I was planning out the levels for my new character and was thinking about going for a build based off of the spell armor of agathys I selected Levistus Tiefling and am starting at 3rd level. The rest of the party consists of ranged attackers and support characters.
My thought was to start with Barbarian 1/Warlock (hexblade) 2 for two castings of first level armor of agathys and one casting of the second level version. this gives me 20 THP and puts my effective health at 51, compared to the 35 I'd have as a straight barbarian. I was planning on building up to level 5 in warlock before building up to five in barbarian and then putting the rest into warlock, using both the ancestral guardians and hexblade subclasses
For invocations, I was planning on picking up the cloak of flies for the extra CHA damage every round and maddening hex (for the hexblade curse) to do it again plus Thirsting blade for two attacks so that at level 8 with GWM I can deal (average if both attacks hit and I get hit once) 67 points of damage, or 81 if I get hit twice. also having an effective HP pool of 115 compared to the 85 of a strait barbarian as well as recovering 30 of them every short rest.
this seems like a solid combo to me but in other forums, everyone says that Warbarians are bad and I can't figure out why
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
Good point Thirsting blade wouldn't be necessary after five levels of Barbarian, and I didn't take more than two attacks into account in the Damage Calculation. I'll probably swap it out for something else, good catch. armor of agathys does not require concentration and can be cast before raging, and the Hexblade's curse also does not require concentration, I'm not planning on casting any spells post-rage, or concentrating on any of them.
this seems like a solid combo to me but in other forums, everyone says that Warbarians are bad and I can't figure out why
it's all personal preference, opinion, and creativity based.
People say Mastermind Rogues are bad.
People say Beast Tamers are bad.
etc. etc. etc. Not everything is about or needs to be about combat and action economy, if you think it'd be fun or interesting, or would like to roleplay it. Go for it. Doesn't matter what others think.
I can get behind that, but I was thinking that it worked very well in the combat and action economy sense and was hoping that someone could point out why so many people think that it does not. I'm just wondering if I read something wrong or misinterpreted a rule or something.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
I can get behind that, but I was thinking that it worked very well in the combat and action economy sense and was hoping that someone could point out why so many people think that it does not. I'm just wondering if I read something wrong or misinterpreted a rule or something.
from what I can tell...
People aren't thinking about it the way you are and how it is for RAW or RAI.
and thinking. "I can't do any of that while I rage"
where you very eloquently and correctly pointed out, you do them before you rage. and its completely doable.
Mechanically it works fine the way you want to use it, neither over nor under powered. It's just a strange way of going about it to combine classes such that a core feature of the class is largely unusable. Especially since you intend on highly leveling warlock but rarely casting. I would probably only take 3 levels of warlock, but if you are really set on those temporary hitpoints and enjoy roleplaying it, go for it.
I've done the theory crafting of a Barb/Warlock and decided against Armor of Agathys. Instead, I would take Fiendish Vigor and here's why:
Both spells, [Armor of Agathys] and the [False Life] are (V, S, M) meaning we need a free hand to cast. So sword and board are out either way, unless we want to waste an ASI for War Caster. Instead go for Pole Arm Master and use a glaive.
Since I'm only taking 4 levels of Warlock, at best, the [Armor of Agathys] gives us 10 temp HP (cast at 2nd level), but [False Life] gives 8 temp HP so almost no difference.
[Armor of Agathys] is a 1st-level spell, meaning it takes one of only two slots to cast, keeping us from using anything else. But [False Life] is at-will so it can be freely cast/re-upped before every single battle.
We do lose out on the retaliation, but if they are close enough to hit the [Armor of Agathys], they are close enough for us to pound on by walking into our PAM reach for a free attack of 1d10 + STR, balancing the whole thing out.
