persuasion is a lot harder to cause a “charmed” status.
For myself personally, I like to flavor up the character in ways. Low int? High str? Persuasion isn’t his strong suit anyways, eventually a big word is used or a question that the answer isn’t known to. Now back to where we started or in an even worse off spot, especially if there is a time limit factor going on. Same char, intimidation. Less variables for the low intelligence guy to screw up. Takes less time.
similar situation but reversed. Low str? High Int? Persuasion is the way to go. What’s a few minutes and some well spent good pieces? If it gets the job done it gets the job done.
working against a group vs an individual.
persuasion is harder against a group of people than Intimidation is vs a group of people. If you fail to persuade 2 people but 4 are persuaded you’re still in a fix usually.
if you intimidate and frighten 4 people but don’t for 2 people. You might have 4 people running away. Then you have 2 people who are now thinking “2 is worse than 6”
its situationally dependant.
to your point, sure there’s not much difference between deception, persuasion, and intimidation. That’s what the role playing aspects are for.
Then, there’s other things to consider. Whom you are targeting. Try and persuade a random NPC to just up and leave their house because you want to use it for an ambush. Good luck.
Now, if you intimidate them, that’s a lot easier to have a house to use for an ambush.
right? Let’s now translate that not so great example to a real life scenario for you.
pretend I am a homeless person, and I just get in and sit passenger to you. “Might I persuade you into driving me downtown?”
what’s your response?
now pretend I am a homeless person, and I get in and sit passenger to you but I have a Gun. “Drive me downtown and you’ll never see me again”
I'm well aware of the difference, role-play-wise, or action-wise, or fluff-wise, between intimidation and persuasion. Mechanically, though, they're still the same: get someone to do what you want using your Charisma. Yes, the DC might change, depending on the particular situation (intimidating someone who's obviously more powerful than you should be more difficult than persuading them), but that's true of any skill which can be performed in multiple ways: "I jump over the 3' obstacle" should have a much lower Acrobatics DC than "I spin 180 degrees, somersault backwards while simultaneously spinning in the air, to land squarely on the other side of the 3' obstacle, but facing forwards". Both land you on the other side of the obstacle, both use Acrobatics, but they have different DCs. Persuasion: "I tell the guard to let me pass because I'm the Queen's favorite pet, and she'll be angry otherwise" told to a random guard who doesn't really know the Queen, should have a lower DC than told to one of the Queen's personal guard, who are well aware of who the Queen favors. The fact that a threatening-type coercion works better, or worse, than a sweet-talking one does not imply they should be different skills.
I'm not suggesting there should be no distinction between "intimidating someone" and "persuading someone", I'm suggesting that should be relegated to the role-playing aspect of the game, and not the mechanical aspect. Which is really what we already do for all the variants of persuasion and intimidation (depending on what you say and/or do to persuade or intimidate, the DC may change).
I: "Do it or I'll reach down your throat and feed you your balls from the inside!"
Well that's certainly a ... Vivid mental image. O_O
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That I can buy. They might be similar, but if one's limited in approach while giving you an extra bonus, I can see a separation. Although it might be tough to adjudicate some uses... when does it cross from Intimidation into Persuasion?
When you stop threatening the person?
"Let us pass, or I'll kill you."
"Let us pass, or my friend will kill you."
"Let us pass, or I won't be able to keep my friend from killing you."
"Let us pass, or the madman who is after me might kill you, too."
"Let us pass, or I won't be able to stop an assassin from killing your family."
"Let us pass, or I won't be able to stop an assassin from killing some random strangers."
"Let us pass, or I'll be killed by an assassin. You don't want that on your conscience, right?"
Or, what about: "Let us pass, and I'll put in a good word for you with the Captain of the Guard. Stop us, and we'll hurt you."?
and the last at bottom with Captain of guard persuasion
stop is and we’ll hurt you intimidation
I get your argument now.
only thing I can think of is they wanted to flesh out charisma to look like it had more skills... rather than leave the 3 similar but RP different ones as 1 skill.
or, they wanted to differentiate them for proficiency reasons.
Thank you 'DmThaco' for sharing this link as I am curious about all types of checks and contests. I would like to add to this discussion by bringing up something I find to be odd about the Aasimar racial ability. Fallen Aasimar have the Necrotic Shroud which seems to be a good use of Intimidation but is mechanically different, but the other Aasimar should have a similar result or at least a check of some kind should be made when your Protector Aasimar does this: "Starting at 3rd level, you can use your action to unleash the divine energy within yourself, causing your eyes to glimmer and two luminous, incorporeal wings to sprout from your back."
