I think the only part that would keep warding bond from being twinned would be the interpretation that the DM put on the sentence, "It also ends if the spell is cast again on either of the connected creatures." Some may interpret that to mean that one caster can only be bonded one other creature where others could interpret it as meaning that someone else can't cast it on either the target or the caster. I can see the merits of both arguments.
Blade ward is rarely better than the dodge action.
Small update on blade ward: "you have resistance against bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage dealt by weapon attacks." Definitely the damage from warding bond is not due to weapon attacks.
I think the only part that would keep warding bond from being twinned would be the interpretation that the DM put on the sentence, "It also ends if the spell is cast again on either of the connected creatures." Some may interpret that to mean that one caster can only be bonded one other creature where others could interpret it as meaning that someone else can't cast it on either the target or the caster. I can see the merits of both arguments.
I can see why a DM might rule it that way. I think that DM would be wrong though. Twinning a spell is explicitly not casting the spell again, it is giving the single casting of the spell a second target. If twinning was a second casting, then it wouldn't allow the sorcerer to maintain "double" concentration.
I bolded the relevant sections. The spell text always differentiates between the caster and the target. Based on that I think there is only one target and it isn't the caster so a sorcerer should be able to twin cast it.
If you apply a spell's effect to a creature or object, you're targeting them. That's true even if the spell never refers to them as a target. If you hit someone with Lightning Bolt, you've targeted them with the spell. If you cast Dragon's Breath and then exhale fire energy at a group of goblins, you targeted them with the spell. The rules are using that word in its normal English sense.
Well, one great build might be hexblade 3/divine soul sorcerer 17. It isn't MAD, only needing a 14 DEX and focus CHA then CON. 9 cantrips (if I counted right), hex, spirit guardians, spiritual weapon, twinned and/or quickened booming blade and green-flame blade for 2-3 attacks per turn, all the cleric's healing spells. I know you said you wanted to avoid it, but it is a good build.
A celestial warlock that starts 2-5 levels of fighter or paladin can fit pretty well. Celestial warlocks get an ability that is basically healing word without spell slots and a few of the cleric's go-to heal spells. You can also get the fiendish vigour invocation for 8 temp HP as an action without slots.
Because hexblade can turn any MAD build into a SAD build, it's everywhere. I'm trying to avoid hexblade because it's soo good that it's in every build. Maybe I'm being too hipster with my builds, but I like to see variety in the game.
Fighter has some synergy with the second wind, but not much. I think paladin has less synergy except that they can cast healing spells, but honestly when I play paladin I save those slots for smiting. At least both options give a good reason to be up front.
Nah, you're not being hipster at all. Using different options is part of the reason there are different options to begin with.
I do think part of the difficulty here is that you're taking an invocation meant for warlocks who will take a lot of damage, and trying to maximize it's use while also not using other abilities that work very well with a warlock who will take a lot of damage. It's a bit like asking about maximizing the use of a sword with someone other than a warrior class :) If you look at the game as combining stats and abilities and min/maxing, you're going to run up against the 'best' combos, and find it hard to equal them.
If you're interested in different, I'd recommend taking the options you think would be fun to play, and not worrying about maximizing things to begin with. As soon as you start thinking about maximizing, you're working at cross-purposes with 'variety' to a large extent.
I bolded the relevant sections. The spell text always differentiates between the caster and the target. Based on that I think there is only one target and it isn't the caster so a sorcerer should be able to twin cast it.
If you apply a spell's effect to a creature or object, you're targeting them. That's true even if the spell never refers to them as a target. If you hit someone with Lightning Bolt, you've targeted them with the spell. If you cast Dragon's Breath and then exhale fire energy at a group of goblins, you targeted them with the spell. The rules are using that word in its normal English sense.
After reading your comment and researching it myself, I think I finally understand the Crawford ruling. I have reservations about it because it seems to directly contradict RAW. If the designers meant "directly affect" when they wrote "target" in the twinned spell description, that's worthy of an actual errata and not just a Crawford tweet. Alternatively, WotC could go through all the spell descriptions and make sure they only say target when they really mean it. I definitely concede that warding bond directly affects 2 people, but it only targets one per the spell text.
Crawford also rules that multiple warding bonds can be up simultaneously through multiple castings, but the spell text says, "The spell ends if ... the spell is cast again on either of the connected creatures." What does "cast on" mean if not affect or targeting?
If I can just cast twice (or more) before combat, I'm not sure it's worth it to worry about twinning. Honestly though, I could see a DM objecting to either/both twinning or/and multiple castings.