In the end, it is better action economy to keep using [False Life] rather than worry about if/when we can cast [Armor of Agathys]
Hi Ho! coming back to this forum after trying the multiclass out a little, in both home games and Adventure's league
I'm taking 3 levels of barbarian and the rest in warlock, meaning that the Armor of Agathys would be giving 25 Temp Hp at later levels, compared to the 6.5 generated on average by false life. I picked up polearm master as well so the retaliation isn't being made up for by the extra opportunity attack. I wouldn't want to go sword and board anyways, because of the damage my foes take upon hitting me, spending resources (like an open hand) to make my armor class higher wouldn't make sense. What else would you be using the spell slots for? I found keeping both for the Armor of Agathys works very well (especially since my group tends to take at least a short rest after two large encounters and several minor ones allowing me to armor up before every major fight and Adventure's League games rarely having more than two big fights per session). Why is false life better action economy? We can't cast it while raging and it takes an action just like Armor of Agathys, it even gives less temp HP after you pick up 2nd level slots and beyond, and it takes up a precious invocation slot that could be used for something like Eldrich Smite, or Cloak of Flies. I've decided to drop maddening hex because the PAM gave better bonus action damage without eating up an invocation, and also use totem of the bear barbarian for getting the most retaliation out of my retaliation.
I'm interested as to why you only took 4 levels of warlock and which patron you went with, I haven't tried building with majority Barb levels so there might be something I'm missing there.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
Bunch of questions in there so I'll try breaking it all apart.
Why did I only choose 4 levels of Warlock? Because the whole reason to take Barbarian is to rage. And when you rage, you can't cast spells. So why spend all those levels learning spells you can only cast on your down time?
Why False Life over Agathys? I explained my reasons, but the biggest thing is, since I'm only taking 4 levels of Warlock, I would max out at level 2 spells which means 10 temp hp. False Life is 8 temp hp so there is only a 2 hp difference. But I can cast False Life over and over again an not use up my only 2 spell slots.
Why get Fiendish Vigor instead of Eldritch Smite and Cloak of Flies? Because I'm only taking 4 levels of Warlock and both of those Invocations require 5th level. Sensing a theme?
It sounds like you're only taking Warlock levels to boost Armor of Agathys. Which means you could stop at 9th level Warlock. Maybe go to 10th just to get a patron feature. But that's it. You still only have your original 2 spell slots. However if you go that far you miss out on an ASI, Persistent Rage, 2 more rages per long rest, and your final Path feature.
So in the end I figured I would cut my loses and stop at 4 levels and put my efforts into Barbarian.
As for my choices; I went Zealot Barbarian and Celestial Warlock. Mostly for thematic reasons. A Barbarian that is a fervent believer that becomes a vessel for his deity.
Why did I only choose 4 levels of Warlock? Because the whole reason to take Barbarian is to rage. And when you rage, you can't cast spells. So why spend all those levels learning spells you can only cast on your down time?
I’d be only using the slots to ready armor of Agathys before raging and possibly Eldritch Smiting on Crits. Warlocks have a lot going for them other than spellcasting.
Why False Life over Agathys? I explained my reasons, but the biggest thing is, since I'm only taking 4 levels of Warlock, I would max out at level 2 spells which means 10 temp hp. False Life is 8 temp hp so there is only a 2 hp difference. But I can cast False Life over and over again an not use up my only 2 spell slots.
False life Gives 1d4+4, or 6.5 average THP not 8. Using up the spell slots isn’t a problem, because as you’ve already pointed out, they can’t be used for casting spells while raging.
Why get Fiendish Vigor instead of Eldritch Smite and Cloak of Flies? Because I'm only taking 4 levels of Warlock and both of those Invocations require 5th level. Sensing a theme?
one of the reasons I was planing on going more than 4 levels of warlock. I get that you didn’t.
It sounds like you're only taking Warlock levels to boost Armor of Agathys. Which means you could stop at 9th level Warlock. Maybe go to 10th just to get a patron feature. But that's it. You still only have your original 2 spell slots. However if you go that far you miss out on an ASI, Persistent Rage, 2 more rages per long rest, and your final Path feature.