Or Scourge Aasimar: "Starting at 3rd level, you can use your action to unleash the divine energy within yourself, causing a searing light to radiate from you, pour out of your eyes and mouth, and threaten to char you." With Scourge I can understand why it would be less of a check and more of a straight up attack since the following happens:
"Your transformation lasts for 1 minute or until you end it as a bonus action. During it, you shed bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet, and at the end of each of your turns, you and each creature within 10 feet of you take radiant damage equal to half your level (rounded up). In addition, once on each of your turns, you can deal extra radiant damage to one target when you deal damage to it with an attack or a spell. The extra radiant damage equals your level."
Persuasion is "if you do what I want then something nice will happen to you." It is the skill of the bribe, the deal, the negotiation.
Intimidation is "if you don't do what I want then something nasty will happen to you." It is the skill of the threat, of blackmail, and of unwanted consequences.
Persuasion is "if you do what I want then something nice will happen to you." It is the skill of the bribe, the deal, the negotiation.
Intimidation is "if you don't do what I want then something bad will happen to you." It is the skill of the threat, of blackmail, and of unwanted consequences.
So which skill would you use for "Let us pass, and I'll make sure the Captain gives you a nice promotion. Block us, and we'll kill you."?
So as a DM would any of you allow for Intimidation advantage if you used the Aasimar transformation feature? I just can not believe it would not.
If it would grant advantage consistently, the rules would say so, so in this case it's a matter of who the Aasinmar is trying to intimidate.
It's a DM choice,in the end, in my opinion if it is the commoner that never went more than 2 miles outside their surroundings, they will hardly ever seen an Aasimar, let alone one that transforms in a different form, and might have actually heard cautionary tales, so the advantage is warranted. If, on the other hand, the target is a seasoned warrior, or a monster or anything that is likely to have had contact with a wide variety of creatures, I don't see a case being made for the attribution of Advantage.
Although persuasion is better and more charismatic, intimidation goes a long way and it stays with the target of intimidation for a while depending on how intimidating you are, and persuasion is harder to do when being compared to intimidation, especially when youre playing in an in-depth world. Also intimidation can be used for multiple things such as haggling, information, battle and striking fear into an opponents heart, whereas persuasion can only come in handy for haggling, information and convincing people not to attack you, even when you use persuasion the person of target can still stab you in the back whenever they want, whereas theyll be less willing to betray you when you are specialized in intimidation out of fear for their life or loved ones
even when you use persuasion the person of target can still stab you in the back whenever they want, whereas theyll be less willing to betray you when you are specialized in intimidation out of fear for their life or loved ones
You need some variation in your cultural intake if you truly believe this.
I’m sure this has been said, but there are some situations in which only one of the two is viable. If you need to convince a captured enemy to give up information, you’ll need to Intimidate them, even if you do it in a “we can help each other” kind of way. But if it’s a king or queen you need info from, anything but Persuasion is an express ticket to the dungeon.
For Intimidation I think of that scene in Batman where Bane just lays a hand on that dudes shoulder, and he knows he’s done for.
overall, I agree that it’s the intent behind it that matters - you have to pick one, so are you using the threat of immediate violence? Intimidation. Are you using your communication skills to artfully get someone to do something, even if there’s a hint of violence? Persuasion.
Some people can't be persuaded no matter how good you roll. Be as charming as you like but you will never sweet talk the crown off the kings head nor the key from the guard. But shove a sword in their face and they may hand it over.
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Intimidation will have the lowest Difficulty Class. However, it is also a hostile action, and there may be consequences to that.
Deception will have the next lowest. The problem here is that you might be caught in your lies. Once again, there may be consequences if they make that Insight(Wisdom) check or otherwise catch you out.
Persuasion is the most difficult way to get an NPC to do what you want them to do, the problem here is that it generally takes more time and effort to get the result you want.
Sure, you could roll all three skills into one and call it Influence(Charisma) if you really wanted to, but the three different methods have different levels of difficulty and different consequences, even if you succeed in the check, let alone if you fail.
"Let us pass, or I'll kill you." - Threat made. Intimidation.
"Let us pass, or my friend will kill you." - Still making a threat. Intimidation.
"Let us pass, or I won't be able to keep my friend from killing you." - Still making a threat. Intimidation.
"Let us pass, or the madman who is after me might kill you, too." - Unless there really is a homicidal madman on the way, that's Deception. Otherwise it's Persuasion.
"Let us pass, or I won't be able to stop an assassin from killing your family." - Same deal. Deception unless you're actually telling the truth. Then it's Persuasion.
"Let us pass, or I won't be able to stop an assassin from killing some random strangers." - Again. Deception unless it's the truth. Persuasion otherwise.
"Let us pass, or I'll be killed by an assassin. You don't want that on your conscience, right?" - Same-same. Deception most likely. Could be Persuasion if it's true.
