So I'm trying to figure out if a caster that only uses the Vicious Mockery cantrip and literally no other spells can be at least a decent build.
I'm guessing taking the Magic Initiate feat is probably the best way of getting Viscous Mockery.
I figure most of the levels will go into Sorcerer because if you convert all your spell slots into Sorcerery Points and use Quickened Spell and Twinned Spell to cast Vicious Mockery you can basically cast it three times per round.
Some levels would probably go into Wizard of the School of Evocation, because at 6th level they get Potent Cantrip, so if a creature succeeds on the saving throw against Viscous Mockery they take half damage instead of no damage.
So the build looks like Sorcerer 14/Wizard 6
Assuming there are at least 2 targets the average damage would be 15-30 damage per turn, depending on whether they failed the saving throw or not.
So at the moment it looks pretty underwhelming, do you guys have any thoughts on how to make it at least a decent build?
From a combat standpoint it's very limiting, but it could be made up for in the other two pillars of adventuring. From the standpoint of social interaction and exploration, I don't know since you did not include any discussion of that in your post.
Yeah, the main value of the build is just for the fact that it would be fun to roleplay a character that just insults enemies to death, I'm just wondering if there's any way of making this build stronger.
The sorcerer twin/quickened stuff is one way to throw more Vicious Mockerys around per turn, but level 10 enchanter is as well. Hmmm, lemme play with a build a little bit and get back to you...
You can only apply one meta magic per round. So Twin and Quickened together won't work.
EDIT: per spell not per round, thanks for clarification Demo_N
While the spell's damage does scale it isn't as good as other spells like Eldritch Blast. I'd recommend finding ways to exploit the disadvantage component of the wording to get the most use out of it.
The rule is one Metamagic option per spell not per round, so they would work together, but you wouldn't be able to use Twinned Spell on a Quickened Spell.
But yeah, the real combat value is probably the potential to impose disadvantage on up to three enemies per round.
Didn't get around to build yet, but I summarized build options below. TLDR: Tiefling Warlock (Hexblade) 2/Wizard (Evoker) 6/Sorcerer (Wild Magic or Divine Soul) 12, with the feats Warcaster and Polearm master.
As a variant tiefling, you can cast Vicious Mockery with no need for a feat investment. This is the only way to start with the concept as a level 1 sorceror instead of a bard, or to avoid wasting a feat on magic initiate. Stats don't hurt, so I think you might as way call it and say that this is the race if you're trying to do this without bard levels.
As a sorcerer it's pretty conceivable that you can cast Vicious Mockery four times on your turn, and twice as a reaction, as long as you have spell points to burn (4 per turn, 1 per reaction!!!). A Wizard (Enchanter) 10/Cleric (Order) 6 can do the same thing unconstrained by spell points... although the bonus casting can only be done [wisdom modifier] times per long rest, so it actually runs out of steam pretty quick. Combine all three for maximum staying power, or just Wizard (Enchanter) 10/Sorcerer for a more realistic build that goes through spell points much slower than a straight sorcerer (only 2 spell points per turn, 0 per reaction).
Hexblade's Curse is the best passive for boosting damage with the spell since it applies each time you roll damage dice... especially if combined with Wizard (Evocation) 6 to guarantee 4-6 damage rolls per round, regardless of what enemy rolls for saves. It only takes a 1 level investment, so I don't see a good reason not to do so at some point.
Warcaster strikes me as the only feat relevant to the build, although you probably need to build in another trick like Polearm Master to motivate enemies to actually generate attacks of opportunity instead of just punching you in the face.
When you actually look at spell points at each level, the "trick" (casting it twice per round, targeting two opponents each time, and casting as a reaction targeting two opponents) isn't very reliable until mid-late levels when you have a ton of spell points. You can start twinning/quickening at level 3.... when you'll be able to do your wombo combo a grand total of 2 or 3 turns per long rest. Considering that there's probably around 20 rounds of combat per long rest regardless of level of play, this may simply not make sense as a "real" character to be played at a table until you can muster around 40ish spell points or their equivalent. That takes Sorcerer 8, or Wizard (Enchanter) 10/Sorcerer 3, or Wizard (Evoker) 6/Sorcerer 3.
