As a DM I'd say caltrops don't work in a jungle. Unless you're assuming all different environments are actually not different. ...or you're in a part of a jungle where the ground is flat and hard without many layers of leaves, branches, or soft and highly degraded plant material....so in a part of the jungle that isn't jungle.
Caltrops would work in a jungle. Pointy things are pointy even if they are on dirt or grass.
Ball bearings do require a flat surface though.
as someone who's stepped on many nails and thorns with some going clear up into my foot for at least 1 hp of damage....you need 3 things for a caltrop to cause damage...a foot, a pointy thing, and a hard surface for the caltrop to rest on. I'm saying you probably won't have much of a hard surface on most jungle floors. Do a backyard experiment. Sharpen a couple metal jacks and throw them into your lawn and jump on them...see if they go through your shoe....I highly suspect they'll just sink into the dirt - you'll be fine and can continue your adventure to the other side of the lawn.
Ehhh, I've had issues with a particularly nasty weed in my area with thorned seeds that form like caltrops, and I can confirm those ****ers will lodge themselves in my shoe if I go walking through dirt in areas where they grow...
Go put a piece of gravel on your lawn and step on it barefoot. Lemme know if it just sank into the lawn or your foot. That should be a close approximation for a sharpened piece of metal designed to cut through the tough leather soles of boots. At least close enough for the sake of this discussion.
Go put a piece of gravel on your lawn and step on it barefoot. Lemme know if it just sank into the lawn or your foot. That should be a close approximation for a sharpened piece of metal designed to cut through the tough leather soles of boots. At least close enough for the sake of this discussion.
haha, into the lawn...and I suspect i actually know what i'm talking about on this one. i go barefoot most of the summer when i'm around the house, grew up in the country with a gravel driveway...and I was an amateur compared to my dad. his feet were like leather (which i suspect is probably the way MOST adventurer's feet would be - especially when you consider most Backgrounds include cloth wrappings for shoes). gravel's nothing btw....the real test is a freshly mown hayfield...which doesn't sound like much, but is WAY more painful than a gravel driveway and is about one step down from broken glass...its like walking on a bed of vertical-standing toothpicks.
my point is, if you want to work on an immersive environment, you should consider the environment. tools designed for a dungeon floor just might not make sense at all in a jungle.
and having said all that...i suppose as a DM i'll probably start asking what type of footwear the adventurer has when it comes to caltrops. if they have the starting cloth wrappings i suppose caltrop damage in a jungle makes sense....and auto max damage in a dungeon.
yeah, usually. unless of course they roll a 1 on the DEX check which means they'll likely do a face-plant on the ground. Nothing worse than getting a caltrop in your eye.
The idea that certain tools just flat-out stop working period in a given type of terrain, as if physics just starts ignoring the item in question, bothers me. A DM who says "your caltrops are useless in the jungle. Don't even bring them, I won't adjudicate them" is a DM that's making the wrong statements.
Just as a player, within ninety seconds of thinking of the problem? Embed your caltrops in pieces of tree bark, then spend ten minutes camouflaging the trapped bits of bark in the jungle floor. The bark gives the caltrops enough solid surface to do their work, if you can't find tree bark in a jungle you need to stop adventuring, and even a total city slicker can at least try to disguise a simple trap like this. A Survival check to set the Perception DC required for a critter to see the trap; advantage on the check for rangers, druids, or other characters deeply familiar with wild terrain, disadvantage for aforementioned city slickers.
Boom - caltrops in a jungle. Takes some set-up, and thus some planning and preparation, but it's totally doable.
All of the “As a person with feet, trust me that caltrops...” hot takes need to stop. Caltrops have a game effect. If the DM wants to say that effect doesn’t work in such and such scenario, fine, but come on people.
I think this talk about caltrops not working on loose dirt really underestimates how big a caltrop would be. They're not the size of jacks. Remember that 20 of them occupy a five foot square. Each caltrop has at least 4 blades and each blade is several inches long. If thrown onto loose earth two blades may bury themselves completely but then two blades at least 3 inches long are sticking out.
Edit: Okay, I looked into it further... Caltrops are actually designed so that no matter how they're dropped 3 points are on the ground and one point is pointed upward (the 4-sided die comparisons are apt), and were specifically designed to be used outdoors as defense against chariots. So they'll work fine in a forest environment... even if all three of the lower points sink into the ground they'll brace the 4th point in a manner that makes it just as deadly.
I agree with Chicken_Champ. This is an item in a game. An item that has mechanics/rules around it, which say nothing about them not working on certain types of flooring.
