That was a rhetorical question. The RAW for grappling in no way reference the rules for carrying capacity. It uses two of the same words, but that’s because there are only so many plain language synonyms. If they meant for grappling to call back to carrying capacity they would have added a specific reference to it like: (see the “Using Each Ability” section in chapter 7 for more information). They did not, and that’s a very clear sign that the two rule sets are not meant to refer to one another.
Besides, which rules for carrying capacity are we supposed to use? Most likely, part of the reason they chose to make grappling wholly separate from carrying capacity was so that a DM could use the rules for carrying capacity that best suit them and it specifically not affect grappling.
I just think it’s an... interesting choice, to suppose that you can carry your dying friend no problem, but once he fails his third death save and becomes a corpse you only then become encumbered???
Carrying capacity is how much weight you can carry, lift, push, or drag. Objects have weight. Creatures have weight. To assume that creature weight is not counted against your capacity but object weight is is.... bizarre, and I fail to see how that would simplify anything. Do you count the weight of the objects and equipment on the creature but not the creature itself? Or are we really just saying “carry weight only limits the weight of objects you write on your character sheet”?
You play your way, but you’re WAY off the deep end of houseruling/oversimplifying to the point of erasing rule systems with that one, in my honest opinion. Carry weight limits dragging. You move grappled creatures by lifting/dragging them. End of story.
I just think it’s an... interesting choice, to suppose that you can carry your dying friend no problem, but once he fails his third death save and becomes a corpse you only then become encumbered???
Carrying capacity is how much weight you can carry, lift, push, or drag. Objects have weight. Creatures have weight. To assume that creature weight is not counted against your capacity but object weight is is.... bizarre, and I fail to see how that would simplify anything. Do you count the weight of the objects and equipment on the creature but not the creature itself? Or are we really just saying “carry weight only limits the weight of objects you write on your character sheet”?
You play your way, but you’re WAY off the deep end of houseruling/oversimplifying to the point of erasing rule systems with that one, in my honest opinion. Carry weight limits dragging. You move grappled creatures by lifting/dragging them. End of story.
And I’m my opinion it is WAY off the deep end of houseruling to apply those rules in this situation since the specifically refrained from referencing them. If they intended for carrying capacity to influence grappling, they would have explicitly stated it.
Besides, who wants to stop in the middle of combat to calculate encumbrances? It’s easier to just go by creature size and keep the game flowing.
I think of moving a grappled creature as the creature is off balance and stumbling around. The grappler can cause the creature to go in the direction they want. This wouldn’t be a good visualization for all situations such as a prone grappled creature.
From my experience, it’s better to have simple rules that keep the action flowing rather than spending 10 minutes in the middle of combat trying to figure out the rules.
If grappled meant off-balance and stumbling around, I would think there would be more of a combat penalty associated with it.
On the other hand, maybe I'm talking the word "drag" too literally. It would be pretty difficult to drag someone that is still on their feet, especially using only one hand.
I just think it’s an... interesting choice, to suppose that you can carry your dying friend no problem, but once he fails his third death save and becomes a corpse you only then become encumbered???
Having thought about more, here’s my answer to this specific point:
Legitimately, I would probably just use the size restriction listed in grappling until combat was over before switching to the carrying capacity rules out of combat and just chalk it up to adrenaline. That way combat can move fluidly.
I also had an idea on how to make sure there was an official answer independently researched by an impartial 3rd party. Report the lack of tooltips/links for the words “carry” and “drag” under Moving a Grappled Creature as a bug report to DDB. Since they are under contract to present the information accurately, they can confirm it and that would get an official answer. Make sense?
If you are standing one square west of a grappled target, and drag them while moving one square north, where do YOU think the grappled target moves, if not to a square that maintains its current position in relation to you? What language do you point to to answer?
The dragged creature moves to the square you vacated. I point to the English language. In the common usage of the English language, you doesn't drag something to the side of yourself. Dragging refers to behind yourself.
The RAW says drag. No other language needed.
What language do you point to for your interpretation?
Tried to find a definition that says you have to drag something behind you, most definitions I can find are "to pull something along forcefully or roughly".
Also from personal experience I know you can drag someone (or something) to your side in a direction parallel to your travel, when doing search and rescue exercises and due to the amount of hazards/obstacles I've needed to face forward to maintain safety, rather than walking backwards and dragging with my oppo looking after my safety.
Tried to find a definition that says you have to drag something behind you, most definitions I can find are "to pull something along forcefully or roughly".
Also from personal experience I know you can drag someone (or something) to your side in a direction parallel to your travel, when doing search and rescue exercises and due to the amount of hazards/obstacles I've needed to face forward to maintain safety, rather than walking backwards and dragging with my oppo looking after my safety.