So one of the cool features I didn’t really talk about is the potential for a pretty decent crit build. Hexblade’s curse lets you crit on a 19 or 20 while the hex warrior feature lets you use CHA instead of STR for attacks (I know I miss out on the +2 rage bonus but stick with me) this lets me use elven accuracy for an almost 30% chance to critically hit. Crit with an Eldritch Smite leads to a 2d10+12d8+21 hit. 14 levels of warlock lets me move my curse around like a hex or hunters mark allowing me to keep up the damage bonuses and the crit chance. At 10th any enemy I curse gets a 50% chance of missing me with attacks that hit, furthering my survivability substantially. Most of what I want from Warlock are the class features, though I am missing out on the Zelot’s late game invincibility. Armor of Agathys is nice though, as it deals a deseptivly high amount of damage.
As for my choices; I went Zealot Barbarian and Celestial Warlock. Mostly for thematic reasons. A Barbarian that is a fervent believer that becomes a vessel for his deity.
I like it.
I ended up going with a woodelf half elf who is sort of a revenant of a dead forest. I went with Totem of the Bear Barbarian and Hexblade Warlock.
I could kind of see this, but at the same time some of the benefits from Barbarian are incompatible with being a Warlock, such as spell casting. I would try this out for the first few sessions and see how you like it, but if I were you I might go for Fighter instead of Barbarian. Fighter doesn't give the same benefits as a Barbarian, but there are fewer restrictions and Action Surge could work pretty well to add extra damage.
I am totally there with you on the benefits of hexing and Armour of Agythys for barbarians. I have been playing a forest gnome bar-bear-ian (druid/barb) grappler in Descent into Avernus which has tons of flying critters and wide open spaces as the adventure progresses. I am now picking up 2 levels of GOO Warlock in order to be able to have some ranged attack options (eldritch blast) before wild shaping and grappling. I can also hex to make my grapple even more effective and gain Devil's Sight (which is always helpful when fighting devils who love their darkness spells). With limited rages per day, it makes sense to have a good plan B for non-rage melee. And frankly, I am ok taking full advantage of my 2 wild shapes per SR. I can cast hex, armour of agythys, and protection from poison before each one using druid spell slots (and my measly warlock slots) and keep on rolling.
I'm joining a new campaign soon with a Barbarian/Warlock combo. Gonna play a Giant Frog riding Kalashtar with some memory loss of his past. Spirit Guardian Barb, Warlock of the Raven Queen. I plan on taking the 1st level in barb then 3 in warlock then sticking with barbarian after that. The Warlock aspect is mostly for RP but provides some utility outside of combat in addition to pre battle buff spells. Our DM uses a "quirk" system to help build flaws and stuff and allowed me to take mounted combatant for some additional flaws. It could've worked with a variant human otherwise. Bottom line is as long as you do some research you can make just about any combination work. You'll always be sacrificing a bit from one side or the other, but it's all in the name of fun.
Dwarven Battlerager Barb/Chain Pact Warlocks are insanely good at tanking damage all day long. If you take the feat Dwarven Fortitude and the Eldritch Invocation Gift of the Ever Living Ones, you can take the dodge action and heal 12+CON multiple times by expending a hit die. The Battlerager also lets you bonus action melee attack even after dodging (while raging), so you're able to keep rage damage resistances active as well. Add in the temp HP granted every time you reckless attack (Battlerager 6th lvl), you're gonna be nearly impossible to put down. At level 9, a 6 Barb/3 Lock could tank about ~500 damage over a long fight. If you manage to find a Periapt of Wound Closure, this doubles your dodge healing, allowing you to tank an absurd ~750 total damage.
this seems like a solid combo to me but in other forums, everyone says that Warbarians are bad and I can't figure out why
One of the disadvantages is the multiple attribute dependancy (MAD) of the multiclass.
As a barbarian you want STR for damage, DEX and CON for health and armourclass. Now you are adding warlock, which wants CHA (especially if you have picked hexblade). You also want WIS (for all the class skills, including the important WIS (Perception) rolls). That's a lot of numbers to keep high (note that to multiclass barbarian and warlock, both your STR and CHA must be 13 or higher), especially if your table uses point-buy of ability scores (wich AL games do).
If you are intending on a bearbarian warlock, like gagaepic is, then you need 13 STR, 13 WIS and 13 CHA.
> My thought was to start with Barbarian 1/Warlock (hexblade) 2 for two castings of first level armor of agathys and one casting of the second level version.
