My brother played a fight with cultists and 2 flying snakes, by the book it was fair, but flying snakes would be Cr 1/2 monsters if built from DM's guide rules. Plus, he wasn't even using flyby.
what about the increase to Effective AC from flying? That makes the effective AC 16 which triggers a Defensive CR boost to CR 1/8. this leads to a average of 1/2.
what about the increase to Effective AC from flying? That makes the effective AC 16 which triggers a Defensive CR boost to CR 1/8. this leads to a average of 1/2.
I didn't know about that.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I am not sure if they were in a published module or our DM came up with the idea for them from somewhere deep within his sick/demented mind, (it was many, many years ago), but we played a module where all the goblins (or maybe it was kobolds...I don't even recall now) each had a necklace which was a "Necklace of Fireballs" with a single bead on them.
There was a chance if you hit them it they would detonate, and of course if one went off, all the nearby ones would go off as well. If I recall, we were a relatively mid to high level party at the time, and we starting fleeing every time we saw one of the critters unless we could kill it via ranged effects. Was very scary...(fun!). To this day, we always do perception checks to see if enemies are wearing necklaces.
This was a particular situation I was DM'ing and it got kind of tricky. 2 goblins and a wolf on either side of the road with a felled tree to stop the traffic.
The goblins fire and hide. What are the PC options? Run into the woods and swing at unseen enemies? There's a section for that in the PHB. It's basically a roll at disadvantage. Is that the game mechanic?
I had them doing perception rolls from the wagon trying to zone in on them. Once one was spotted I'd put it's figurine on the map and it would be decimated by Magic Missiles and arrows, (and one really fast Rogue using Dash as an action plus his Cunning Action to Dash _again_). But they had to take about 2 arrows on average while "scanning the trees" for the goblin.
Some tips on how to referee such a situation would be helpful. Goblins firing from the woods with their ability to bonus hide seem rather nasty.
So you would suggest readied actions? "When i see a goblin I attack." Doesn't that negate their hide ability pretty much?
This seems like a pretty common scenario to trip me up so much.
1st. To stay hidden, the goblins still have to keep out of line of sight. So for example, if the only cover was the log, as soon as the players got to the other side of the log, they can see the goblins. If the players want to shoot into the area blindly, they have to shoot at disadvantage, and pick a square they THINK the badguy will be in. Ideally, after they pick a square, they still attack at disadvantage so they don't auto know they picked wrong.
2nd. Yes, you can ready actions to deal with hidden foes appearing and disappearing. It has its own drawbacks for doing so (you only get multi-attack on your turn, you lose the chance to use reaction for other things)
Anyone remember the old AD&D Monster Manuals that listed not only small encounters, but civilized encounters? Humans may be 50-500, elves 40-100, dwarves 60-200 (random numbers, but it's that idea). Monsters got this too for their settlements and/or lairs. Orcs, gnolls, kobolds, and of course goblins. Typical goblin encounter? Maybe 4-10. Civilized/lair goblin encounter? Maybe 80-150 and likely subterranean with extra nastiness like traps, domesticated wolves/worgs, or other friendly critters. Did I just give you a small stroke?
The only saving factor was that there weren't different types of critters, just bigger or better equipped. Out of the whole mountain of 200+ goblins, maybe 30 could stand a good fight in melee because they were higher level or had good armor. Everyone else was almost a 1-shot skirmisher.
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
Anyone remember the old AD&D Monster Manuals that listed not only small encounters, but civilized encounters? Humans may be 50-500, elves 40-100, dwarves 60-200 (random numbers, but it's that idea). Monsters got this too for their settlements and/or lairs. Orcs, gnolls, kobolds, and of course goblins. Typical goblin encounter? Maybe 4-10. Civilized/lair goblin encounter? Maybe 80-150 and likely subterranean with extra nastiness like traps, domesticated wolves/worgs, or other friendly critters. Did I just give you a small stroke?
The only saving factor was that there weren't different types of critters, just bigger or better equipped. Out of the whole mountain of 200+ goblins, maybe 30 could stand a good fight in melee because they were higher level or had good armor. Everyone else was almost a 1-shot skirmisher.
Well, now I know what I want the next book to be.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Between this and a related thread on dragon tactics, I really want to start a campaign with lvl 10s. I'll see if I can take them out with nothing higher than CR 2 mobs and if they survive the zerg-rush of minions, here comes a Dragon or some other big beastie that led the team into a trap.
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Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
Between this and a related thread on dragon tactics, I really want to start a campaign with lvl 10s. I'll see if I can take them out with nothing higher than CR 2 mobs and if they survive the zerg-rush of minions, here comes a Dragon or some other big beastie that led the team into a trap.
