Not really game breaking at all, primarily when you get into higher tier 2 and up. Almost everything of fiend, undead, and others are immune to poison so purple worm is very much hit or miss, and itd take upwards of 2 turns to set up. Minor conjuration then fast hands to apply to a dagger (if available) then next turn catapault dagger or atk with it normally. Most other poisons have a very low dc so a lot of enemies will pass the save easily. The bombs and grenades will have some impact (pun intended) depending. The most damaging being frag grenade at 5d6, but even that becomes moot if something has higher dex. Even if not though avg of 5d6 is about i think 15-18? In tier 2 and above that isnt much dmg at all. So i highly doubt unless its a group of goblins that you will be soloing much. NOW with that said, tacking into this more wizard levels to offset the lower dmg number will be your main goto later on. You could even easily say that the player hasnt seen purple worm poison yet. Have that be a build up of things they can do and see. It gives them and the dm a much bigger pool to choose from. That way the dm could come up with something to reward the player with while not necessarily cheapening nor questioning if they would want it due to attunement slots left. There is a lot of play withs in the idea.
Want to note that when I made this thread I meant this as more of a theorycrafting or silly oneshot kind of thing, instead of using it in a real campaign to the other players detriment. I also wrote the explanation for having it written into the backstory, to avoid people saying they wouldn't allow this in their campaigns which somewhat backfired...
It really would be interesting if the dm gave the wizard access to higher tier poisons as the campaigns went on. Like each time magic items are given there is a new poison for the wizard instead of a magic item.
Not really game breaking at all, primarily when you get into higher tier 2 and up.
I haven't seen it but maybe somebody else has experienced a PC doing multiple DC19 save vs 12d6 attacks at lvl 3.
Thats gonna take like 3 turns to even inflict a dc19 if only level 3. Poisoner feat wouldnt be worth it to take early since you're gonna be going thief with fast hands soon. Even if you did that is taking 2 turns to make it work with purple worm, which is also doubtful if youve seen it by then. The cheap version uses 3 thief and 2 conj. my preferred starts you at 1 art 3 rouge and 2 conj. So thatd be level 6. You would'nt even use purple worm much unless you had it pre conj before battle since itd take a long time to set up. I can understand the concern though 100%. It just would take a good bit to set up for even purple worm. I could see Malice being a good poison to use though since that can be catapulted itself for inhaled effect.
Not really game breaking at all, primarily when you get into higher tier 2 and up.
I haven't seen it but maybe somebody else has experienced a PC doing multiple DC19 save vs 12d6 attacks at lvl 3.
Thats gonna take like 3 turns to even inflict a dc19 if only level 3. Poisoner feat wouldnt be worth it to take early since you're gonna be going thief with fast hands soon. Even if you did that is taking 2 turns to make it work with purple worm, which is also doubtful if youve seen it by then. The cheap version uses 3 thief and 2 conj. my preferred starts you at 1 art 3 rouge and 2 conj. So thatd be level 6. You would'nt even use purple worm much unless you had it pre conj before battle since itd take a long time to set up. I can understand the concern though 100%. It just would take a good bit to set up for even purple worm. I could see Malice being a good poison to use though since that can be catapulted itself for inhaled effect.
Minor Conjuration
Starting at 2nd level when you select this school, you can use your action to conjure up an inanimate object in your hand or on the ground in an unoccupied space that you can see within 10 feet of you. This object can be no larger than 3 feet on a side and weigh no more than 10 pounds, and its form must be that of a nonmagical object that you have seen. The object is visibly magical, radiating dim light out to 5 feet.
The object disappears after 1 hour,when you use this feature again, or if it takes or deals any damage
------------
Injury. Injury poison can be applied to weapons, ammunition, trap components, and other objects that deal piercing or slashing damage and remains potent until delivered through a wound or washed off.
---------
It takes 1 action to create 10 lbs of poison. The poison exists for 1 hour. You can coat your weapons with it and it stays on your weapon until a wound is caused or it is washed off. That gives you an hour worth of exploration to use. Then when it expires, just do it again. Using a light bladed weapon in each hand makes for possible two hits in one round.