All of the sorcerer subclasses are pretty irrelevant to Vicious Mockery, with the exception of Wild Magic. Wild Magic has a great level 18 capstone for a spell that uses d4's... but I don't think that building the character pure sorcerer is the way to go? The level 6 ability is relevant... but also seems like a bad use for spell points, since you'd probably hit two more targets or twin the spell, rather than just investing in a chance to do a small amount more damage and impose disadvantage? Divine Soul (Chaos) also gets honorable mention, for getting access to Bane and a level 18 capstone that lets you taunt enemies with less chance of dying.
And here's a list of compoents...
All the ways to get Vicious Mockery that I can think of (real shame that there's no way to turn it into a Wizard or Cleric spell...):
Be a bard (charisma based, count as bard spells)
Be a bard and take it as a Magical Secret bonus cantrip (charisma based, count as bard spells... but what's the point?)
Be a tome-lock (charisma based, count as warlock spells)
Be a variant tiefling that chooses "Devil's Tongue" (charisma based, don't count as a class spell)
Take the magic initiate feat (charisma based, count as bard spells)
Sorcerer metamagic Quickened Spell (2 points) to cast as a Bonus action
Cleric (Order) 6: Embodiment of the Law, to cast as a Bonus action [wisdom modifier] times per long rest (basically worth 2-10 sorcery points per long rest)
Sorcerer metamagic Twinned Spell (1 points) to target a second creature per casting
Wizard (Enchanter) 10: Split Enchantment to target a second creature per casting (basically worth 3 sorcery points per round all day long, tough to pass up)
War Caster, to be able to cast Vicious Mockery as a reaction when enemies provoke attacks of opportunity. Unfortunately Mage Slayer will not work in tandem with this to get you more reliable attacks of opportunity, Sentinel only half works, but Polearm Master is perfect.
All the ways to directly boost Vicious Mockerys damage that I can think of:
Your charisma bonus, when casting as a charisma-based spell
Wizard (Evocation) 6: Potent Cantrip, for half damage on save
[Tooltip Not Found] has options for an arcane focus giving +1 damage on psychic damage rolls
Wizard (Invention) 6: Alchemical Casting, to burn level 2 spell slots while casting for a bonus 2d10 force damage (risky, and probably worse math than using that 2nd level slot for 2 sorc points for 1 or 2 more targets)
Sorcerer (Wild Magic) 18: Spell Bombardment, to roll a bonus damage die whenever you roll a 4 on any of the spell's d4's once per turn
Goblin's Fury of the Small, to add [character level] damage once per short rest (meh)
Hexblade's Curse, to add proficiency bonus damage per damage roll
Bestow Curse (touch, Bard/Cleric/[Warlock]/Wizard) for some bonus necrotic damage (and disadvantage on the Wis saves]
Ways to boost Will Save DC's/lower their save rolls:
Sorcerer metamagic Heightened Spell (3 points) to impose disadvantage on 1 save (too pricey!)
While typing that out I didn't realize you cant twin a quickened spell, so I guess that drops the sorcerer combo a little bit while making the Enchanter and Cleric features a little more valuable as being non-metamagic ways of twinning/quickening.....
Hexblade 2/Evoker 6/Divine Soul 12 menioned above is still decent, letting you mock 2 people with your action (twin), mock 1 with your bonus (quicken), and mock two with your reaction (twin), doing half damage even on saves and adding bonus damage on all the damage rolls of your hex target.
Hexblade 2/Wild Mage 18 has the same actions as above, but you don't do damage on failed saves, but you roll an extra d4 any time you roll a 4 on a mock's damage roll. Evoker probably does more damage per round using mockery, but this has the attraction of not being super weird and burdening your spell list with wisdom or intelligence-based spells.
Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 3/Order Cleric 6/Enchanter 10 lets you mock 2 people with your action (twin), 2 people with your bonus [wisdom modifier] turns per long rest (cleric+twin) or 1 per bonus after that using sorc points (quicken), and 2 with your reaction (twin), adding bonus damage on the rolls against your hex target.
Eldritch Knight 8/Enchanter 10/Hexblade 2 will let you mock two people using your action, punch 1 with your bonus, then mock two people during your reaction, with bonus damage on all the damage rolls against your hex target. None of this uses any sorcery points!
Warlock 2/Sorcerer 4/Valor Bard 14 is similar to the above, letting you mock two people using sorcery points (twin) with your action, punch 1 with your bonus, then mock two during your reaction (twin) with bonus damage on all rolls against your hex target. This build is worth mentioning as it's the only way to not be a tiefling (unless you want to waste a feat on magic initiate). Other bard features aren't super relevant to combat, but Expertise on Intimidation and Performance will probably feel pretty thematic so there's that.
