I have a friend that chose the Samurai subclass and is struggling to enjoy the choice. Human 4th level Fighter(Samurai), 18 Str, 18 Con 14 Dex with Sentinel Feat and Great Weapon Fighting Style. He is using a Katana (Long Sword) two handed.
Where should he go from here or is the subclass a waste of time?
What does he not like about it? Also, what is his Wisdom, as that's a big thing for Samurai? Samurai is a more roleplay oriented Subclass as far as Fighter subclasses go; the Insight or Persuasion proficiency you can take when choosing the class goes a long way towards that, and at level 7 they they gain an extra bonus to Persuasion checks equal to their Wisdom modifier. If he doesn't have Persuasion proficiency, it's a huge waste.
If he just wants to smash things, it's not the best choice, but does have some potential. Fighting Spirit is pretty decent, but doesn't fully shine until they start getting Extra attacks (level 5, 11 and 20). This is particularly potent when combined with Action Surge. Use Fighting Spirit to gain Advantage on ALL attacks for the rest of your turn, make your attack(s) (again, Extra attack will help a lot) and then use Action Surge to make all your attacks again. At his next level (5) when he gets Extra Attack, this will allow him to make 4 attacks with Advantage in one turn, which is pretty exceptional.
Using a Longsword in two hands is also hugely limiting him, if he went with the Great Weapon Fighting Style. Since the GWF style allows you to reroll a 1 or 2 on any damage die, he'd much better off using a Greatsword or Maul, as they both have 2 damage die instead of 1 like longswords. I don't know the exact math, but this significantly increases his average damage per attack. He can flavor it as an Odachi to fit with the Samurai feel.
Addition: Sentinel honestly isn't the best feat for a Samurai. As mentioned, he should use a Greatsword, and Sentinel is best with a Glaive. Also, Fighting Spirit only lasts until the end of the Samurai's turn. If it was until their next turn or until the end of the round, it would be a lot more potent as they could have Advantage on their Attacks of Opportunity.
Great Weapon Master would be much better; if he kills someone with an attack or scores a crit, he gets another attack which will also benefit from the Advantage of Fighting Spirit. The second part of GWM is "Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage." The Advantage gained from Fighting Spirit would offset the -5 penalty, and this could be done on every one of the Samurais attacks; that's a tonne of damage potential all told, with Action Surge and Fighting Spirit.
I don't remember the exact Wis and Cha scores but I know they are lower than 13.
I think the odachi is a good idea and I am not sure why he didn't go that route in the first place. He is mostly wanting to up his damage and is a little jealous of the Barbarian in the group.
I don't remember the exact Wis and Cha scores but I know they are lower than 13.
I think the odachi is a good idea and I am not sure why he didn't go that route in the first place. He is mostly wanting to up his damage and is a little jealous of the Barbarian in the group.
No problem. I haven't thought much on Samurais before so this is very interesting to me.
Charisma honestly doesn't matter for a Samurai. It can increase their Persuasion even more, but sinking points into Charisma is a big expense for just a bit of an addition since they also get to add their Wisdom. Insight is Wisdom based, so if they have Proficiency in Insight and Persuasion and have decent Wisdom, they'll be great at both of them.
Also he has fairly high Dexterity, which - since Fighters can equip Heavy Armor - isn't useful for him unless for some reason he really likes Dexterity skills like Acrobatics. If he does, he's playing the wrong class. If possible, he should drop his Dex and increase his Wis. Charisma really should only be 8 or 10, Dexterity can also be 8.
The more I think about it the more I realize just how potent Samurai can be, but only if it's built in a specific way.
Oof, I am wrong about something actually. The extra possible attack from GWM is a bonus action, so could not be used in conjunction with Fighting Spirit. Still, this gives him the ability to get more attacks when he doesn't use/have Fighting Spirit.
Just wanna add up the damage potential.