Nah, you're not being hipster at all. Using different options is part of the reason there are different options to begin with.
I do think part of the difficulty here is that you're taking an invocation meant for warlocks who will take a lot of damage, and trying to maximize it's use while also not using other abilities that work very well with a warlock who will take a lot of damage. It's a bit like asking about maximizing the use of a sword with someone other than a warrior class :) If you look at the game as combining stats and abilities and min/maxing, you're going to run up against the 'best' combos, and find it hard to equal them.
If you're interested in different, I'd recommend taking the options you think would be fun to play, and not worrying about maximizing things to begin with. As soon as you start thinking about maximizing, you're working at cross-purposes with 'variety' to a large extent.
I appreciate that the somewhat artificial restrictions I've put on the build will lead to a less effective build, but I think it's worthwhile to try to make effective characters while maintaining character diversity. What if I had just said PHB+1 so you could not take BB/GFB with the hexblade? That's the situation in AL (not that I'm necessarily going to play this character in AL or elsewhere). I think under that restriction, hexblade goes from far superior to having similar problems to every other build, but with medium armor proficiency.
Nah, you're not being hipster at all. Using different options is part of the reason there are different options to begin with.
I do think part of the difficulty here is that you're taking an invocation meant for warlocks who will take a lot of damage, and trying to maximize it's use while also not using other abilities that work very well with a warlock who will take a lot of damage. It's a bit like asking about maximizing the use of a sword with someone other than a warrior class :) If you look at the game as combining stats and abilities and min/maxing, you're going to run up against the 'best' combos, and find it hard to equal them.
If you're interested in different, I'd recommend taking the options you think would be fun to play, and not worrying about maximizing things to begin with. As soon as you start thinking about maximizing, you're working at cross-purposes with 'variety' to a large extent.
I appreciate that the somewhat artificial restrictions I've put on the build will lead to a less effective build, but I think it's worthwhile to try to make effective characters while maintaining character diversity. What if I had just said PHB+1 so you could not take BB/GFB with the hexblade? That's the situation in AL (not that I'm necessarily going to play this character in AL or elsewhere). I think under that restriction, hexblade goes from far superior to having similar problems to every other build, but with medium armor proficiency.
I get you, I didn't mean to imply that it's a meaningless question or a waste of time or anything. To me it just seemed that maybe some people were approaching it with a mindset of 'maximizing', aka 'making it the absolute best', as opposed to just 'how can I make this character competent and efficient'. The goal is perfectly reasonable :)
I do think Hexblade is still a great option for how many people play warlocks--I'm sure you already understand, not all subclasses are created equal, right? But I think it's maybe mistaken to focus on having to be in melee. If you can throw a ton of damage downrange with spells, you're going to (or you should, at least) attract a lot of attention from the enemy. Well constructed encounters should have ranged bad guys protected by melee bad guys, just like the non-melee warlock is protected by his own group. If that's not the case, if most of the baddies you meet are melee-only and your warlock is ranged, then yeah--it may just be that Gift of ELO (don't bring me dowwwwwn!) isn't as useful to you.
I use Gift of the Ever-Living Ones with the Celestial Warlock. I can heal myself for up to 30 hit points at a time as a bonus action. That seems pretty nice to me.
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"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
I use Gift of the Ever-Living Ones with the Celestial Warlock. I can heal myself for up to 30 hit points at a time as a bonus action. That seems pretty nice to me.
That is pretty nice. Most of the builds suggested in the thread don't maximize charisma. Do you think it's still worthwhile to go celestial when 12 hp healing is the limit or does fiend/archfey start to make more sense in that case?
If you're wanting full self heal shenanigans, be a dwarf with dwarven fortitude and get levels in moon druid. When you use wildshape you also gain the forms hit dice. Since you keep your features and abilities in wildshape, you can take the dodge action to self heal with your forms hit die.
If you're wanting full self heal shenanigans, be a dwarf with dwarven fortitude and get levels in moon druid. When you use wildshape you also gain the forms hit dice. Since you keep your features and abilities in wildshape, you can take the dodge action to self heal with your forms hit die.
That's fantastic. I was skeptical that it would work the way you described, but a little research led me to agree that you are right. Even better when paired with that sweet periapt of wound closure.
Since I would want at least 3-5 levels of warlock, when should I take those to not slow down wild shape progression too much? Maybe take the 3 warlock levels first. It might set me back in damage, but a CR1 dire wolf has 5 HD to burn through.