Drunken Master 8/Order Cleric 8/Sorcerer 4 will let you mock two people using your action (twin) or punch twice applying bonus psych damage to the hits, mock two people using your bonus (cleric+twin, wis modifier times per long rest) or mock one (quicken) or punch once/twice applying bonus psych damage, and mock two people during your reaction (twin) or redirect a missed attack.... This seems like the coolest combo IMHO since there are so many different configurations of how to arrange your actions, giving you something to think about instead of just doing the same combo every time. Sacrificing an ASI would let you shave off a sorcerer level to pick up Hexblade, meh.
Ugh I'm an idiot Order Cleric feature only applies to leveled spells, and the bonus psych damage is once per round. BRB deleting my account in disgrace everything is awful.
The illusionist's bracers will let you cast it as a bonus action without metamagic so you can twin it again. That's 4 castings for 2 sorcery points instead of 3 for 3. But DM will have to give them to you.
You can also use the hex to do extra necrotic damage and gives disadvantage, so hexblade warlock has two reasons to dip. [Edit] This was incorrect. Still a good spell in most other cases.
You might be best going devil's tongue teifling, 3 levels hexblade warlock, and 17 levels divine soul sorcerer. Pact of tome with book of ancient secrets gets you 3 more cantrips and all the rituals you could want. Hexblade gets you the curse, medium armor, shields, martial weapons, and can use charisma as weapon ability. Your other invocation can be repelling blast or beguiling charm depending on what party needs. Divine soul sorcerer gets you cleric support spells, and metamagic. You can also burn the two pact magic spell slots for 4 sorcery points per short rest.
DxJxc, I have no moral highground to point out anyone else's errors, but do note that hex won't work since it applies damage "whenever you hit with an attack". Save spells are not attacks.
DxJxc, I have no moral highground to point out anyone else's errors, but do note that hex won't work since it applies damage "whenever you hit with an attack". Save spells are not attacks.
Oops. Didn't put that together (forgot VM was a save when looking at hex, and forgot Hex didn't work on saves looking at VM).
Hmm, it looks like the level 10 Enchanter Wizard feature only applies to level 1 or higher spells, so it looks like Evocation Wizard is probably one of the better multiclass options. Although, the Arcane Trickster has an ability at level 9 where if you're hidden from a creature they have disadvantage against your spells. It doesn't synergize well with the Evocation feature so you would probably have to choose one over the other.
Another factor is the Sorcerer's Spell Point limit, the max number of SP that can have at one time is equal to your Sorcerer level, so when you run out of SP you have to use a bonus action to regain more SP, which would mean you would have to use 1 less Viscous Mockery that turn.
Hmm, it looks like the level 10 Enchanter Wizard feature only applies to level 1 or higher spells, so it looks like Evocation Wizard is probably one of the better multiclass options. Although, the Arcane Trickster has an ability at level 9 where if you're hidden from a creature they have disadvantage against your spells. It doesn't synergize well with the Evocation feature so you would probably have to choose one over the other.
Another factor is the Sorcerer's Spell Point limit, the max number of SP that can have at one time is equal to your Sorcerer level, so when you run out of SP you have to use a bonus action to regain more SP, which would mean you would have to use 1 less Viscous Mockery that turn.
*Ivemadeahugemistake.gif*
See? This is why I shouldn't try to work out builds without using the character creator!!! You can't build a good house on a shaky foundation of half-read rules >_<
Have you considered a Bard Character? I believe this is a free cantrip at level 2 or 3.
Or, you could simply give a magic item that allows Vicious Mockery spells.
From there you can build the character any way you would like.
The Bard has so many special uses in a campaign that requires interactions with NPCs that I am probably going to have one in every campaign I run in the future. The old Bard had to be about level 12 before he was really a bard. Before then he was a Fighter-Thief multi-class character. The new Bards are amazing pretty early, especially if you run a large party.
Have you considered a Bard Character? I believe this is a free cantrip at level 2 or 3.
Or, you could simply give a magic item that allows Vicious Mockery spells.
From there you can build the character any way you would like.
Good Luck & Happy New Year!
Vicious Mockery is a bard only spell and there are no official magic items that grant it, but bards don't have a way of powering it up, which is the OP's intention.
Bards are a versatile and powerful support class, but can't do much that another class couldn't do better. They are good at filling in the gaps in party balance, but a well diversified party would leave a bard with not much to do.
