RAW, firearms aren't saving throw weapons. You make attack rolls just like any other weapon. But whether it's an attack roll or a saving throw is moot. Regardless of the dragon's AC, regardless of the save DC, I'm going to give you the full benefit of the doubt and say that the attacker only hits on a Natural 20 and/or the dragon only fails their Dex save on a Natural 1. The math is the same either way.
Fifty people, each wielding an M-60, open fire on a dragon from 500 meters away. It will take the dragon 18 rounds to either get out of the weapons' range or get close enough to counterattack. Each M-60 fires 60 times per round. 50 attackers x 60 shots per round x 18 rounds = 54,000 shots before the dragon even has a chance to respond. Now let's say that ONLY a Nat 20 attack or a Nat 1 save results in a hit, that's still 2700 hits. Each hit does 2d10 damage. That means the dragon will taking 1650 hit points of damage PER ROUND for 18 consecutive rounds before even being able to fight back.
And that doesn't even take into account the AMRAAM missile that is moving toward the dragon at 3000 miles per hour from a plane 20 miles away. What's the damage dice for 44 pounds of high explosives?
I would also like to point out that you criticized me for citing, "a completely different source material" when I mentioned the movie Reign of Fire. And you followed that up by citing non-canon info from some random dude's blog post from 23 years ago (which, coincidentally, was the same year that Reign of Fire came out).
Seriously though, it was a great movie. I highly recommend that you watch it . . . if you still have a VCR laying around, that is.
So are you assuming an assault rifle does 2d10 piercing on a single bullet? Because the actual stat of a assault rifle is “A weapon that has the burst fire property can make a normal single-target attack, or it can spray a 10-foot-cube area within normal range with shots. Each creature in the area must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or take the weapon's normal damage. This action uses ten pieces of ammunition." 2d8 per normal damage, let’s also say their to hit is +5 (16 dex and +2 proficiency), only 20 out of 50 would hit, still impressive, but that’s only a total of 180 piercing damage IF the dragon is being attacked without disadvantage. With the burst attack, an additional 3 would miss due to legendary resistance. Also note that the assault rifle has a effective range of 80/240, this is the dnd conversion, seeing that it exists in the same game version as an average Adult Red Dragon, I would takes its statblock as more definitive. With its legendary actions a Red dragon could move 140 feet in 6 seconds, meaning in at the very least 2 rounds the dragon would be out of range if they were right next to the men. What you assumed would mean that your guys could use the attack action 60 times, and considering a fighter can make at most 8 attacks with action surge, not likely.
But that’s not even considering cover nor how the hell 50 men managed to get in range of a dragon, but yea they would be enough to scare one away, if their not bundled up through. Also the missiles would be at best at meteor swarm levels of damage, so survivable for a dragon.
“citing non-canon info” no, he is canon, he’s been mentioned through multiple dnd sources, the only reason I’m bringing up the blog is because thats the only statblock of him that still exists. Not to mention Reign of Fire is not in the DND canon, so information from it can be disregarded on how the dragons would otherwise act or go against Europe.
Even if he was cannon, that was pre-3.5e.
I see no reason why he isn’t usable, it only specified Faerun, not pre 5e content nor characters.
I see. Too bad the dragon plague from 2.7e will instant kill all of the dragons. (proof of existence: this post)
Hey folks, something just occurred to me. OP specified in the first post that this fight includes all the dragons of Faerun, but that the fight does not take place in Faerun. OP specifically said, "Every dragon on Faerun (the average with 2024 rules, Fizban if Greatwyrm) has been sent to modern Europe."
The fight takes place here, in this world, in actual real life modern day Europe, NOT in the land of D&D.
So there's one detail that seems to have been overlooked so far . . .
not to mention nukes are a lot more noticeable than dragons
????????? Nukes are about the same size as a dragon and like 100x faster than a dragon and can have anti-radar coating / plating. Dragons are giant, slow moving, lizards, most of them have terrible DEX scores for a reason.