Go put a piece of gravel on your lawn and step on it barefoot. Lemme know if it just sank into the lawn or your foot. That should be a close approximation for a sharpened piece of metal designed to cut through the tough leather soles of boots. At least close enough for the sake of this discussion.
haha, into the lawn...and I suspect i actually know what i'm talking about on this one. i go barefoot most of the summer when i'm around the house, grew up in the country with a gravel driveway...and I was an amateur compared to my dad. his feet were like leather (which i suspect is probably the way MOST adventurer's feet would be - especially when you consider most Backgrounds include cloth wrappings for shoes). gravel's nothing btw....the real test is a freshly mown hayfield...which doesn't sound like much, but is WAY more painful than a gravel driveway and is about one step down from broken glass...its like walking on a bed of vertical-standing toothpicks.
my point is, if you want to work on an immersive environment, you should consider the environment. tools designed for a dungeon floor just might not make sense at all in a jungle.
and having said all that...i suppose as a DM i'll probably start asking what type of footwear the adventurer has when it comes to caltrops. if they have the starting cloth wrappings i suppose caltrop damage in a jungle makes sense....and auto max damage in a dungeon.
I go barefoot all year round unless there’s snow on the ground I have both a gravel driveway and a gravel walkway. My feet are like leather (I actually carve the calluses of with a knife once/month, it drives my wife crazy) and I can tell you that walking on the drive/walkway is no big deal because my weight gets distributed across many points (like someone who can lay on a bed of nails) but if my foot lands on one large solitary piece of gravel in the middle of my lawn that effing hurts. A fresh mown hayfield is no joke either, but that one piece of gravel in the middle of the lawn hurts way worse.
I agree with your take on an immersive environment, I just disagree with your assessment of how ineffective caltrops would be on soft ground for one major reason.
A caltrop is specifically designed to put maximum pressure on a single point sticking straight up (like stepping on a framing nail), but to disperse the weight of the caltrop across a wider area (like a snow shoe). By its very design it is going to stab up into the foot with more pressure (from the weight of the person) on a smaller point, and press down into the ground with less pressure spread out over literally 3 times as many points.
Actually, I was thinking that dropping caltrops in high traffic areas of a jungle (walking path, intersection where pack animals roam, trails) might be useful for slowing down random troops or entities. Also, it's a Plan B, in case I'm out of spikes or can't make enough for the bottom of a pit hidden in dense brush.
I'm thinking more along the lines of slowing down enemies and/or creating advantage situations for other party members, moreso than damage dealing in the jungle. Grasslands/Dungeons/Indoors, I'd take the damage dealing options.
Rangers don't Wild Shape, which was why I went Druid. Originally, I had thought that he would be a nomad travelling from town to town healing the land after they had been raided. Use Plant Growth and help farmers get the supplies going again, etc.
Caltrops were mainly an anti-cavalry weapon. The way they're designed they spread their weight across the ground so they don't get pushed in, and the point that is strait up goes into a foot. I'd rule the ground would have to be extremely boggy for them not to pierce a foot. Given that they're essentially a nail point, leather soles aren't going to do much to stop that from puncturing.
Also in a jungle they'd be extremely difficult to spot, requiring a fairly decent perception check, unless they were placed on a packed dirt surface. I'd even go so far as to impose disadvantage on any dexterity saves or checks on someone who had stepped on one. (If their feet were involved.) Its one thing for a nail to go into the ball or heel, but if it went into the arch I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
Punji sticks are a thing. You don't exactly carry around bags of punji sticks, but I'd argue that if you have a spare hour, you could set up punji sticks in a 'Jungle' tile/Standard Combat Space and they'd act the same as caltrops. Plus side, you can source the sticks from materials local to the area and don't need to carry them around with you.
think that's a spiked pit trap
Punji are distinctly different as the sticks are covered in human fecal matter, which cause sepsis and other problems, once they get into an open flesh would.
and essentially (in D&D) would be a DoT effect, granted a longer period of time with a death clock if not properly cleaned/lesser restoration.
Now I have to research "Punji Sticks". lol. A couple of notes : Pits/Traps/Caltrops, etc would always be done in advance of a known attack or administered before rests. Mainly as a "protection" area around where we'll be.
Main areas of interest : * Ways to utilize simple equipment to cause damage when foes fail their checks. * Spikes vs. Caltrops vs. Punji vs. Poison vs. ways to get additional damage BEFORE combat ensues.
The idea is for the Druid to be the party "Easy" button and make battles shorter and easier. Dealing damage is nice, but causing foes to go prone or at a disadvantage are just as nice.
Caltrops are mostly valuable because you an just throw a bunch of them on the ground as an action without having to do any setup ahead of time. If you're running down a hallway and you're in the back of your group, you can slow down any pursuers... either by reducing their top speed, or at least forcing them to use some of their movement to get around the caltrops.
