you take the Attack action, you can replace one of your attacks with throwing an Oil flask. Target one creature or object within 20 feet of yourself. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw (DC 8 plus your Dexterity modifier and Proficiency Bonus) or be covered in oil. If the target takes Fire damage before the oil dries (after 1 minute), the target takes an extra 5 Fire damage from burning oil.
If that DEX save is failed, choose Fire as the damage type for all subsequent attacks, for +5 (assuming no Fire resistance) Damage on each one, handily exceeding the +3.5 average from each successful Punch Up.
Perhaps the initial intention was that the +5 damage only happen once, or once per round, but as listed, the effect lasts one minute.
I think Punch Up is funnier, though.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Perhaps the initial intention was that the +5 damage only happen once, or once per round, but as listed, the effect lasts one minute.
I think Punch Up is funnier, though.
Pretty sure it is supposed to happen only once just like Poison adds damage to only 1 attack and just like in the 2014 rules. Though I agree the new wording is very unclear.
Personally, i rule every space/square farther from yours is away and space/square nearest from yours is closer, which include diagonally being equal distance on grid.
The main 'point'(if there is any) of this post was simply to highlight a silly rules case and to stir imagination of some poor guy getting bashed 60 feet in the air or off a cliff. The more practical use case of 6 attack Elemental Monk would be to control enemy positions and setting up teammates really nicely for area spells; imagine a monk darting/jumping around the battlefield pushing enemies all to one cluster to set up for a Fireball.
I can't imagine any DM actually allowing any of that. Knocking someone straight into the air is only away from you if you are underneath it, as has been said above. Anything else is just an exploit. Even if you did it once, in order for it to take falling damage it has to hit the ground, and if it takes that damage they'll be prone - hitting them again can't knock them back into the air (away from you would be down through the ground, which would cause them to slide away from you).
If you want to allow it at your table, be my guest, but I don't know of anyone that would allow it.
Reading over the 2024 PHB, I found an interesting interaction between the Jump Spell and Warrior of the Elements' Elemental Attunement feat. So long as pushing an enemy into the air counts as "away from you" and so long as the enemy keeps failing Strength saves, an enterprising player would be able to:
With Monk level 5 multi attack, push the enemy 20 feet into the air with two attacks, then jump 30 feet up with the Jump spell(requires 1 turn of prep), then Flurry of Blows to pull the enemy to you and then push 10 ft. above you. Finally take a 2 level dip in Fighter to Action Surge and push the enemy 10 more feet away. If your DM allows it, take MotM Bugbear as your Species/Race to make your reach 20 ft.(5 base + 5 from bugbear + 10 from Elemental Attunement) in order to push the enemy another 10 feet for a total of 60 feet in the air; that's 6d6 of fall damage at the end of 6d8 + 5 times your Dex. damage that's your choice of Fire, Lightning, Cold, Acid, Thunder, Force, or Bludgeoning. With a Dex bonus of +4, it comes out to an average of 66 damage, possibly more if there are crits(achievable more easily by taking Champion Fighter for your 8th level), disables, and/or Bugbear bonus 2d6 damage(Champion Fighter also makes this more possible w/ advantage on initiative rolls). Given good luck with crits and damage rolls, 100 damage in a single turn at level 7/8 is entirely possible, with follow up turns of dishing out 4 attacks and 40ft. of fall damage being on the table as well(avg. 44 damage). Granted, you will be taking fall damage each turn, but Monk's Slow fall feature can negate this potentially.
If a DM does not allow an upwards direction to be 'away' by default, Telekinesis could be used to set up this combo where the monk is held directly below the enemy. To increase reliability in the failure of Strength Saves, things like the Lucky feat, Bane, Bestow Curse, and others can be used.
Have fun!
Additional Implications: If any enemy is within 60 ft. of any cliff or ledge, pushing enemies off of all allies(deny all opportunity attacks/ grapples), being able to kill CR 6-9 creatures as a party in one turn with good rolls, potential to burn Legendary Resistances like there's no tomorrow, pushing an enemy further away from other allies than their dash speed, knocking bunches of obstacles over in a chase sequence, etc.
If the DM is letting "Up" be a direction away from your Elemental Monk, and your aim is damage, don't bother with the Jump setup. You can do this without it, and without taking Fall Damage. Yes, Slow Fall can negate, but I would much rather save that Reaction for a Deflect Attacks in most combats.
You just need a ceiling high enough to allow you to push them 10 feet off the floor. Move to 5 Foot range from your Foe.
At Monk/Warrior of the Elements level 6 (Edit: Build is level 5, not 6), two attacks. Activate Elemental Attunement. Action: Punch them Up twice(assuming hits and Failed Strength save) , let them fall twice. Also, if the foe took damage, the foe is Prone, so after the first tumble, all subsequent attacks are at Advantage from 5' away.