2d6+4 is an average of 10 damage. GWF Style increases this, I think by +2 per die but let's say +1 to be safe; that's an average of 12 damage per attack. With Extra Attack next level, that's 24 average damage per turn. Action Surge increases this to 48 damage across 4 attacks. GWM's low-acc-high-dmg attack increases this to 22 average damage per attack, or 88 damage across 4 attacks, with all those attacks being able to get Advantage from Fighting Spirit. At level 5, that's absolutely insane damage potential from a single turn.
Mechanically, the Samurai subclass doesn't have a lot of flashy tricks. Fighting Spirit essentially gives you a few turns a day where you can go HAM on the bad guys. Pair it with your Action Surge for double the attacks, and pair the Advantage with either Sharpshooter & a bow, or Great Weapon Master and a Heavy weapon and you can really bring the pain. And free proficiency in Wisdom saving throws? AWESOME. Take the Resilient(Dex) feat at some point and you can be proficient in all three of the major saves.
Fighters in general have lots of roleplay potential precisely because they're such a nonspecific class. The backstory potential is wide open. And as for the Samurai, You don't have to adhere to a traditional Japanese-flavor backstory & personality, the core of the Samurai class is a Fighter with increased diplomatic skill and a deep strength of willpower. That can be manifested as an almost Paladin-like devotion to a cause, or maybe a Monk-like dedication to self-improvement. Or maybe it's just ruthless discipline developed through years of intense martial training.
The next time I get around to playing an archer I think I'm gonna make him a Samurai so I can go supernova with Sharpshooter. Just need to come up with a good story for him :)
Oof, I am wrong about something actually. The extra possible attack from GWM is a bonus action, so could not be used in conjunction with Fighting Spirit. Still, this gives him the ability to get more attacks when he doesn't use/have Fighting Spirit.
Just wanna add up the damage potential.
2d6+4 is an average of 10 damage. GWF Style increases this, I think by +2 per die but let's say +1 to be safe; that's an average of 12 damage per attack. With Extra Attack next level, that's 24 average damage per turn. Action Surge increases this to 48 damage across 4 attacks. GWM's low-acc-high-dmg attack increases this to 22 average damage per attack, or 88 damage across 4 attacks, with all those attacks being able to get Advantage from Fighting Spirit. At level 5, that's absolutely insane damage potential from a single turn.
I've done some rough math on the Great Weapon Fighting style, and if I remember correctly the average damage increase over the long term isn't very much. It definitely helps avoid that sinking feeling when you roll low on a crit though :) The math is going to be different for 1d12 vs 2d6 weapons, but I can't remember how big a difference. But thematically, sword seems much more appropriate for a Samurai than borrowing the Barbarian's Greataxe :)
Great Weapon fighting is tricky. Over time it only increases your average damage for the weapon rolls by a small amount. However, in an instance when you roll a one or two, it can up your damage a lot. So while it's not great over the course of a campaign but it's pretty good for an individual attack.
As for samurai, great weapon master is great. You have an on demand way to gain advantage. When you use it you can also take the -5 attack, +10 damage. Later you can forgo advantage to just attack again. There is no official Katana in the game. The DMG suggests you use a 1d10 for damage but honestly you can flavor whatever weapon you want to be a katana.
I've done some rough math on the Great Weapon Fighting style, and if I remember correctly the average damage increase over the long term isn't very much.
There is no official Katana in the game. The DMG suggests you use a 1d10 for damage but honestly you can flavor whatever weapon you want to be a katana.
DMG chapter 2 has a section on wuxia weapon names. Katanas are treated as longswords (and naginatas are glaives, as DxJxC points out.)
I've done some rough math on the Great Weapon Fighting style, and if I remember correctly the average damage increase over the long term isn't very much.
There is no official Katana in the game. The DMG suggests you use a 1d10 for damage but honestly you can flavor whatever weapon you want to be a katana.
DMG chapter 2 has a section on wuxia weapon names. Katanas are treated as longswords (and naginatas are glaives, as DxJxC points out.)