Also my goal is to see if I can make a character that literally does nothing during combat except cast Vicious Mockery, so I'm not terribly concerned with versatility.
Although one thing that Bards do have that I hadn't considered yet is cutting words, its similar to Vicious Mockery in that it's literally just insulting people, but it only requires a reaction instead of an action or bonus action, so it won't interfere with your action economy.
So I'm trying to figure out if a caster that only uses the Vicious Mockery cantrip and literally no other spells can be at least a decent build.
I'm guessing taking the Magic Initiate feat is probably the best way of getting Viscous Mockery.
I figure most of the levels will go into Sorcerer because if you convert all your spell slots into Sorcerery Points and use Quickened Spell and Twinned Spell to cast Vicious Mockery you can basically cast it three times per round.
Some levels would probably go into Wizard of the School of Evocation, because at 6th level they get Potent Cantrip, so if a creature succeeds on the saving throw against Viscous Mockery they take half damage instead of no damage.
So the build looks like Sorcerer 14/Wizard 6
Assuming there are at least 2 targets the average damage would be 15-30 damage per turn, depending on whether they failed the saving throw or not.
So at the moment it looks pretty underwhelming, do you guys have any thoughts on how to make it at least a decent build?
From a combat standpoint it's very limiting, but it could be made up for in the other two pillars of adventuring. From the standpoint of social interaction and exploration, I don't know since you did not include any discussion of that in your post.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah, the main value of the build is just for the fact that it would be fun to roleplay a character that just insults enemies to death, I'm just wondering if there's any way of making this build stronger.
The sorcerer twin/quickened stuff is one way to throw more Vicious Mockerys around per turn, but level 10 enchanter is as well. Hmmm, lemme play with a build a little bit and get back to you...
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You can only apply one meta magic per round. So Twin and Quickened together won't work.
EDIT: per spell not per round, thanks for clarification Demo_N
While the spell's damage does scale it isn't as good as other spells like Eldritch Blast. I'd recommend finding ways to exploit the disadvantage component of the wording to get the most use out of it.
The rule is one Metamagic option per spell not per round, so they would work together, but you wouldn't be able to use Twinned Spell on a Quickened Spell.
But yeah, the real combat value is probably the potential to impose disadvantage on up to three enemies per round.
Ok so you Twin a VM then Quicken to make another VM if I read this right?
Does seem like other uses of spell points would be better but if that’s how I’m reading it, it would let the OP crank a ton out in a round
Didn't get around to build yet, but I summarized build options below. TLDR: Tiefling Warlock (Hexblade) 2/Wizard (Evoker) 6/Sorcerer (Wild Magic or Divine Soul) 12, with the feats Warcaster and Polearm master.
And here's a list of compoents...
All the ways to get Vicious Mockery that I can think of (real shame that there's no way to turn it into a Wizard or Cleric spell...):
Ways to cast Vicious Mockery more often per round:
All the ways to directly boost Vicious Mockerys damage that I can think of:
Ways to boost Will Save DC's/lower their save rolls:
Ways to take advantage of enemy having Disadvantage on their next attack:
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
While typing that out I didn't realize you cant twin a quickened spell, so I guess that drops the sorcerer combo a little bit while making the Enchanter and Cleric features a little more valuable as being non-metamagic ways of twinning/quickening.....
Hexblade 2/Evoker 6/Divine Soul 12 menioned above is still decent, letting you mock 2 people with your action (twin), mock 1 with your bonus (quicken), and mock two with your reaction (twin), doing half damage even on saves and adding bonus damage on all the damage rolls of your hex target.
Hexblade 2/Wild Mage 18 has the same actions as above, but you don't do damage on failed saves, but you roll an extra d4 any time you roll a 4 on a mock's damage roll. Evoker probably does more damage per round using mockery, but this has the attraction of not being super weird and burdening your spell list with wisdom or intelligence-based spells.
Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 3/Order Cleric 6/Enchanter 10 lets you mock 2 people with your action (twin), 2 people with your bonus [wisdom modifier] turns per long rest (cleric+twin) or 1 per bonus after that using sorc points (quicken), and 2 with your reaction (twin), adding bonus damage on the rolls against your hex target.
Eldritch Knight 8/Enchanter 10/Hexblade 2 will let you mock two people using your action, punch 1 with your bonus, then mock two people during your reaction, with bonus damage on all the damage rolls against your hex target. None of this uses any sorcery points!