Bonus Action: Flurry of Blows, punch them up twice more (same assumptions), let them fall twice.
Fighter 2 Action Surge, punch them up twice more (same assumptions), let them fall twice.
There's your 6d6 extra without leaving the ground. And since we're talking Level 6 Monk here, if you actually manage to get off a Stunning Strike (and the foe fails the CON save) with your first attack all of the above Saving Throws are automatically failed.
The other reason why I wouldn't try for a full 60' punch upwards; If you've got the Grappler feat (which the Warrior of the Elements Monk I'm currently playing does) you get a free Grapple attempt on the first Attack, and can do the above without breaking the Grapple. You can then use Fast Grappler and 5' of your movement (or the Tavern Brawler / Push feat, if you took it as an Origin Feat from the Sailor Background) to move your target to a location where many low-level foes (who often have 5' reach and no ranged option) can't retaliate at you and the Foe will need to burn an Action to break your Grapple to even stand up.
Also, (and I was actually considering asking a question about this) but Bludgeoning is not one of the damage types that lets an Elemental Monk use the Elemental Strikes Move target feature.
I've been wondering if it was an oversight by the designers., since Elemental schemes that include Earth, Water (as Ice), Wood, or Candy all seem like Crushing would be a typical type of damage that they'd do. (Metal, too, though that feels morel like it should include Slashing.) Strangely, Bludgeoning does qualify for the extra 10' reach.
In addition, the 2024 Lucky Feat does not let you affect the saving throws of foes, just their Attack Rolls.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
How can directly upwards be "away" from you unless the enemy is already flying above you? If the enemy is flying above you why would they fall?
The argument is that, even using the "Circles are squares" reckoning that battlemap play uses, if you're a Medium creature, a creature that starts adjacent to you is further away from you than it started if you push it 10 feet upward, and the language of Elemental Strikes lacks the "straight away" qualifier seen in other abilities that move foes, like Weapon Mastery: Push.
It has the feel of an "Ask once, graciously accept the 'No' or the subsequent reassessment if either happens," situation.
Yeah, it's a fair bit of damage, but we're also talking 7th level characters for the above. A 7th Level Wizard, Warlock (Fiend of Efreet Genie), or Sorcerer could have hit the foe with a Fireball instead, with a lot fewer potential failure points, and it isn't limited to single-foe damage.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
A 7th level spellcaster can cast Fireball a maximum of 4x per day and risks hitting their friends at the same time, an Elemental monk can use Elemental Strikes in every single combat and use the push tactic on every single round. There is no comparison there.
The target could be be on higher ground than you for example.
Regardless how, i rule a target pushed in the air is immediately falling unless it can stay aloft somehow.
That's the rules.
And this isn't gonna fly at my table, or likely any other. "Away" means "on the straight line between you and the target"., not "in an arbitrary direction as long as it puts them further away in some axis". Take your tactical control of the battlefield and your ranged grapples and enjoy them.
(If you can occasionally arrange it so that you get to do some falling damage, more power to you, but it's not part of the normal toolbox.)
I mean, there are absolutely Elemental Monk tactics that are generally usable that require less Focus Points, Fewer Failed Saving Throws, and do more damage than Punch Up. (The version described with the build above burns 60% of the Monk 5/Fighter 2's Focus points in the opening round, for a less than 20% chance of complete success)
Opening with an Oil Flask toss, for instance.
If that DEX save is failed, choose Fire as the damage type for all subsequent attacks, for +5 (assuming no Fire resistance) Damage on each one, handily exceeding the +3.5 average from each successful Punch Up.
Perhaps the initial intention was that the +5 damage only happen once, or once per round, but as listed, the effect lasts one minute.
I think Punch Up is funnier, though.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Pretty sure it is supposed to happen only once just like Poison adds damage to only 1 attack and just like in the 2014 rules. Though I agree the new wording is very unclear.
Personally, i rule every space/square farther from yours is away and space/square nearest from yours is closer, which include diagonally being equal distance on grid.
The main 'point'(if there is any) of this post was simply to highlight a silly rules case and to stir imagination of some poor guy getting bashed 60 feet in the air or off a cliff. The more practical use case of 6 attack Elemental Monk would be to control enemy positions and setting up teammates really nicely for area spells; imagine a monk darting/jumping around the battlefield pushing enemies all to one cluster to set up for a Fireball.
I can't imagine any DM actually allowing any of that. Knocking someone straight into the air is only away from you if you are underneath it, as has been said above. Anything else is just an exploit. Even if you did it once, in order for it to take falling damage it has to hit the ground, and if it takes that damage they'll be prone - hitting them again can't knock them back into the air (away from you would be down through the ground, which would cause them to slide away from you).
If you want to allow it at your table, be my guest, but I don't know of anyone that would allow it.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Well with the [feat]Crusher[/feat] feat you can legally move them up. But it's only 5 feet so they won't take damage coming down.
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