I'd play in that.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
If you have a small creature with high Dex (16) and at least average Con and Int, as well as multiple Hit Dice (2d6(7)), and you give it Pack Tactics, Nimble Escape, Fighting Styles (Archery and Close-Quarters Shooting), put it in studded leather, give it a shortbow, and coat the arrows in giant poisonous snake venom, it's CR 4! If you put the PCs in a small tunnel with very thin walls, have these creatures shooting through arrow slits 5' from the party, have them have the tunnel over the PCs' heads rigged to fall down if the walls are removed and, of course, have a portcullis slam down behind the PCs, trapping them inside. . .
In my world, those are Greater Kobolds; they have their own culture and their own language, and some of the best works of military strategy are written in Kobold.
If you have a small creature with high Dex (16) and at least average Con and Int, as well as multiple Hit Dice (2d6(7)), and you give it Pack Tactics, Nimble Escape, Fighting Styles (Archery and Close-Quarters Shooting), put it in studded leather, give it a shortbow, and coat the arrows in giant poisonous snake venom, it's CR 4! If you put the PCs in a small tunnel with very thin walls, have these creatures shooting through arrow slits 5' from the party, have them have the tunnel over the PCs' heads rigged to fall down if the walls are removed and, of course, have a portcullis slam down behind the PCs, trapping them inside. . .
In my world, those are Greater Kobolds; they have their own culture and their own language, and some of the best works of military strategy are written in Kobold.
It also sounds like the old Dragon Mountain boxed set adventure.
And a lot fun.
Much agreed Aaron ... I'd rather deal with Tucker's Kobolds than plain vanilla Kobolds because it means I'm glued to the tactical situations of the game ... and that equals FUN in my book!
Edit - Ever play the old Dragon Magazine adventure Tallow's Deep? That's one tough Goblin Warren! Loads of fun!!
As a new DM, (like, really new) this is making me rethink the starter kit adventure I'm running. I've not been playing the goblins to their full potential, allowing them to basically be dumb fodder for the party. Hide as a bonus action is definitely something I'm going to use. The party is currently working through some of the side-quests in the campaign, and I'm thinking a goblin ambush on the wooded trail is in their immediate future! Thanks for calling attention to the potential of goblins, OP!
I'm running the starter adventure as well. The goblin's likely would have been very tough if there wasn't a goblin in the party who found them first :)
So. I apologize for Necromancing this thread but I wanted to add something.
I've been reading about Vietnam and the Tunnel Rats... And it's crazy.
It made me realize, why do Goblins live in large 5'x5' or 5'x10' tunnels that a medium creature can stand in?
Why construct tunnels mediums don't have to squeeze in? There can be blind corners, bolt holes, etc.
The Viet Con even put venomous snakes and scorpions in drop down traps and punji pits.
They had drain tunnels for water and poison gas.
Reading about the horrible things people did to people in war... Goblins could be an insane difficult menace. Sure you'll win any stand up fight, but that's rarely going to happen.
There could be miles of unknown goblin tunnels outside the city... Miles of tunnels.
Goblins are typically associated as invasive/invading species, so they would ceetainly take over pre-made tunnels out of convenience.
However, go way back to AD&D and you'll find some DMG rules for construction, tunneling, and seigecraft. It lists humans as standard for tunneling rate (feet per hour/day). Other races could be conscripted/hired and had different rates. Dwarves were among the best with gnomes as a close second. Giants were by far the best, but could only constrict "large" tunnels. Goblins fell in as a faster, yet unreliable, workforce that could mine about 30% faster than humans. They have the potential to dig tunnel systems, but the purpose is typically very specific (i.e. Ambush/escape tunnels).
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Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
As far as I'm concerned, goblins are basically just evil halfling rogues. Thinking and acting like I imagine a troupe of halflings to act is how I set the basis for how goblins act.
I am not sure if they were in a published module or our DM came up with the idea for them from somewhere deep within his sick/demented mind, (it was many, many years ago), but we played a module where all the goblins (or maybe it was kobolds...I don't even recall now) each had a necklace which was a "Necklace of Fireballs" with a single bead on them.
There was a chance if you hit them it they would detonate, and of course if one went off, all the nearby ones would go off as well. If I recall, we were a relatively mid to high level party at the time, and we starting fleeing every time we saw one of the critters unless we could kill it via ranged effects. Was very scary...(fun!). To this day, we always do perception checks to see if enemies are wearing necklaces.
Prinny dood?
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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what about the increase to Effective AC from flying? That makes the effective AC 16 which triggers a Defensive CR boost to CR 1/8. this leads to a average of 1/2.