Warlock 2/Sorcerer 4/Valor Bard 14 is similar to the above, letting you mock two people using sorcery points (twin) with your action, punch 1 with your bonus, then mock two during your reaction (twin) with bonus damage on all rolls against your hex target. This build is worth mentioning as it's the only way to not be a tiefling (unless you want to waste a feat on magic initiate). Other bard features aren't super relevant to combat, but Expertise on Intimidation and Performance will probably feel pretty thematic so there's that.
Drunken Master 8/Order Cleric 8/Sorcerer 4 will let you mock two people using your action (twin) or punch twice applying bonus psych damage to the hits, mock two people using your bonus (cleric+twin, wis modifier times per long rest) or mock one (quicken) or punch once/twice applying bonus psych damage, and mock two people during your reaction (twin) or redirect a missed attack.... This seems like the coolest combo IMHO since there are so many different configurations of how to arrange your actions, giving you something to think about instead of just doing the same combo every time. Sacrificing an ASI would let you shave off a sorcerer level to pick up Hexblade, meh.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Ugh I'm an idiot Order Cleric feature only applies to leveled spells, and the bonus psych damage is once per round. BRB deleting my account in disgrace everything is awful.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The illusionist's bracers will let you cast it as a bonus action without metamagic so you can twin it again. That's 4 castings for 2 sorcery points instead of 3 for 3. But DM will have to give them to you.
You can also use the hex to do extra necrotic damage and gives disadvantage, so hexblade warlock has two reasons to dip.[Edit] This was incorrect. Still a good spell in most other cases.You might be best going devil's tongue teifling, 3 levels hexblade warlock, and 17 levels divine soul sorcerer. Pact of tome with book of ancient secrets gets you 3 more cantrips and all the rituals you could want. Hexblade gets you the curse, medium armor, shields, martial weapons, and can use charisma as weapon ability. Your other invocation can be repelling blast or beguiling charm depending on what party needs. Divine soul sorcerer gets you cleric support spells, and metamagic. You can also burn the two pact magic spell slots for 4 sorcery points per short rest.
DxJxc, I have no moral highground to point out anyone else's errors, but do note that hex won't work since it applies damage "whenever you hit with an attack". Save spells are not attacks.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Oops. Didn't put that together (forgot VM was a save when looking at hex, and forgot Hex didn't work on saves looking at VM).
Hmm, it looks like the level 10 Enchanter Wizard feature only applies to level 1 or higher spells, so it looks like Evocation Wizard is probably one of the better multiclass options. Although, the Arcane Trickster has an ability at level 9 where if you're hidden from a creature they have disadvantage against your spells. It doesn't synergize well with the Evocation feature so you would probably have to choose one over the other.
Another factor is the Sorcerer's Spell Point limit, the max number of SP that can have at one time is equal to your Sorcerer level, so when you run out of SP you have to use a bonus action to regain more SP, which would mean you would have to use 1 less Viscous Mockery that turn.
With Vicious Mockery up and Fighter using Riposte or Ranger with Giant Killer, you can get free attacks with your reaction if the target misses.
*Ivemadeahugemistake.gif*
See? This is why I shouldn't try to work out builds without using the character creator!!! You can't build a good house on a shaky foundation of half-read rules >_<
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Have you considered a Bard Character? I believe this is a free cantrip at level 2 or 3.
Or, you could simply give a magic item that allows Vicious Mockery spells.
From there you can build the character any way you would like.
The Bard has so many special uses in a campaign that requires interactions with NPCs that I am probably going to have one in every campaign I run in the future. The old Bard had to be about level 12 before he was really a bard. Before then he was a Fighter-Thief multi-class character. The new Bards are amazing pretty early, especially if you run a large party.
Good Luck & Happy New Year!
Vicious Mockery is a bard only spell and there are no official magic items that grant it, but bards don't have a way of powering it up, which is the OP's intention.
Bards are a versatile and powerful support class, but can't do much that another class couldn't do better. They are good at filling in the gaps in party balance, but a well diversified party would leave a bard with not much to do.
Also my goal is to see if I can make a character that literally does nothing during combat except cast Vicious Mockery, so I'm not terribly concerned with versatility.
Although one thing that Bards do have that I hadn't considered yet is cutting words, its similar to Vicious Mockery in that it's literally just insulting people, but it only requires a reaction instead of an action or bonus action, so it won't interfere with your action economy.
Yes, I believe I was thinking of cutting words. I'm still getting up to speed to the current rules. Good luck.