Or, what about: "Let us pass, and I'll put in a good word for you with the Captain of the Guard. Stop us, and we'll hurt you."? - Threat made. Intimidation.
Yay for Thread Necromancy!
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Intimidation, can cause the frightened status.
persuasion is a lot harder to cause a “charmed” status.
For myself personally, I like to flavor up the character in ways. Low int? High str? Persuasion isn’t his strong suit anyways, eventually a big word is used or a question that the answer isn’t known to. Now back to where we started or in an even worse off spot, especially if there is a time limit factor going on. Same char, intimidation. Less variables for the low intelligence guy to screw up. Takes less time.
similar situation but reversed. Low str? High Int? Persuasion is the way to go. What’s a few minutes and some well spent good pieces? If it gets the job done it gets the job done.
working against a group vs an individual.
persuasion is harder against a group of people than Intimidation is vs a group of people. If you fail to persuade 2 people but 4 are persuaded you’re still in a fix usually.
if you intimidate and frighten 4 people but don’t for 2 people. You might have 4 people running away. Then you have 2 people who are now thinking “2 is worse than 6”
its situationally dependant.
to your point, sure there’s not much difference between deception, persuasion, and intimidation. That’s what the role playing aspects are for.
Then, there’s other things to consider. Whom you are targeting. Try and persuade a random NPC to just up and leave their house because you want to use it for an ambush. Good luck.
Now, if you intimidate them, that’s a lot easier to have a house to use for an ambush.
right? Let’s now translate that not so great example to a real life scenario for you.
pretend I am a homeless person, and I just get in and sit passenger to you. “Might I persuade you into driving me downtown?”
what’s your response?
now pretend I am a homeless person, and I get in and sit passenger to you but I have a Gun. “Drive me downtown and you’ll never see me again”
what’s your response?
Blank
I'm well aware of the difference, role-play-wise, or action-wise, or fluff-wise, between intimidation and persuasion. Mechanically, though, they're still the same: get someone to do what you want using your Charisma. Yes, the DC might change, depending on the particular situation (intimidating someone who's obviously more powerful than you should be more difficult than persuading them), but that's true of any skill which can be performed in multiple ways: "I jump over the 3' obstacle" should have a much lower Acrobatics DC than "I spin 180 degrees, somersault backwards while simultaneously spinning in the air, to land squarely on the other side of the 3' obstacle, but facing forwards". Both land you on the other side of the obstacle, both use Acrobatics, but they have different DCs. Persuasion: "I tell the guard to let me pass because I'm the Queen's favorite pet, and she'll be angry otherwise" told to a random guard who doesn't really know the Queen, should have a lower DC than told to one of the Queen's personal guard, who are well aware of who the Queen favors. The fact that a threatening-type coercion works better, or worse, than a sweet-talking one does not imply they should be different skills.
I'm not suggesting there should be no distinction between "intimidating someone" and "persuading someone", I'm suggesting that should be relegated to the role-playing aspect of the game, and not the mechanical aspect. Which is really what we already do for all the variants of persuasion and intimidation (depending on what you say and/or do to persuade or intimidate, the DC may change).
Btw, is it RAW that Intimidation can cause the frightened condition, and Persuasion the charmed condition?
No.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
P : "Could you please..."
I: "Do it or I'll reach down your throat and feed you your balls from the inside!"
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Well that's certainly a ... Vivid mental image. O_O
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Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Extremes are obvious... but how would you rule each of the examples I posted earlier?
For the examples above.
top to bottom:
intimidation
intimidation
intimidation
persuasion
intimidation
persuasion
persuasion
and the last at bottom with Captain of guard persuasion
stop is and we’ll hurt you intimidation
I get your argument now.
only thing I can think of is they wanted to flesh out charisma to look like it had more skills... rather than leave the 3 similar but RP different ones as 1 skill.
or, they wanted to differentiate them for proficiency reasons.
Blank
Thank you 'DmThaco' for sharing this link as I am curious about all types of checks and contests. I would like to add to this discussion by bringing up something I find to be odd about the Aasimar racial ability. Fallen Aasimar have the Necrotic Shroud which seems to be a good use of Intimidation but is mechanically different, but the other Aasimar should have a similar result or at least a check of some kind should be made when your Protector Aasimar does this: "Starting at 3rd level, you can use your action to unleash the divine energy within yourself, causing your eyes to glimmer and two luminous, incorporeal wings to sprout from your back."