Pull: To apply force to (something) so as to cause or tend to cause motion toward the source of the force.
And if that source of the force is your arm or hand holding the other object to the side of you?
If your hand or arm wants to pull something without you, that's fine. If you want to pull or drag something, it had better be toward you.
Or in the same direction your traveling if you point of contact with the other object is out of alignment of your center of mass, you dont have a hand growing out of your back do you?
Another real world example (yes dnd is jot the real world, but then what we are discussing is small pitaties out of materialising fire or matter out of nothing) is pulling a wheel suit case along with you, it travels in a path parallel to your direction of travel not behind your center of mass.
And if that source of the force is your arm or hand holding the other object to the side of you?
If your hand or arm wants to pull something without you, that's fine. If you want to pull or drag something, it had better be toward you.
Or in the same direction your traveling if you point of contact with the other object is out of alignment of your center of mass, you dont have a hand growing out of your back do you?
Another real world example (yes dnd is jot the real world, but then what we are discussing is small pitaties out of materialising fire or matter out of nothing) is pulling a wheel suit case along with you, it travels in a path parallel to your direction of travel not behind your center of mass.
The suitcase doesn't travel on a parallel path ~5 feet away from your center of mass either. The suitcase is still mostly, if not exactly, behind you.
If you want to argue the physics of the situation we can, but that argument greatly favors an interpretation that it is either impossible or incredibly difficult to move someone or something with one hand in a parallel path 5 feet away from your path.
5E isn't a simulation, and impossible/difficult feats is what it's all about. :)
Nothing in the grappling section says that a dragged creature follows 5 feet behind you as you move; instead it merely says that you drag or carry it "with you." Now, we've heard an (in my opinion, because it's my opinion) reasonable interpretation that "with you" means "in the same direction with you", and also heard your own reasonable interpretation that "with you" means "behind you following the path of your center of mass" and there's obviously arguments to be made for both. What there is not is a clear and necessary single RAW description of one or the other of those, so whether you as a DM will apply the more permissive option or the more restrictive option comes down to a table-by-table decision and what philosophy you have about cannons of textual interpretation.
I never apply the most restrictive interpretation for my tables, when the RAW is equally supportive of a more player-empowering interpretation. That's because I feel like a DM should never say "no" to a player when the rules don't require it (and sometimes, not even then!). If you have a different philosophy, fine, but "with you=behind you" is at best a RAI ruling, not a RAW one.
5E isn't a simulation, and impossible/difficult feats is what it's all about. :)
Why yes, and if the character uses a Push/Trip maneuver they can move a target any way they want. However, no check automatic movement gets to be boring. It should not be a free action to throw someone off a cliff.
Nope, because the RAW says you can move a grappled creature by "drag or carry"ing it, and there are clear RAW rules for what you can "drag or carry" found in Chapter 7! While it may take a judgment call from me as a DM to decide how much a particular enemy weighs, it requires no judgment call from me at all to rule that carrying/dragging weight is dictated by your character's strength :)
Nope, because the RAW says you can move a grappled creature by "drag or carry"ing it, and there are clear RAW rules for what you can "drag or carry" found in Chapter 7! While it may take a judgment call from me as a DM to decide how much a particular enemy weighs, it requires no judgment call from me at all to rule that carrying weight is dictated by your character's strength :)
That translates as "despite RAW claiming you can move a creature up to one size larger than you, you actually can't".
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Yes I’m sure.
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That was a rhetorical question. The RAW for grappling in no way reference the rules for carrying capacity. It uses two of the same words, but that’s because there are only so many plain language synonyms. If they meant for grappling to call back to carrying capacity they would have added a specific reference to it like: (see the “Using Each Ability” section in chapter 7 for more information). They did not, and that’s a very clear sign that the two rule sets are not meant to refer to one another.
Besides, which rules for carrying capacity are we supposed to use? Most likely, part of the reason they chose to make grappling wholly separate from carrying capacity was so that a DM could use the rules for carrying capacity that best suit them and it specifically not affect grappling.
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I just think it’s an... interesting choice, to suppose that you can carry your dying friend no problem, but once he fails his third death save and becomes a corpse you only then become encumbered???
Carrying capacity is how much weight you can carry, lift, push, or drag. Objects have weight. Creatures have weight. To assume that creature weight is not counted against your capacity but object weight is is.... bizarre, and I fail to see how that would simplify anything. Do you count the weight of the objects and equipment on the creature but not the creature itself? Or are we really just saying “carry weight only limits the weight of objects you write on your character sheet”?
You play your way, but you’re WAY off the deep end of houseruling/oversimplifying to the point of erasing rule systems with that one, in my honest opinion. Carry weight limits dragging. You move grappled creatures by lifting/dragging them. End of story.