You just said nukes are the same size as a dragon, most dragons have mediocre to decent dex scores actually, very few nukes are low flying and capable of flying around buildings, I feel like they would be very hearable as they fly towards a city. Not to mention I don’t see nukes moving like a bird and hiding inside forests, that’s a metal gear.
I see. Too bad the dragon plague from 2.7e will instant kill all of the dragons. (proof of existence: this post)
Plague of dragons (real thing in lore) ends mankind then, simple as, seeing you decided to bring in a disease that conveniently kills all dragons, you are a very good waste of time after all.
A. you don’t have a source to the totally real edition.
B. The disease is not a dragon. So mankind loses because of -0.1e and Io or something, yea sure let’s go with that.
You don't hear a nuke coming, for the same reason you won't hear a bullet or a missile coming, because they travel faster than the speed of sound.
Ah yes, jets, the most silent plane in existence, because they outrun the speed of sound and logic, not like you can hear the sound after the plane moves away.
Yes. Exactly. When a supersonic jet flies past you, you won't hear the sound until after it passes. That's what "supersonic" means. It flies faster than sound.
What part of "the speed of sound" do you not understand?
I am starting to question whether you are in fact debating in good faith.
It seems we have miscommunicated, what I implied was that people would hear the sound AFTER the plane passes, with it being loud as hell. Not that they cannot go faster than sound. So technically you would hear the nuke coming, it’s just after it passes by you, which is still enough to react, depending on how far you are from the target.
It doesn’t help that some of you guys somehow decided to pull random sources about drgaons that’s not DND, so my argument is about as good faith as everyone else's, well except for Jurmondur (I have yet to pull out a insta win card from nowhere, Inferno is still a threat Europe can deal with, it’s just hard).
No. You don't hear a nuke coming, because it travels faster than the speed of sound. And you don't hear the nuke "go past you" because it doesn't go past the target. The device gets detonated above the target, anywhere from 100 feet to 1900 feet above. A ball of plasma hotter than the Sun fills a 300 meter diameter in less than one tenth of a second. It will instantly vaporize steel. A blast wave hot enough to melt lead will travel faster than the speed of sound out to a radius of a kilometer, depending on the yield of the device. Buildings will be leveled kilometers away just from the shock wave. Every creature within 5 kilometers will suffer 2nd and 3rd degree burns over 90% of their bodies before they ever even hear the explosion. Those who aren't vaporized or catastrophically burned will suffocate because every molecule of oxygen within a kilometer that wasn't ignited by the blast will be pulled into the mushroom cloud by the receding shock wave.
This isn't something you can dodge. There is no Dex save. There is no resistance to this damage. You don't get a reaction. The only thing you get is a blank character sheet.
No. You don't hear a nuke coming, because it travels faster than the speed of sound. And you don't hear the nuke "go past you" because it doesn't go past the target. The device gets detonated above the target, anywhere from 100 feet to 1900 feet above. A ball of plasma hotter than the Sun fills a 300 meter diameter in less than one tenth of a second. It will instantly vaporize steel. A blast wave hot enough to melt lead will travel faster than the speed of sound out to a radius of a kilometer, depending on the yield of the device. Buildings will be leveled kilometers away just from the shock wave. Every creature within 5 kilometers will suffer 2nd and 3rd degree burns over 90% of their bodies before they ever even hear the explosion. Those who aren't vaporized or catastrophically burned will suffocate because every molecule of oxygen within a kilometer that wasn't ignited by the blast will be pulled into the mushroom cloud by the receding shock wave.
This isn't something you can dodge. There is no Dex save. There is no resistance to this damage. You don't get a reaction. The only thing you get is a blank character sheet.
(When I say hear, I mean the bomb, not the explosion) Nah the Rogue survives, if you can roll a dex save for a meteor swarm on your face, while your flat on the ground, chained up and with all your limbs chopped off, a rogue could survive it somehow, don’t ask.
Also if the dragon has a invulnerability spell (unlikely), they would make it.