As a warlock 2, you will only have two castings of the 1st level spell. You don't get 2nd level slots until warlock 3, and even then you only get 2 castings per short rest.
At the end of the day, though, are you having fun? Do you feel like your character is contributing some stuff to the table? Are they other players not getting frustrated that you are not carrying your share? If so, then your character is fine.
> One of the disadvantages is the multiple attribute dependency (MAD) of the multiclass
as a Hexblade I get to use CHA instead of STR for my weapon attacks so I focus my efforts there and a take just enough STR to multiclass, I wear medium armor so I don't have to build CON for AC, and I don't need WIS or INT for anything aside from some class skills that I didn't take. So I ended up building STR+2 CON+2 DEX+2 INT-1 WIS-1 CHA+3 enough to multiclass, get my highest AC, have decent hit points, and max out my casting/attacking stat
> As a warlock 2, you will only have two castings of the 1st level spell. You don't get 2nd level slots until warlock 3, and even then you only get 2 castings per short rest.
The second level casting of Armor of Agathys comes from a racial feature of the Levistus Tiefling.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I was planning out the levels for my new character and was thinking about going for a build based off of the spell armor of agathys I selected Levistus Tiefling and am starting at 3rd level. The rest of the party consists of ranged attackers and support characters.
My thought was to start with Barbarian 1/Warlock (hexblade) 2 for two castings of first level armor of agathys and one casting of the second level version. this gives me 20 THP and puts my effective health at 51, compared to the 35 I'd have as a straight barbarian. I was planning on building up to level 5 in warlock before building up to five in barbarian and then putting the rest into warlock, using both the ancestral guardians and hexblade subclasses
For invocations, I was planning on picking up the cloak of flies for the extra CHA damage every round and maddening hex (for the hexblade curse) to do it again plus Thirsting blade for two attacks so that at level 8 with GWM I can deal (average if both attacks hit and I get hit once) 67 points of damage, or 81 if I get hit twice. also having an effective HP pool of 115 compared to the 85 of a strait barbarian as well as recovering 30 of them every short rest.
this seems like a solid combo to me but in other forums, everyone says that Warbarians are bad and I can't figure out why
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
The main problem is this sentence.
"If you are able to cast spells, you can’t cast them or concentrate on them while raging."
Also thirsting blade does not stack with extra attack.
Good point Thirsting blade wouldn't be necessary after five levels of Barbarian, and I didn't take more than two attacks into account in the Damage Calculation. I'll probably swap it out for something else, good catch. armor of agathys does not require concentration and can be cast before raging, and the Hexblade's curse also does not require concentration, I'm not planning on casting any spells post-rage, or concentrating on any of them.
Edited for Grammer
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
it's all personal preference, opinion, and creativity based.
People say Mastermind Rogues are bad.
People say Beast Tamers are bad.
etc. etc. etc. Not everything is about or needs to be about combat and action economy, if you think it'd be fun or interesting, or would like to roleplay it. Go for it. Doesn't matter what others think.
Blank
I can get behind that, but I was thinking that it worked very well in the combat and action economy sense and was hoping that someone could point out why so many people think that it does not. I'm just wondering if I read something wrong or misinterpreted a rule or something.
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
from what I can tell...
People aren't thinking about it the way you are and how it is for RAW or RAI.
and thinking. "I can't do any of that while I rage"
where you very eloquently and correctly pointed out, you do them before you rage. and its completely doable.
Blank
Mechanically it works fine the way you want to use it, neither over nor under powered. It's just a strange way of going about it to combine classes such that a core feature of the class is largely unusable. Especially since you intend on highly leveling warlock but rarely casting. I would probably only take 3 levels of warlock, but if you are really set on those temporary hitpoints and enjoy roleplaying it, go for it.