That's what I meant. That being said, and what I intended with my comment, is that it changes literally nothing from a balance or mechanics standpoint to just flavor the katana after the greatsword instead of the longsword. The only thing it might change is the players enjoyment for getting to use the iconic katana.
There's a significant difference in practicality in my opinion. A longsword is something you can wear around town all day. A greatsword or glaive is a battlefield weapon that can't be sheathed.
There's a significant difference in practicality in my opinion. A longsword is something you can wear around town all day. A greatsword or glaive is a battlefield weapon that can't be sheathed.
They can be...
I'm pretty sure that Fighters get more swings than any other class (generally speaking).
I have a friend that chose the Samurai subclass and is struggling to enjoy the choice. Human 4th level Fighter(Samurai), 18 Str, 18 Con 14 Dex with Sentinel Feat and Great Weapon Fighting Style. He is using a Katana (Long Sword) two handed.
Where should he go from here or is the subclass a waste of time?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
What does he not like about it? Also, what is his Wisdom, as that's a big thing for Samurai? Samurai is a more roleplay oriented Subclass as far as Fighter subclasses go; the Insight or Persuasion proficiency you can take when choosing the class goes a long way towards that, and at level 7 they they gain an extra bonus to Persuasion checks equal to their Wisdom modifier. If he doesn't have Persuasion proficiency, it's a huge waste.
If he just wants to smash things, it's not the best choice, but does have some potential. Fighting Spirit is pretty decent, but doesn't fully shine until they start getting Extra attacks (level 5, 11 and 20). This is particularly potent when combined with Action Surge. Use Fighting Spirit to gain Advantage on ALL attacks for the rest of your turn, make your attack(s) (again, Extra attack will help a lot) and then use Action Surge to make all your attacks again. At his next level (5) when he gets Extra Attack, this will allow him to make 4 attacks with Advantage in one turn, which is pretty exceptional.
Using a Longsword in two hands is also hugely limiting him, if he went with the Great Weapon Fighting Style. Since the GWF style allows you to reroll a 1 or 2 on any damage die, he'd much better off using a Greatsword or Maul, as they both have 2 damage die instead of 1 like longswords. I don't know the exact math, but this significantly increases his average damage per attack. He can flavor it as an Odachi to fit with the Samurai feel.
Addition: Sentinel honestly isn't the best feat for a Samurai. As mentioned, he should use a Greatsword, and Sentinel is best with a Glaive. Also, Fighting Spirit only lasts until the end of the Samurai's turn. If it was until their next turn or until the end of the round, it would be a lot more potent as they could have Advantage on their Attacks of Opportunity.
Great Weapon Master would be much better; if he kills someone with an attack or scores a crit, he gets another attack
which will also benefit from the Advantage of Fighting Spirit.The second part of GWM is "Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage." The Advantage gained from Fighting Spirit would offset the -5 penalty, and this could be done on every one of the Samurais attacks; that's a tonne of damage potential all told, with Action Surge and Fighting Spirit.
Now I wanna play a Samurai.
Thanks for the response.
I don't remember the exact Wis and Cha scores but I know they are lower than 13.
I think the odachi is a good idea and I am not sure why he didn't go that route in the first place. He is mostly wanting to up his damage and is a little jealous of the Barbarian in the group.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I edited my response with an addition which would make him much more potent.
No problem. I haven't thought much on Samurais before so this is very interesting to me.
Charisma honestly doesn't matter for a Samurai. It can increase their Persuasion even more, but sinking points into Charisma is a big expense for just a bit of an addition since they also get to add their Wisdom. Insight is Wisdom based, so if they have Proficiency in Insight and Persuasion and have decent Wisdom, they'll be great at both of them.
Also he has fairly high Dexterity, which - since Fighters can equip Heavy Armor - isn't useful for him unless for some reason he really likes Dexterity skills like Acrobatics. If he does, he's playing the wrong class. If possible, he should drop his Dex and increase his Wis. Charisma really should only be 8 or 10, Dexterity can also be 8.