A moon-sized monster's bite would deal 24d10 damage, remember, a Planatar managed to carry an entire city from Avernes in the module under certain circumstances, which along with how vague hp could get, means for all you know, a dragon could dodge a nuke point blast and die from a moderately big rock to the head, because the dragon was at 1 HP.
If you think you can survive a direct nuclear blast with a Dex save, you're clearly not debating in good faith. I'm going to unsub from this thread. No further response is warranted or welcomed. Thank you.
Last year, BAE Systems Bofors unveiled its newest version of the 40mm autocannon, the Tridon Mk 2. It has a range of 12,500 meters and fires 300 rounds per minute. Each round is armor-piercing and designed to shoot down aircraft and combat drones. Now, D&D doesn't have stats for anything really comparable to that, but based on the limited modern weapon stats that are in the game so it's hard to say what the damage value is, the answer is "a lot."
Dragons can (eventually) be killed by daggers. Dragons in D&D are routinely killed by adventurers- they are not "too smart" for that. They are absolutely not too smart to be killed by modern weaponry. Anything that can die to Medieval weaponry dies to modern military weaponry, only a lot faster and over a much wider radius.
If you think you can survive a direct nuclear blast with a Dex save, you're clearly not debating in good faith. I'm going to unsub from this thread. No further response is warranted or welcomed. Thank you.
Says the man from the same team that has 50 random men with assault rifles that somehow hit with perfect accuracy with no terrain nor environment, while the dragon conveniently is of a type that cannot dig.
Last year, BAE Systems Bofors unveiled its newest version of the 40mm autocannon, the Tridon Mk 2. It has a range of 12,500 meters and fires 300 rounds per minute. Each round is armor-piercing and designed to shoot down aircraft and combat drones. Now, D&D doesn't have stats for anything really comparable to that, but based on the limited modern weapon stats that are in the game, the answer is "a lot."
Dragons can (eventually) be killed by daggers. Dragons in D&D are routinely killed by adventurers- they are not "too smart" for that. They are absolutely not too smart to be killed by modern weaponry. Anything that can die to Medieval weaponry dies to modern military weaponry, only a lot faster and over a much wider radius.
I didn’t say dragons can’t die from modern weaponry it’s just you underestimate how stupid dragons can get lore wise, dropping mountains on people do somehow as much damage as a being in lava for 6 seconds.
I was perfectly content with talking about different flaws of both sides but I honestly enjoy being screamed at because grown men are shocked that magic that does magic things counters a nuclear blast via one of 5 ways.
You're all acting like I’m using a Godzilla from Hell level argument when very canon dragons that are still alive timeline wise are screwing with people like dragons with magic would.
I see. Too bad the dragon plague from 2.7e will instant kill all of the dragons. (proof of existence: this post)
A. you don’t have a source to the totally real edition.
Sorry, you have a very legitimate source of a post online from 2003 that for some reason has to spell out all of the lore and stats for this creature, despite the creature definitely being in a sourcebook for 3e before it was covered up by a government conspiracy. /s
(When I say hear, I mean the bomb, not the explosion) Nah the Rogue survives, if you can roll a dex save for a meteor swarm on your face, while your flat on the ground, chained up and with all your limbs chopped off, a rogue could survive it somehow, don’t ask.
Also if the dragon has a invulnerability spell (unlikely), they would make it.
A moon-sized monster's bite would deal 24d10 damage, remember, a Planatar managed to carry an entire city from Avernes in the module under certain circumstances, which along with how vague hp could get, means for all you know, a dragon could dodge a nuke point blast and die from a moderately big rock to the head, because the dragon was at 1 HP.
I would say that your basic argument doesn't match the premise - the question is if dragons got transported to our world, and not the other way around. Applying DND combat logic doesn't make sense in our world because combat is pretty abstracted from how things work irl.