I'd say you'd probably want to get 4 levels in Warlock, so you can get the ASI/Feat for Dwarven Fortitude. Then get druid to level 2 for Wildshape. Afterwards you'd probably wanna stick with druid for levels, unless there was a specific warlock Eldritch Invocation or spell you'd get at warlock level 5.
Optionally, you could also take 1 level in Barbarian for the damage resistance. However, you wouldn't have any bonus action methods for attack so Rage would be likely to drop once you took a dodge action to heal.
For more dodge heal cheese rather than damage resistance, if you took two levels in Monk after hitting level 6 you could unlock Patient Defense. This allows you to spend 1 ki to bonus action Dodge. You would be able to use your action to attack, and heal with bonus action Patient Defense dodge. Or if your HP is low, just Action: Dodge and Bonus Action: Dodge to heal basically your entire HP.
Havlock, hilarious concept! 10 out of 10. According to tweeted comments about what abilities do and dont transfer this is legitimate. I however would not be surprised if a DM would insist that an ability that is called dwarven fortitude only works when you have the body of a dwarf. Each table is different however, have fun with it, but dont spoil anyone elses :)
Imp gives advantage on all attacks, and has True Devil sight which you can use to see the whole battlefield. Cast darkness as race ability once a day never get hit and attack at super advantage. Can be used for melee combat.
If multiclassing could go Moon Druid. Become animal always max heal with spell slots and have imp for super advantage. Only need charisma and wisdom for stats. Throw in 1 lvl monk for unarmored defense.
If your going off the deep end: Go moon druid 10, sorcerer 3 warlock 3
At 10th wildshape lasts 5 hours, even as an elemental
Elementals are immune to exhaustion, you can pump iron all day, never sleep never tire. And that is why moon druids never sleep.
Sorcerers covert spell slots to sorcerer spell slots
Warlocks get recoverable spell slots on a short rest, Druids recover wildshape on a short rest, even in wildshape.
So elemental rest, transfer warlock to sorcerer, rest, repeat. It has been misguidingly believed that this wont allow you to stay with the party - WRONG. the other invocation you take is voice of the chain master and the familiar remains invisible with the party whilst you rest. you then force march / dash after them when your on the move, taking out one hour of every 5 to rest and you will still travel twice as far as them in a 'marching day' and have the time to do it again because YOU. NEVER. STOP.
After a day of down time meditating as an earth elemental below the ground you could easily devote half your day for warlock to sorcerer spell conversions. Thats 24 first level spells or 12 second (and sorcery points wasted if your 16th) and a half day (give or take 3 hours for resting) to potter around. Thats per day. You cant cast your spells, but you can use them to heal, maximised and you wont be running out any time soon, you also have your elemental form hitdice to spend, then rest and get a fresh elemental form with FRESH HITDICE to spend.
Thats not enough? Go full one man druid - earth elemental form, below ground, 10' reach, tremor sense, attack from concealment with advantage (you are so very hidden) your enemies can now attack you... through over 5 foot of earth. Thats known as total cover and so disallows attacks, if the 5' of ground wasnt obvious enough, you dont care you burrow and can pass through stone without leaving a trace. Oh? Whats that? you took the sentinel feat as well so the poor little mite cant run from you? Oh well. If you need to see your enemies final pain filled moments and dont simply want to kill 90% of all creatures in the monster manual with impunity, pop your head / sensory rocks and meatbag hammers above ground - thats still 3/4 cover bringing your elemental ac of 17 up to 22. If you do get hit, be a submarine dive, heal and then repeat. You are a gigantic I. WIN. button. You dont need a team you dont need other players, your a siege monster, hiding upstairs in buildings from you just makes the building a piggy bank you smash the foundations of before the xp falls out. Burrowing monsters cant see you if you dont move through stone - why? because you dont disturb natural earth. Your a submarine, except, you know, subterra. Throw warlock maximised healing into this and it gets worse, with a sorcerer as well? Healing spirit, maximised, all day every day. Make it rain hitpoints.
Thank you. This is the new big bad in my next campaign.
Without multi-classing, what are some of the best ways to leverage Gift of the Ever Living Ones? What magic items, feats, or spells align nicely with this invocation?
Without multi-classing, what are some of the best ways to leverage Gift of the Ever Living Ones? What magic items, feats, or spells align nicely with this invocation?