Spikes are good for dealing damage, especially if you can lace them with poison somehow. But they need to be installed in some way... it's not something you can just drop in a hole. You either need to install them in a hole to be used as a spike trap, or they need to be like... secured to a wall where you have some means of shoving targets into them. If you've got hours to prepare setting up spike traps all over would be worth the effort... This would be when you'd be able to set things up to deal some serious damage with traps. If you've only got minutes it might be worth it to use Mold Earth and other spells to set up holes and rough terrain, or even build coverage for your group to take advantage of and in general customize the battlefield to your advantage. This would be more about setting up defenses... you won't likely be able to deal serious damage through traps, but you can build trenches and such that will slow down your opponents and make it take longer to get to you. And if you've just got a turn or two before opponents get there it would be good to toss a few hail mary caltrops in choke points and hitting a spell that can create as much protection or difficult terrain as possible in one action before opponents get to you.
as someone who's stepped on many nails and thorns with some going clear up into my foot for at least 1 hp of damage....you need 3 things for a caltrop to cause damage...a foot, a pointy thing, and a hard surface for the caltrop to rest on. I'm saying you probably won't have much of a hard surface on most jungle floors. Do a backyard experiment. Sharpen a couple metal jacks and throw them into your lawn and jump on them...see if they go through your shoe....I highly suspect they'll just sink into the dirt - you'll be fine and can continue your adventure to the other side of the lawn.
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Ehhh, I've had issues with a particularly nasty weed in my area with thorned seeds that form like caltrops, and I can confirm those ****ers will lodge themselves in my shoe if I go walking through dirt in areas where they grow...
Go put a piece of gravel on your lawn and step on it barefoot. Lemme know if it just sank into the lawn or your foot. That should be a close approximation for a sharpened piece of metal designed to cut through the tough leather soles of boots. At least close enough for the sake of this discussion.
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I’d love it if one of my players attempted to handle a bag of pointy poisoned caltrops...
haha, into the lawn...and I suspect i actually know what i'm talking about on this one. i go barefoot most of the summer when i'm around the house, grew up in the country with a gravel driveway...and I was an amateur compared to my dad. his feet were like leather (which i suspect is probably the way MOST adventurer's feet would be - especially when you consider most Backgrounds include cloth wrappings for shoes). gravel's nothing btw....the real test is a freshly mown hayfield...which doesn't sound like much, but is WAY more painful than a gravel driveway and is about one step down from broken glass...its like walking on a bed of vertical-standing toothpicks.
my point is, if you want to work on an immersive environment, you should consider the environment. tools designed for a dungeon floor just might not make sense at all in a jungle.
and having said all that...i suppose as a DM i'll probably start asking what type of footwear the adventurer has when it comes to caltrops. if they have the starting cloth wrappings i suppose caltrop damage in a jungle makes sense....and auto max damage in a dungeon.
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caltrops and ball bearings are literally the "home alone" weapons of dnd
So.... 1 damage?
yeah, usually. unless of course they roll a 1 on the DEX check which means they'll likely do a face-plant on the ground. Nothing worse than getting a caltrop in your eye.
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The idea that certain tools just flat-out stop working period in a given type of terrain, as if physics just starts ignoring the item in question, bothers me. A DM who says "your caltrops are useless in the jungle. Don't even bring them, I won't adjudicate them" is a DM that's making the wrong statements.
Just as a player, within ninety seconds of thinking of the problem? Embed your caltrops in pieces of tree bark, then spend ten minutes camouflaging the trapped bits of bark in the jungle floor. The bark gives the caltrops enough solid surface to do their work, if you can't find tree bark in a jungle you need to stop adventuring, and even a total city slicker can at least try to disguise a simple trap like this. A Survival check to set the Perception DC required for a critter to see the trap; advantage on the check for rangers, druids, or other characters deeply familiar with wild terrain, disadvantage for aforementioned city slickers.
Boom - caltrops in a jungle. Takes some set-up, and thus some planning and preparation, but it's totally doable.
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All of the “As a person with feet, trust me that caltrops...” hot takes need to stop. Caltrops have a game effect. If the DM wants to say that effect doesn’t work in such and such scenario, fine, but come on people.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I think this talk about caltrops not working on loose dirt really underestimates how big a caltrop would be. They're not the size of jacks. Remember that 20 of them occupy a five foot square. Each caltrop has at least 4 blades and each blade is several inches long. If thrown onto loose earth two blades may bury themselves completely but then two blades at least 3 inches long are sticking out.
Edit: Okay, I looked into it further... Caltrops are actually designed so that no matter how they're dropped 3 points are on the ground and one point is pointed upward (the 4-sided die comparisons are apt), and were specifically designed to be used outdoors as defense against chariots. So they'll work fine in a forest environment... even if all three of the lower points sink into the ground they'll brace the 4th point in a manner that makes it just as deadly.