There wouldn't be Dex saves, there wouldn't be AC or "to-hit". Though this is pretty much exactly what will happen anytime you try to compare something from fantasy to something from real life. There aren't hard facts to support the fantasy's claims, so a lot of the combat on their side gets handwaved when it shouldn't.
I don't think it's fair to say that you're getting 'screamed at' when every other poster is giving you reason after reason for dragons losing this hypothetical, and you're the only person arguing the opposite way. At some point it stops being a debate and starts being an exercise in stubbornness.
Europe no-diffs dragons easily, for the plethora of reasons already stated.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Intelligence doesn't matter. You could instantly transport the smartest person who ever lived in Ancient Rome and put them in a modern kitchen and they would be immediately baffled. Because knowledge is separate from intelligence, and any person from the far past has no knowledge of what exists or how things work in the modern world. A dragon could have infinite IQ, but if they are from a world where remote controlled high-stratosphere drones and satellites don't exist they aren't suddenly going to know that they do exist when transported to a new world. Just as even the most intelligent person in our world transported to a hypothetical D&D reality wouldn't have a clue how to cast spells or how magic works or what a Aboleth is or where they live or how to kill one. I mean, we've even done the experiment in this world, totalitarian governments have taken super-smart university students and academics and put them in charge of a farm after kicking the farmers off of it, and it rapidly lead to massive famines... twice. Intelligence alone doesn't make you competent at anything.
You just said nukes are the same size as a dragon, most dragons have mediocre to decent dex scores actually, very few nukes are low flying and capable of flying around buildings, I feel like they would be very hearable as they fly towards a city. Not to mention I don’t see nukes moving like a bird and hiding inside forests, that’s a metal gear.
Make up your mind. Are the dragons hiding and cowering in forests? Or are they attacking cities? Low flying makes them easier to detect not harder, because they are closer to all the ground-based sensors we have all over the place, and they'll show up easily because their brightly coloured scales will be easily visible contrasted against the muted greens/blues/browns of the ground.
Dragons are bigger than Elephants, they cannot effectively hide / fly in a forest. Most geese can't even fly effectively in a forest and they are many times smaller. Perching in a forest is likewise impossible they would knock over any tree they land on. Just have a look at birds that live in forests vs over the open sea.. forest-dwelling birds have much shorter stubbier wings because long wings + dense trees = big ouchie. You can try it yourself, just go out to a forest and hold your arms out straight horizontal to the ground and try to run through the woods. And remember your arms are 4x shorter than a dragon's wings would be.
Nukes are not hearable at all because they are super-sonic, they move faster than the speed of sound which means the sound they produce doesn't get to you until after you've been hit by them. Hence remote sensing systems do not rely on sound.
Teleport, invisibility and illusions would counter it
LOL that's hilarious! You really have no understanding of anything do you? A bat can see through invisibility and illusions with no problem, are you seriously arguing that modern sensor systems wouldn't be able to see through them? Invisibility and illusions exclusively act in the visible spectrum of EMR, it would have 0 effect on radar, sonor, thermal imaging, or a dozen other sensor types.
Most of their teleports are incredibly limited in range and usage - 5 miles is nothing (many sensor systems cover 300+miles), 1/day is nothing there are tens of thousands of people dedicating their entire careers to surveillance, come on! You gotta do better than this.
I see. Too bad the dragon plague from 2.7e will instant kill all of the dragons. (proof of existence: this post)
Hey folks, something just occurred to me. OP specified in the first post that this fight includes all the dragons of Faerun, but that the fight does not take place in Faerun. OP specifically said, "Every dragon on Faerun (the average with 2024 rules, Fizban if Greatwyrm) has been sent to modern Europe."
The fight takes place here, in this world, in actual real life modern day Europe, NOT in the land of D&D.
So there's one detail that seems to have been overlooked so far . . .
Our world doesn't have magic.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
You just said nukes are the same size as a dragon, most dragons have mediocre to decent dex scores actually, very few nukes are low flying and capable of flying around buildings, I feel like they would be very hearable as they fly towards a city. Not to mention I don’t see nukes moving like a bird and hiding inside forests, that’s a metal gear.