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Technically, there is a tweet of Crawford that mentions that drag and lift is unrelated to grappling. However, it's always up to the DM, as always
However, I see no point in having so strongly voiced opinions on this subject, and exposing them violently.
My homebrew feat for thrown weapons, feat to help DMs extend Sorcerer's spells known list, and my homebrew combo monk subclass (diablo inspired)!
And I’m my opinion it is WAY off the deep end of houseruling to apply those rules in this situation since the specifically refrained from referencing them. If they intended for carrying capacity to influence grappling, they would have explicitly stated it.
Besides, who wants to stop in the middle of combat to calculate encumbrances? It’s easier to just go by creature size and keep the game flowing.
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I think of moving a grappled creature as the creature is off balance and stumbling around. The grappler can cause the creature to go in the direction they want. This wouldn’t be a good visualization for all situations such as a prone grappled creature.
From my experience, it’s better to have simple rules that keep the action flowing rather than spending 10 minutes in the middle of combat trying to figure out the rules.
If grappled meant off-balance and stumbling around, I would think there would be more of a combat penalty associated with it.
On the other hand, maybe I'm talking the word "drag" too literally. It would be pretty difficult to drag someone that is still on their feet, especially using only one hand.
A creature's weight is not part of its stat block, so presumably it is considered not an important stat for combat purposes.
Having thought about more, here’s my answer to this specific point:
Legitimately, I would probably just use the size restriction listed in grappling until combat was over before switching to the carrying capacity rules out of combat and just chalk it up to adrenaline. That way combat can move fluidly.
I also had an idea on how to make sure there was an official answer independently researched by an impartial 3rd party. Report the lack of tooltips/links for the words “carry” and “drag” under Moving a Grappled Creature as a bug report to DDB. Since they are under contract to present the information accurately, they can confirm it and that would get an official answer. Make sense?
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Tried to find a definition that says you have to drag something behind you, most definitions I can find are "to pull something along forcefully or roughly".
Also from personal experience I know you can drag someone (or something) to your side in a direction parallel to your travel, when doing search and rescue exercises and due to the amount of hazards/obstacles I've needed to face forward to maintain safety, rather than walking backwards and dragging with my oppo looking after my safety.
Pull: To apply force to (something) so as to cause or tend to cause motion toward the source of the force.
And if that source of the force is your arm or hand holding the other object to the side of you?
If your hand or arm wants to pull something without you, that's fine. If you want to pull or drag something, it had better be toward you.
Or in the same direction your traveling if you point of contact with the other object is out of alignment of your center of mass, you dont have a hand growing out of your back do you?
Another real world example (yes dnd is jot the real world, but then what we are discussing is small pitaties out of materialising fire or matter out of nothing) is pulling a wheel suit case along with you, it travels in a path parallel to your direction of travel not behind your center of mass.
The suitcase doesn't travel on a parallel path ~5 feet away from your center of mass either. The suitcase is still mostly, if not exactly, behind you.
If you want to argue the physics of the situation we can, but that argument greatly favors an interpretation that it is either impossible or incredibly difficult to move someone or something with one hand in a parallel path 5 feet away from your path.
5E isn't a simulation, and impossible/difficult feats is what it's all about. :)
Nothing in the grappling section says that a dragged creature follows 5 feet behind you as you move; instead it merely says that you drag or carry it "with you." Now, we've heard an (in my opinion, because it's my opinion) reasonable interpretation that "with you" means "in the same direction with you", and also heard your own reasonable interpretation that "with you" means "behind you following the path of your center of mass" and there's obviously arguments to be made for both. What there is not is a clear and necessary single RAW description of one or the other of those, so whether you as a DM will apply the more permissive option or the more restrictive option comes down to a table-by-table decision and what philosophy you have about cannons of textual interpretation.
I never apply the most restrictive interpretation for my tables, when the RAW is equally supportive of a more player-empowering interpretation. That's because I feel like a DM should never say "no" to a player when the rules don't require it (and sometimes, not even then!). If you have a different philosophy, fine, but "with you=behind you" is at best a RAI ruling, not a RAW one.
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Why yes, and if the character uses a Push/Trip maneuver they can move a target any way they want. However, no check automatic movement gets to be boring. It should not be a free action to throw someone off a cliff.
You mean like Moving a Grappled Creature not also restricting them by having to follow encumbrance rules too?
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Nope, because the RAW says you can move a grappled creature by "drag or carry"ing it, and there are clear RAW rules for what you can "drag or carry" found in Chapter 7! While it may take a judgment call from me as a DM to decide how much a particular enemy weighs, it requires no judgment call from me at all to rule that carrying/dragging weight is dictated by your character's strength :)
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That translates as "despite RAW claiming you can move a creature up to one size larger than you, you actually can't".