A feat that jumps to mind is the Dwarven Fortitude feat. When you dodge, you may spend one hit dice to receive healing equal to the die roll plus your constitution modifier. Although you might not be dodging much as a warlock, and would be much easier with some multiclassing, it’s still a nice option to have when things get dire mid fight. That being said, I think the max healing applies to hit die spent on a short rest anyway. Which is a pretty nice perk.
A celestial warlock has a pool of d6’s to spend on healing. If you’re the greedy type you can save them all for yourself and be able to put out a heal almost half as strong as the 6th level heal spell, on a bonus action 4 times per long rest (if you’re max level). You can spend a number of dice equal to your charisma modifier each time it’s used. 5d6 maximised for 30 health. Interestingly enough, if you assume average hp with a Con mod of +3 or less, that 30hp will be roughly your entire health pool restored at level (4) which coincides with when you get access to 5 dice. That’s some good early game bang for your buck. Most instant restore health abilities only give half your max health back, and unlock much later on in levels.
Good information! I'm a half-elf with pact of the Fiend. I'm the resident blaster and we have a dedicated Wizard for the ritual casting so I opted for the imp to offset not having a rogue. I didn't take Gift of the Ever Living Ones yet, but considering it if I can find a synergy to increase its use.
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I think the only part that would keep warding bond from being twinned would be the interpretation that the DM put on the sentence, "It also ends if the spell is cast again on either of the connected creatures." Some may interpret that to mean that one caster can only be bonded one other creature where others could interpret it as meaning that someone else can't cast it on either the target or the caster. I can see the merits of both arguments.
Small update on blade ward: "you have resistance against bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage dealt by weapon attacks." Definitely the damage from warding bond is not due to weapon attacks.
I can see why a DM might rule it that way. I think that DM would be wrong though. Twinning a spell is explicitly not casting the spell again, it is giving the single casting of the spell a second target. If twinning was a second casting, then it wouldn't allow the sorcerer to maintain "double" concentration.
If you apply a spell's effect to a creature or object, you're targeting them. That's true even if the spell never refers to them as a target. If you hit someone with Lightning Bolt, you've targeted them with the spell. If you cast Dragon's Breath and then exhale fire energy at a group of goblins, you targeted them with the spell. The rules are using that word in its normal English sense.
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Nah, you're not being hipster at all. Using different options is part of the reason there are different options to begin with.
I do think part of the difficulty here is that you're taking an invocation meant for warlocks who will take a lot of damage, and trying to maximize it's use while also not using other abilities that work very well with a warlock who will take a lot of damage. It's a bit like asking about maximizing the use of a sword with someone other than a warrior class :) If you look at the game as combining stats and abilities and min/maxing, you're going to run up against the 'best' combos, and find it hard to equal them.
If you're interested in different, I'd recommend taking the options you think would be fun to play, and not worrying about maximizing things to begin with. As soon as you start thinking about maximizing, you're working at cross-purposes with 'variety' to a large extent.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
After reading your comment and researching it myself, I think I finally understand the Crawford ruling. I have reservations about it because it seems to directly contradict RAW. If the designers meant "directly affect" when they wrote "target" in the twinned spell description, that's worthy of an actual errata and not just a Crawford tweet. Alternatively, WotC could go through all the spell descriptions and make sure they only say target when they really mean it. I definitely concede that warding bond directly affects 2 people, but it only targets one per the spell text.
Crawford also rules that multiple warding bonds can be up simultaneously through multiple castings, but the spell text says, "The spell ends if ... the spell is cast again on either of the connected creatures." What does "cast on" mean if not affect or targeting?
If I can just cast twice (or more) before combat, I'm not sure it's worth it to worry about twinning. Honestly though, I could see a DM objecting to either/both twinning or/and multiple castings.
I appreciate that the somewhat artificial restrictions I've put on the build will lead to a less effective build, but I think it's worthwhile to try to make effective characters while maintaining character diversity. What if I had just said PHB+1 so you could not take BB/GFB with the hexblade? That's the situation in AL (not that I'm necessarily going to play this character in AL or elsewhere). I think under that restriction, hexblade goes from far superior to having similar problems to every other build, but with medium armor proficiency.