You don't hear a nuke coming, for the same reason you won't hear a bullet or a missile coming, because they travel faster than the speed of sound.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Plague of dragons (real thing in lore) ends mankind then, simple as, seeing you decided to bring in a disease that conveniently kills all dragons, you are a very good waste of time after all.
A. you don’t have a source to the totally real edition.
B. The disease is not a dragon. So mankind loses because of -0.1e and Io or something, yea sure let’s go with that.
Ah yes, jets, the most silent plane in existence, because they outrun the speed of sound and logic, not like you can hear the sound after the plane moves away.
Yes. Exactly. When a supersonic jet flies past you, you won't hear the sound until after it passes. That's what "supersonic" means. It flies faster than sound.
What part of "the speed of sound" do you not understand?
I am starting to question whether you are in fact debating in good faith.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
It seems we have miscommunicated, what I implied was that people would hear the sound AFTER the plane passes, with it being loud as hell. Not that they cannot go faster than sound. So technically you would hear the nuke coming, it’s just after it passes by you, which is still enough to react, depending on how far you are from the target.
It doesn’t help that some of you guys somehow decided to pull random sources about drgaons that’s not DND, so my argument is about as good faith as everyone else's, well except for Jurmondur (I have yet to pull out a insta win card from nowhere, Inferno is still a threat Europe can deal with, it’s just hard).
No. You don't hear a nuke coming, because it travels faster than the speed of sound. And you don't hear the nuke "go past you" because it doesn't go past the target. The device gets detonated above the target, anywhere from 100 feet to 1900 feet above. A ball of plasma hotter than the Sun fills a 300 meter diameter in less than one tenth of a second. It will instantly vaporize steel. A blast wave hot enough to melt lead will travel faster than the speed of sound out to a radius of a kilometer, depending on the yield of the device. Buildings will be leveled kilometers away just from the shock wave. Every creature within 5 kilometers will suffer 2nd and 3rd degree burns over 90% of their bodies before they ever even hear the explosion. Those who aren't vaporized or catastrophically burned will suffocate because every molecule of oxygen within a kilometer that wasn't ignited by the blast will be pulled into the mushroom cloud by the receding shock wave.
This isn't something you can dodge. There is no Dex save. There is no resistance to this damage. You don't get a reaction. The only thing you get is a blank character sheet.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
(When I say hear, I mean the bomb, not the explosion) Nah the Rogue survives, if you can roll a dex save for a meteor swarm on your face, while your flat on the ground, chained up and with all your limbs chopped off, a rogue could survive it somehow, don’t ask.
Also if the dragon has a invulnerability spell (unlikely), they would make it.
A moon-sized monster's bite would deal 24d10 damage, remember, a Planatar managed to carry an entire city from Avernes in the module under certain circumstances, which along with how vague hp could get, means for all you know, a dragon could dodge a nuke point blast and die from a moderately big rock to the head, because the dragon was at 1 HP.
Okay. I'm done.
If you think you can survive a direct nuclear blast with a Dex save, you're clearly not debating in good faith. I'm going to unsub from this thread. No further response is warranted or welcomed. Thank you.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Last year, BAE Systems Bofors unveiled its newest version of the 40mm autocannon, the Tridon Mk 2. It has a range of 12,500 meters and fires 300 rounds per minute. Each round is armor-piercing and designed to shoot down aircraft and combat drones. Now, D&D doesn't have stats for anything really comparable to that, but based on the limited modern weapon stats that are in the game so it's hard to say what the damage value is, the answer is "a lot."
Dragons can (eventually) be killed by daggers. Dragons in D&D are routinely killed by adventurers- they are not "too smart" for that. They are absolutely not too smart to be killed by modern weaponry. Anything that can die to Medieval weaponry dies to modern military weaponry, only a lot faster and over a much wider radius.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Says the man from the same team that has 50 random men with assault rifles that somehow hit with perfect accuracy with no terrain nor environment, while the dragon conveniently is of a type that cannot dig.