The more I think about it the more I realize just how potent Samurai can be, but only if it's built in a specific way.
Oof, I am wrong about something actually. The extra possible attack from GWM is a bonus action, so could not be used in conjunction with Fighting Spirit. Still, this gives him the ability to get more attacks when he doesn't use/have Fighting Spirit.
Just wanna add up the damage potential.
2d6+4 is an average of 10 damage. GWF Style increases this, I think by +2 per die but let's say +1 to be safe; that's an average of 12 damage per attack. With Extra Attack next level, that's 24 average damage per turn. Action Surge increases this to 48 damage across 4 attacks. GWM's low-acc-high-dmg attack increases this to 22 average damage per attack, or 88 damage across 4 attacks, with all those attacks being able to get Advantage from Fighting Spirit. At level 5, that's absolutely insane damage potential from a single turn.
I have passed this on. Now we just need to get the DM to allow the changes to his character lol.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Mechanically, the Samurai subclass doesn't have a lot of flashy tricks. Fighting Spirit essentially gives you a few turns a day where you can go HAM on the bad guys. Pair it with your Action Surge for double the attacks, and pair the Advantage with either Sharpshooter & a bow, or Great Weapon Master and a Heavy weapon and you can really bring the pain. And free proficiency in Wisdom saving throws? AWESOME. Take the Resilient(Dex) feat at some point and you can be proficient in all three of the major saves.
Fighters in general have lots of roleplay potential precisely because they're such a nonspecific class. The backstory potential is wide open. And as for the Samurai, You don't have to adhere to a traditional Japanese-flavor backstory & personality, the core of the Samurai class is a Fighter with increased diplomatic skill and a deep strength of willpower. That can be manifested as an almost Paladin-like devotion to a cause, or maybe a Monk-like dedication to self-improvement. Or maybe it's just ruthless discipline developed through years of intense martial training.
The next time I get around to playing an archer I think I'm gonna make him a Samurai so I can go supernova with Sharpshooter. Just need to come up with a good story for him :)
I've done some rough math on the Great Weapon Fighting style, and if I remember correctly the average damage increase over the long term isn't very much. It definitely helps avoid that sinking feeling when you roll low on a crit though :) The math is going to be different for 1d12 vs 2d6 weapons, but I can't remember how big a difference. But thematically, sword seems much more appropriate for a Samurai than borrowing the Barbarian's Greataxe :)
Great Weapon fighting is tricky. Over time it only increases your average damage for the weapon rolls by a small amount. However, in an instance when you roll a one or two, it can up your damage a lot. So while it's not great over the course of a campaign but it's pretty good for an individual attack.
As for samurai, great weapon master is great. You have an on demand way to gain advantage. When you use it you can also take the -5 attack, +10 damage. Later you can forgo advantage to just attack again. There is no official Katana in the game. The DMG suggests you use a 1d10 for damage but honestly you can flavor whatever weapon you want to be a katana.
You can use a glaive and call it a naginata.
On a greatsword, it makes the average roll go up from 7 to 8.33 and gives them a 96.3% chance to roll at least a 5. That means you're rarely looking at less than 8 damage per hit when you factor in a starting strength modifier of +3.
DMG chapter 2 has a section on wuxia weapon names. Katanas are treated as longswords (and naginatas are glaives, as DxJxC points out.)
The Forum Infestation (TM)
At this point his plan is to pick up a Nodachi (Great Sword) or Naginata (Glaive) and wait till 6th level to pick up the Great Weapon Master feat.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
That's what I meant. That being said, and what I intended with my comment, is that it changes literally nothing from a balance or mechanics standpoint to just flavor the katana after the greatsword instead of the longsword. The only thing it might change is the players enjoyment for getting to use the iconic katana.
There's a significant difference in practicality in my opinion. A longsword is something you can wear around town all day. A greatsword or glaive is a battlefield weapon that can't be sheathed.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
They can be...
I'm pretty sure that Fighters get more swings than any other class (generally speaking).
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