I've done the theory crafting of a Barb/Warlock and decided against Armor of Agathys. Instead, I would take Fiendish Vigor and here's why:
Hi Ho! coming back to this forum after trying the multiclass out a little, in both home games and Adventure's league
I'm taking 3 levels of barbarian and the rest in warlock, meaning that the Armor of Agathys would be giving 25 Temp Hp at later levels, compared to the 6.5 generated on average by false life. I picked up polearm master as well so the retaliation isn't being made up for by the extra opportunity attack. I wouldn't want to go sword and board anyways, because of the damage my foes take upon hitting me, spending resources (like an open hand) to make my armor class higher wouldn't make sense. What else would you be using the spell slots for? I found keeping both for the Armor of Agathys works very well (especially since my group tends to take at least a short rest after two large encounters and several minor ones allowing me to armor up before every major fight and Adventure's League games rarely having more than two big fights per session). Why is false life better action economy? We can't cast it while raging and it takes an action just like Armor of Agathys, it even gives less temp HP after you pick up 2nd level slots and beyond, and it takes up a precious invocation slot that could be used for something like Eldrich Smite, or Cloak of Flies. I've decided to drop maddening hex because the PAM gave better bonus action damage without eating up an invocation, and also use totem of the bear barbarian for getting the most retaliation out of my retaliation.
I'm interested as to why you only took 4 levels of warlock and which patron you went with, I haven't tried building with majority Barb levels so there might be something I'm missing there.
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
Bunch of questions in there so I'll try breaking it all apart.
Why did I only choose 4 levels of Warlock? Because the whole reason to take Barbarian is to rage. And when you rage, you can't cast spells. So why spend all those levels learning spells you can only cast on your down time?
Why False Life over Agathys? I explained my reasons, but the biggest thing is, since I'm only taking 4 levels of Warlock, I would max out at level 2 spells which means 10 temp hp. False Life is 8 temp hp so there is only a 2 hp difference. But I can cast False Life over and over again an not use up my only 2 spell slots.
Why get Fiendish Vigor instead of Eldritch Smite and Cloak of Flies? Because I'm only taking 4 levels of Warlock and both of those Invocations require 5th level. Sensing a theme?
It sounds like you're only taking Warlock levels to boost Armor of Agathys. Which means you could stop at 9th level Warlock. Maybe go to 10th just to get a patron feature. But that's it. You still only have your original 2 spell slots. However if you go that far you miss out on an ASI, Persistent Rage, 2 more rages per long rest, and your final Path feature.
So in the end I figured I would cut my loses and stop at 4 levels and put my efforts into Barbarian.
As for my choices; I went Zealot Barbarian and Celestial Warlock. Mostly for thematic reasons. A Barbarian that is a fervent believer that becomes a vessel for his deity.
I’d be only using the slots to ready armor of Agathys before raging and possibly Eldritch Smiting on Crits. Warlocks have a lot going for them other than spellcasting.
False life Gives 1d4+4, or 6.5 average THP not 8. Using up the spell slots isn’t a problem, because as you’ve already pointed out, they can’t be used for casting spells while raging.
one of the reasons I was planing on going more than 4 levels of warlock. I get that you didn’t.
So one of the cool features I didn’t really talk about is the potential for a pretty decent crit build. Hexblade’s curse lets you crit on a 19 or 20 while the hex warrior feature lets you use CHA instead of STR for attacks (I know I miss out on the +2 rage bonus but stick with me) this lets me use elven accuracy for an almost 30% chance to critically hit. Crit with an Eldritch Smite leads to a 2d10+12d8+21 hit. 14 levels of warlock lets me move my curse around like a hex or hunters mark allowing me to keep up the damage bonuses and the crit chance. At 10th any enemy I curse gets a 50% chance of missing me with attacks that hit, furthering my survivability substantially. Most of what I want from Warlock are the class features, though I am missing out on the Zelot’s late game invincibility. Armor of Agathys is nice though, as it deals a deseptivly high amount of damage.
I like it.
I ended up going with a woodelf half elf who is sort of a revenant of a dead forest. I went with Totem of the Bear Barbarian and Hexblade Warlock.
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
I could kind of see this, but at the same time some of the benefits from Barbarian are incompatible with being a Warlock, such as spell casting. I would try this out for the first few sessions and see how you like it, but if I were you I might go for Fighter instead of Barbarian. Fighter doesn't give the same benefits as a Barbarian, but there are fewer restrictions and Action Surge could work pretty well to add extra damage.