I didn’t say dragons can’t die from modern weaponry it’s just you underestimate how stupid dragons can get lore wise, dropping mountains on people do somehow as much damage as a being in lava for 6 seconds.
I was perfectly content with talking about different flaws of both sides but I honestly enjoy being screamed at because grown men are shocked that magic that does magic things counters a nuclear blast via one of 5 ways.
You're all acting like I’m using a Godzilla from Hell level argument when very canon dragons that are still alive timeline wise are screwing with people like dragons with magic would.
Sorry, you have a very legitimate source of a post online from 2003 that for some reason has to spell out all of the lore and stats for this creature, despite the creature definitely being in a sourcebook for 3e before it was covered up by a government conspiracy. /s
I would say that your basic argument doesn't match the premise - the question is if dragons got transported to our world, and not the other way around. Applying DND combat logic doesn't make sense in our world because combat is pretty abstracted from how things work irl.
There wouldn't be Dex saves, there wouldn't be AC or "to-hit". Though this is pretty much exactly what will happen anytime you try to compare something from fantasy to something from real life. There aren't hard facts to support the fantasy's claims, so a lot of the combat on their side gets handwaved when it shouldn't.
I don't think it's fair to say that you're getting 'screamed at' when every other poster is giving you reason after reason for dragons losing this hypothetical, and you're the only person arguing the opposite way. At some point it stops being a debate and starts being an exercise in stubbornness.
Europe no-diffs dragons easily, for the plethora of reasons already stated.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Intelligence doesn't matter. You could instantly transport the smartest person who ever lived in Ancient Rome and put them in a modern kitchen and they would be immediately baffled. Because knowledge is separate from intelligence, and any person from the far past has no knowledge of what exists or how things work in the modern world. A dragon could have infinite IQ, but if they are from a world where remote controlled high-stratosphere drones and satellites don't exist they aren't suddenly going to know that they do exist when transported to a new world. Just as even the most intelligent person in our world transported to a hypothetical D&D reality wouldn't have a clue how to cast spells or how magic works or what a Aboleth is or where they live or how to kill one. I mean, we've even done the experiment in this world, totalitarian governments have taken super-smart university students and academics and put them in charge of a farm after kicking the farmers off of it, and it rapidly lead to massive famines... twice. Intelligence alone doesn't make you competent at anything.
Make up your mind. Are the dragons hiding and cowering in forests? Or are they attacking cities? Low flying makes them easier to detect not harder, because they are closer to all the ground-based sensors we have all over the place, and they'll show up easily because their brightly coloured scales will be easily visible contrasted against the muted greens/blues/browns of the ground.
Dragons are bigger than Elephants, they cannot effectively hide / fly in a forest. Most geese can't even fly effectively in a forest and they are many times smaller. Perching in a forest is likewise impossible they would knock over any tree they land on. Just have a look at birds that live in forests vs over the open sea.. forest-dwelling birds have much shorter stubbier wings because long wings + dense trees = big ouchie. You can try it yourself, just go out to a forest and hold your arms out straight horizontal to the ground and try to run through the woods. And remember your arms are 4x shorter than a dragon's wings would be.
Nukes are not hearable at all because they are super-sonic, they move faster than the speed of sound which means the sound they produce doesn't get to you until after you've been hit by them. Hence remote sensing systems do not rely on sound.
LOL that's hilarious! You really have no understanding of anything do you? A bat can see through invisibility and illusions with no problem, are you seriously arguing that modern sensor systems wouldn't be able to see through them? Invisibility and illusions exclusively act in the visible spectrum of EMR, it would have 0 effect on radar, sonor, thermal imaging, or a dozen other sensor types.
Most of their teleports are incredibly limited in range and usage - 5 miles is nothing (many sensor systems cover 300+miles), 1/day is nothing there are tens of thousands of people dedicating their entire careers to surveillance, come on! You gotta do better than this.