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I agree with Chicken_Champ. This is an item in a game. An item that has mechanics/rules around it, which say nothing about them not working on certain types of flooring.
I go barefoot all year round unless there’s snow on the ground I have both a gravel driveway and a gravel walkway. My feet are like leather (I actually carve the calluses of with a knife once/month, it drives my wife crazy) and I can tell you that walking on the drive/walkway is no big deal because my weight gets distributed across many points (like someone who can lay on a bed of nails) but if my foot lands on one large solitary piece of gravel in the middle of my lawn that effing hurts. A fresh mown hayfield is no joke either, but that one piece of gravel in the middle of the lawn hurts way worse.
I agree with your take on an immersive environment, I just disagree with your assessment of how ineffective caltrops would be on soft ground for one major reason.
A caltrop is specifically designed to put maximum pressure on a single point sticking straight up (like stepping on a framing nail), but to disperse the weight of the caltrop across a wider area (like a snow shoe). By its very design it is going to stab up into the foot with more pressure (from the weight of the person) on a smaller point, and press down into the ground with less pressure spread out over literally 3 times as many points.
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Actually, I was thinking that dropping caltrops in high traffic areas of a jungle (walking path, intersection where pack animals roam, trails) might be useful for slowing down random troops or entities. Also, it's a Plan B, in case I'm out of spikes or can't make enough for the bottom of a pit hidden in dense brush.
I'm thinking more along the lines of slowing down enemies and/or creating advantage situations for other party members, moreso than damage dealing in the jungle. Grasslands/Dungeons/Indoors, I'd take the damage dealing options.
Rangers don't Wild Shape, which was why I went Druid. Originally, I had thought that he would be a nomad travelling from town to town healing the land after they had been raided. Use Plant Growth and help farmers get the supplies going again, etc.
It turned into Rambo. lol.
Caltrops were mainly an anti-cavalry weapon. The way they're designed they spread their weight across the ground so they don't get pushed in, and the point that is strait up goes into a foot. I'd rule the ground would have to be extremely boggy for them not to pierce a foot. Given that they're essentially a nail point, leather soles aren't going to do much to stop that from puncturing.
Also in a jungle they'd be extremely difficult to spot, requiring a fairly decent perception check, unless they were placed on a packed dirt surface. I'd even go so far as to impose disadvantage on any dexterity saves or checks on someone who had stepped on one. (If their feet were involved.) Its one thing for a nail to go into the ball or heel, but if it went into the arch I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
This is now canon at my table. :) Any time a player spreads caltrops, they throw an actual bag of d4s around the room for monsters to step on.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Punji are distinctly different as the sticks are covered in human fecal matter, which cause sepsis and other problems, once they get into an open flesh would.
and essentially (in D&D) would be a DoT effect, granted a longer period of time with a death clock if not properly cleaned/lesser restoration.
Now I have to research "Punji Sticks". lol.
A couple of notes :
Pits/Traps/Caltrops, etc would always be done in advance of a known attack or administered before rests. Mainly as a "protection" area around where we'll be.
Main areas of interest :
* Ways to utilize simple equipment to cause damage when foes fail their checks.
* Spikes vs. Caltrops vs. Punji vs. Poison vs. ways to get additional damage BEFORE combat ensues.
The idea is for the Druid to be the party "Easy" button and make battles shorter and easier.
Dealing damage is nice, but causing foes to go prone or at a disadvantage are just as nice.
Caltrops are mostly valuable because you an just throw a bunch of them on the ground as an action without having to do any setup ahead of time. If you're running down a hallway and you're in the back of your group, you can slow down any pursuers... either by reducing their top speed, or at least forcing them to use some of their movement to get around the caltrops.
Spikes are good for dealing damage, especially if you can lace them with poison somehow. But they need to be installed in some way... it's not something you can just drop in a hole. You either need to install them in a hole to be used as a spike trap, or they need to be like... secured to a wall where you have some means of shoving targets into them. If you've got hours to prepare setting up spike traps all over would be worth the effort... This would be when you'd be able to set things up to deal some serious damage with traps. If you've only got minutes it might be worth it to use Mold Earth and other spells to set up holes and rough terrain, or even build coverage for your group to take advantage of and in general customize the battlefield to your advantage. This would be more about setting up defenses... you won't likely be able to deal serious damage through traps, but you can build trenches and such that will slow down your opponents and make it take longer to get to you. And if you've just got a turn or two before opponents get there it would be good to toss a few hail mary caltrops in choke points and hitting a spell that can create as much protection or difficult terrain as possible in one action before opponents get to you.
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Something I'm wondering about.
Why is a Druid using caltrops when they have access to the Spike Growth spell? Is the OP still 1st/2nd level? This will pass quickly.
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