I get you, I didn't mean to imply that it's a meaningless question or a waste of time or anything. To me it just seemed that maybe some people were approaching it with a mindset of 'maximizing', aka 'making it the absolute best', as opposed to just 'how can I make this character competent and efficient'. The goal is perfectly reasonable :)
I do think Hexblade is still a great option for how many people play warlocks--I'm sure you already understand, not all subclasses are created equal, right? But I think it's maybe mistaken to focus on having to be in melee. If you can throw a ton of damage downrange with spells, you're going to (or you should, at least) attract a lot of attention from the enemy. Well constructed encounters should have ranged bad guys protected by melee bad guys, just like the non-melee warlock is protected by his own group. If that's not the case, if most of the baddies you meet are melee-only and your warlock is ranged, then yeah--it may just be that Gift of ELO (don't bring me dowwwwwn!) isn't as useful to you.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
Don't forget that this would interact with a Bard's Song of Rest.
I use Gift of the Ever-Living Ones with the Celestial Warlock. I can heal myself for up to 30 hit points at a time as a bonus action. That seems pretty nice to me.
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
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That is pretty nice. Most of the builds suggested in the thread don't maximize charisma. Do you think it's still worthwhile to go celestial when 12 hp healing is the limit or does fiend/archfey start to make more sense in that case?
If you're wanting full self heal shenanigans, be a dwarf with dwarven fortitude and get levels in moon druid. When you use wildshape you also gain the forms hit dice. Since you keep your features and abilities in wildshape, you can take the dodge action to self heal with your forms hit die.
That's fantastic. I was skeptical that it would work the way you described, but a little research led me to agree that you are right. Even better when paired with that sweet periapt of wound closure.
Since I would want at least 3-5 levels of warlock, when should I take those to not slow down wild shape progression too much? Maybe take the 3 warlock levels first. It might set me back in damage, but a CR1 dire wolf has 5 HD to burn through.
I'd say you'd probably want to get 4 levels in Warlock, so you can get the ASI/Feat for Dwarven Fortitude. Then get druid to level 2 for Wildshape. Afterwards you'd probably wanna stick with druid for levels, unless there was a specific warlock Eldritch Invocation or spell you'd get at warlock level 5.
Optionally, you could also take 1 level in Barbarian for the damage resistance. However, you wouldn't have any bonus action methods for attack so Rage would be likely to drop once you took a dodge action to heal.
For more dodge heal cheese rather than damage resistance, if you took two levels in Monk after hitting level 6 you could unlock Patient Defense. This allows you to spend 1 ki to bonus action Dodge. You would be able to use your action to attack, and heal with bonus action Patient Defense dodge. Or if your HP is low, just Action: Dodge and Bonus Action: Dodge to heal basically your entire HP.
Havlock, hilarious concept! 10 out of 10. According to tweeted comments about what abilities do and dont transfer this is legitimate. I however would not be surprised if a DM would insist that an ability that is called dwarven fortitude only works when you have the body of a dwarf. Each table is different however, have fun with it, but dont spoil anyone elses :)
Race
Half elf drow
Pact of chain warlock
Elven accuracy
Imp gives advantage on all attacks, and has True Devil sight which you can use to see the whole battlefield. Cast darkness as race ability once a day never get hit and attack at super advantage. Can be used for melee combat.
If multiclassing could go Moon Druid. Become animal always max heal with spell slots and have imp for super advantage. Only need charisma and wisdom for stats. Throw in 1 lvl monk for unarmored defense.
Thank you. This is the new big bad in my next campaign.
Without multi-classing, what are some of the best ways to leverage Gift of the Ever Living Ones? What magic items, feats, or spells align nicely with this invocation?
A feat that jumps to mind is the Dwarven Fortitude feat. When you dodge, you may spend one hit dice to receive healing equal to the die roll plus your constitution modifier. Although you might not be dodging much as a warlock, and would be much easier with some multiclassing, it’s still a nice option to have when things get dire mid fight. That being said, I think the max healing applies to hit die spent on a short rest anyway. Which is a pretty nice perk.
A celestial warlock has a pool of d6’s to spend on healing. If you’re the greedy type you can save them all for yourself and be able to put out a heal almost half as strong as the 6th level heal spell, on a bonus action 4 times per long rest (if you’re max level). You can spend a number of dice equal to your charisma modifier each time it’s used. 5d6 maximised for 30 health. Interestingly enough, if you assume average hp with a Con mod of +3 or less, that 30hp will be roughly your entire health pool restored at level (4) which coincides with when you get access to 5 dice. That’s some good early game bang for your buck. Most instant restore health abilities only give half your max health back, and unlock much later on in levels.
Good information! I'm a half-elf with pact of the Fiend. I'm the resident blaster and we have a dedicated Wizard for the ritual casting so I opted for the imp to offset not having a rogue. I didn't take Gift of the Ever Living Ones yet, but considering it if I can find a synergy to increase its use.