I am totally there with you on the benefits of hexing and Armour of Agythys for barbarians. I have been playing a forest gnome bar-bear-ian (druid/barb) grappler in Descent into Avernus which has tons of flying critters and wide open spaces as the adventure progresses. I am now picking up 2 levels of GOO Warlock in order to be able to have some ranged attack options (eldritch blast) before wild shaping and grappling. I can also hex to make my grapple even more effective and gain Devil's Sight (which is always helpful when fighting devils who love their darkness spells). With limited rages per day, it makes sense to have a good plan B for non-rage melee. And frankly, I am ok taking full advantage of my 2 wild shapes per SR. I can cast hex, armour of agythys, and protection from poison before each one using druid spell slots (and my measly warlock slots) and keep on rolling.
I'm joining a new campaign soon with a Barbarian/Warlock combo. Gonna play a Giant Frog riding Kalashtar with some memory loss of his past. Spirit Guardian Barb, Warlock of the Raven Queen. I plan on taking the 1st level in barb then 3 in warlock then sticking with barbarian after that. The Warlock aspect is mostly for RP but provides some utility outside of combat in addition to pre battle buff spells. Our DM uses a "quirk" system to help build flaws and stuff and allowed me to take mounted combatant for some additional flaws. It could've worked with a variant human otherwise. Bottom line is as long as you do some research you can make just about any combination work. You'll always be sacrificing a bit from one side or the other, but it's all in the name of fun.
Dwarven Battlerager Barb/Chain Pact Warlocks are insanely good at tanking damage all day long. If you take the feat Dwarven Fortitude and the Eldritch Invocation Gift of the Ever Living Ones, you can take the dodge action and heal 12+CON multiple times by expending a hit die. The Battlerager also lets you bonus action melee attack even after dodging (while raging), so you're able to keep rage damage resistances active as well. Add in the temp HP granted every time you reckless attack (Battlerager 6th lvl), you're gonna be nearly impossible to put down. At level 9, a 6 Barb/3 Lock could tank about ~500 damage over a long fight. If you manage to find a Periapt of Wound Closure, this doubles your dodge healing, allowing you to tank an absurd ~750 total damage.
question could you still use a cantrip like eldritch blast or no while raged?
No. You can't cast or concentrate on spells while raging, which includes cantrips.
But things like armor of Agatha and mirror image which have a duration, but not concentration can be cast before raging.
One of the disadvantages is the multiple attribute dependancy (MAD) of the multiclass.
As a barbarian you want STR for damage, DEX and CON for health and armourclass. Now you are adding warlock, which wants CHA (especially if you have picked hexblade). You also want WIS (for all the class skills, including the important WIS (Perception) rolls). That's a lot of numbers to keep high (note that to multiclass barbarian and warlock, both your STR and CHA must be 13 or higher), especially if your table uses point-buy of ability scores (wich AL games do).
If you are intending on a bearbarian warlock, like gagaepic is, then you need 13 STR, 13 WIS and 13 CHA.
> My thought was to start with Barbarian 1/Warlock (hexblade) 2 for two castings of first level armor of agathys and one casting of the second level version.
As a warlock 2, you will only have two castings of the 1st level spell. You don't get 2nd level slots until warlock 3, and even then you only get 2 castings per short rest.
At the end of the day, though, are you having fun? Do you feel like your character is contributing some stuff to the table? Are they other players not getting frustrated that you are not carrying your share? If so, then your character is fine.
> One of the disadvantages is the multiple attribute dependency (MAD) of the multiclass
as a Hexblade I get to use CHA instead of STR for my weapon attacks so I focus my efforts there and a take just enough STR to multiclass, I wear medium armor so I don't have to build CON for AC, and I don't need WIS or INT for anything aside from some class skills that I didn't take. So I ended up building STR+2 CON+2 DEX+2 INT-1 WIS-1 CHA+3 enough to multiclass, get my highest AC, have decent hit points, and max out my casting/attacking stat
> As a warlock 2, you will only have two castings of the 1st level spell. You don't get 2nd level slots until warlock 3, and even then you only get 2 castings per short rest.
The second level casting of Armor of Agathys comes from a racial feature of the Levistus Tiefling.
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.