Post under the same name at Giant in the Playground, and rarely here.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
I am not sure if they were in a published module or our DM came up with the idea for them from somewhere deep within his sick/demented mind, (it was many, many years ago), but we played a module where all the goblins (or maybe it was kobolds...I don't even recall now) each had a necklace which was a "Necklace of Fireballs" with a single bead on them.
There was a chance if you hit them it they would detonate, and of course if one went off, all the nearby ones would go off as well. If I recall, we were a relatively mid to high level party at the time, and we starting fleeing every time we saw one of the critters unless we could kill it via ranged effects. Was very scary...(fun!). To this day, we always do perception checks to see if enemies are wearing necklaces.
This was a particular situation I was DM'ing and it got kind of tricky. 2 goblins and a wolf on either side of the road with a felled tree to stop the traffic.
The goblins fire and hide. What are the PC options? Run into the woods and swing at unseen enemies? There's a section for that in the PHB. It's basically a roll at disadvantage. Is that the game mechanic?
I had them doing perception rolls from the wagon trying to zone in on them. Once one was spotted I'd put it's figurine on the map and it would be decimated by Magic Missiles and arrows, (and one really fast Rogue using Dash as an action plus his Cunning Action to Dash _again_). But they had to take about 2 arrows on average while "scanning the trees" for the goblin.
Some tips on how to referee such a situation would be helpful. Goblins firing from the woods with their ability to bonus hide seem rather nasty.
So you would suggest readied actions? "When i see a goblin I attack." Doesn't that negate their hide ability pretty much?
This seems like a pretty common scenario to trip me up so much.
1st. To stay hidden, the goblins still have to keep out of line of sight. So for example, if the only cover was the log, as soon as the players got to the other side of the log, they can see the goblins. If the players want to shoot into the area blindly, they have to shoot at disadvantage, and pick a square they THINK the badguy will be in. Ideally, after they pick a square, they still attack at disadvantage so they don't auto know they picked wrong.
2nd. Yes, you can ready actions to deal with hidden foes appearing and disappearing. It has its own drawbacks for doing so (you only get multi-attack on your turn, you lose the chance to use reaction for other things)
Anyone remember the old AD&D Monster Manuals that listed not only small encounters, but civilized encounters? Humans may be 50-500, elves 40-100, dwarves 60-200 (random numbers, but it's that idea). Monsters got this too for their settlements and/or lairs. Orcs, gnolls, kobolds, and of course goblins. Typical goblin encounter? Maybe 4-10. Civilized/lair goblin encounter? Maybe 80-150 and likely subterranean with extra nastiness like traps, domesticated wolves/worgs, or other friendly critters. Did I just give you a small stroke?
The only saving factor was that there weren't different types of critters, just bigger or better equipped. Out of the whole mountain of 200+ goblins, maybe 30 could stand a good fight in melee because they were higher level or had good armor. Everyone else was almost a 1-shot skirmisher.
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Between this and a related thread on dragon tactics, I really want to start a campaign with lvl 10s. I'll see if I can take them out with nothing higher than CR 2 mobs and if they survive the zerg-rush of minions, here comes a Dragon or some other big beastie that led the team into a trap.
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
The Forum Infestation (TM)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
So. I apologize for Necromancing this thread but I wanted to add something.
I've been reading about Vietnam and the Tunnel Rats... And it's crazy.
It made me realize, why do Goblins live in large 5'x5' or 5'x10' tunnels that a medium creature can stand in?
Why construct tunnels mediums don't have to squeeze in? There can be blind corners, bolt holes, etc.
The Viet Con even put venomous snakes and scorpions in drop down traps and punji pits.
They had drain tunnels for water and poison gas.
Reading about the horrible things people did to people in war... Goblins could be an insane difficult menace. Sure you'll win any stand up fight, but that's rarely going to happen.
There could be miles of unknown goblin tunnels outside the city... Miles of tunnels.
Because Goblins aren't Dwarves. They don't mine the tunnels, they are rats and infest the existing tunnels... probably made by 'mediums.'
That's my thought.
Goblins are typically associated as invasive/invading species, so they would ceetainly take over pre-made tunnels out of convenience.
However, go way back to AD&D and you'll find some DMG rules for construction, tunneling, and seigecraft. It lists humans as standard for tunneling rate (feet per hour/day). Other races could be conscripted/hired and had different rates. Dwarves were among the best with gnomes as a close second. Giants were by far the best, but could only constrict "large" tunnels. Goblins fell in as a faster, yet unreliable, workforce that could mine about 30% faster than humans. They have the potential to dig tunnel systems, but the purpose is typically very specific (i.e. Ambush/escape tunnels).
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
As far as I'm concerned, goblins are basically just evil halfling rogues. Thinking and acting like I imagine a troupe of halflings to act is how I set the basis for how goblins act.