Or Scourge Aasimar: "Starting at 3rd level, you can use your action to unleash the divine energy within yourself, causing a searing light to radiate from you, pour out of your eyes and mouth, and threaten to char you." With Scourge I can understand why it would be less of a check and more of a straight up attack since the following happens:
"Your transformation lasts for 1 minute or until you end it as a bonus action. During it, you shed bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet, and at the end of each of your turns, you and each creature within 10 feet of you take radiant damage equal to half your level (rounded up). In addition, once on each of your turns, you can deal extra radiant damage to one target when you deal damage to it with an attack or a spell. The extra radiant damage equals your level."
I distinguish them as follows:
Persuasion is "if you do what I want then something nice will happen to you." It is the skill of the bribe, the deal, the negotiation.
Intimidation is "if you don't do what I want then something nasty will happen to you." It is the skill of the threat, of blackmail, and of unwanted consequences.
So which skill would you use for "Let us pass, and I'll make sure the Captain gives you a nice promotion. Block us, and we'll kill you."?
Player's choice. Which they roll effects the NPCs reaction, good or ill.
Extended Signature
So as a DM would any of you allow for Intimidation advantage if you used the Aasimar transformation feature? I just can not believe it would not.
If it would grant advantage consistently, the rules would say so, so in this case it's a matter of who the Aasinmar is trying to intimidate.
It's a DM choice,in the end, in my opinion if it is the commoner that never went more than 2 miles outside their surroundings, they will hardly ever seen an Aasimar, let alone one that transforms in a different form, and might have actually heard cautionary tales, so the advantage is warranted.
If, on the other hand, the target is a seasoned warrior, or a monster or anything that is likely to have had contact with a wide variety of creatures, I don't see a case being made for the attribution of Advantage.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Although persuasion is better and more charismatic, intimidation goes a long way and it stays with the target of intimidation for a while depending on how intimidating you are, and persuasion is harder to do when being compared to intimidation, especially when youre playing in an in-depth world. Also intimidation can be used for multiple things such as haggling, information, battle and striking fear into an opponents heart, whereas persuasion can only come in handy for haggling, information and convincing people not to attack you, even when you use persuasion the person of target can still stab you in the back whenever they want, whereas theyll be less willing to betray you when you are specialized in intimidation out of fear for their life or loved ones
You need some variation in your cultural intake if you truly believe this.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
I’m sure this has been said, but there are some situations in which only one of the two is viable. If you need to convince a captured enemy to give up information, you’ll need to Intimidate them, even if you do it in a “we can help each other” kind of way. But if it’s a king or queen you need info from, anything but Persuasion is an express ticket to the dungeon.
Edit: wow this thread is old
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
For Intimidation I think of that scene in Batman where Bane just lays a hand on that dudes shoulder, and he knows he’s done for.
overall, I agree that it’s the intent behind it that matters - you have to pick one, so are you using the threat of immediate violence? Intimidation. Are you using your communication skills to artfully get someone to do something, even if there’s a hint of violence? Persuasion.
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Some people can't be persuaded no matter how good you roll. Be as charming as you like but you will never sweet talk the crown off the kings head nor the key from the guard. But shove a sword in their face and they may hand it over.
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPmyTI0tZ6nM-bzY0IG3ww
Intimidation will have the lowest Difficulty Class. However, it is also a hostile action, and there may be consequences to that.
Deception will have the next lowest. The problem here is that you might be caught in your lies. Once again, there may be consequences if they make that Insight(Wisdom) check or otherwise catch you out.
Persuasion is the most difficult way to get an NPC to do what you want them to do, the problem here is that it generally takes more time and effort to get the result you want.
Sure, you could roll all three skills into one and call it Influence(Charisma) if you really wanted to, but the three different methods have different levels of difficulty and different consequences, even if you succeed in the check, let alone if you fail.
"Let us pass, or I'll kill you." - Threat made. Intimidation.
"Let us pass, or my friend will kill you." - Still making a threat. Intimidation.
"Let us pass, or I won't be able to keep my friend from killing you." - Still making a threat. Intimidation.
"Let us pass, or the madman who is after me might kill you, too." - Unless there really is a homicidal madman on the way, that's Deception. Otherwise it's Persuasion.
"Let us pass, or I won't be able to stop an assassin from killing your family." - Same deal. Deception unless you're actually telling the truth. Then it's Persuasion.
"Let us pass, or I won't be able to stop an assassin from killing some random strangers." - Again. Deception unless it's the truth. Persuasion otherwise.
"Let us pass, or I'll be killed by an assassin. You don't want that on your conscience, right?" - Same-same. Deception most likely. Could be Persuasion if it's true.
Or, what about: "Let us pass, and I'll put in a good word for you with the Captain of the Guard. Stop us, and we'll hurt you."? - Threat made. Intimidation.
Yay for Thread Necromancy!
<Insert clever signature here>