Not seeing your "needs three turns to set up".
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Nobody has suggested the Wizard be able to conjure gallons of poison as their “object,” just the single weapon (or three ammunition) doses that are listed as equipment. Feels a little disingenuous to argue against those that would allow the creation of reasonable doses with the example of unreasonable barrels of poison no one is seeking to conjure.
I was referring to doing it right at the start of combat and not having it preset as you mentioned. Even preset fully though you could only hit once before it all disappeared since minor con says if it deals dmg then it disappears. So one coated would deal the dmg then the other would lose it. Also (at least on my build) you would have a lower dex score so only like a 14. I could see a primary theif with con 2 being starting out being ready with that 12d6 so that could be also a feasible strat.
Your way is fantastic though to be honest. I just havent encountered many things that allow poison to go through very often, nor could I see purple worm given out to see early. However youre right if seen then at lvl 2 nothing stops you from popping 12d6 and at that point soloing things. That dmg and power does drop off later levels though. So as a dm id say if that early then you def havent seen something like that.
I do have to say though as a side note, I am truly loving this thread. It has given me so many ideas of improving this pc and working on what to make. It also has had me working on the rules and the way to even make this feasible, much less half decent. So thank you everyone helping make this thread great so far! Special thanks to chicken_champ for helping me link and the help on item ideas.
I'm pretty sure I had read tweets/subreadits/other threads at the time that supported my statements about RAI and consensus, but I don't remember any more as that was 20 months ago.
I still maintain that dealing 12d6 damage is way beyond what us intended for a level 2 ability.
I'm pretty sure I had read tweets/subreadits/other threads at the time that supported my statements about RAI and consensus, but I don't remember any more as that was 20 months ago.
I still maintain that dealing 12d6 damage is way beyond what us intended for a level 2 ability.
JC himself and the sage advice would seem to contradict that thought though. There might be a lot of people who think otherwise and try to make it fact, but RAW and RAI via JC and sage advice confirm it all does work.
Yes dealing 12d6 (even more factoring in the weapon dmg too) is very very high for a lvl 2, legally do able, but still very high. It also is very likely the dm would just say you wouldnt have seen that one (granted for how OP pointed out if it was acceptable of your backstory then thats that).
Also thank you Wysperra. I'll be honest, as simple of the setup of the poison is, I had been focusing a lot more on the status effects and the bombs for AOE. Sometimes we miss the simple most obvious things haha.
I'm pretty sure I had read tweets/subreadits/other threads at the time that supported my statements about RAI and consensus, but I don't remember any more as that was 20 months ago.
I still maintain that dealing 12d6 damage is way beyond what us intended for a level 2 ability.
JC himself and the sage advice would seem to contradict that thought though. There might be a lot of people who think otherwise and try to make it fact, but RAW and RAI via JC and sage advice confirm it all does work.
The only sage advice I can find about minor conjuration (official or otherwise) is that it can't be larger than 3 feet, has a gp value of 0, and can't be something you haven't seen. Nothing about it being able to separated into multiple parts working. If there is a JC advice specifically about this as you say, please link it.
The info provided in one of my previous posts addresses that. A link by JC concerning a multipart item (his example was a skateboard, which is clearly multiple parts). The first piece of info provided was sage advice compendium with the example of a book and its writing.
The info provided in one of my previous posts addresses that. A link by JC concerning a multipart item (his example was a skateboard, which is clearly multiple parts). The first piece of info provided was sage advice compendium with the example of a book and its writing.
It's multiple parts that are not separated. As long as you keep the parts together it's fine, but if you pull the wheels off the entire thing disappears. In any case that doesn't really matter for poison because if it being separated doesn't cause it to poof, it's still one item and when it deals damage all of it disappears.
There are probably more straightforward ways to describe that than “takes damage”, if maintaining cohesion was needed. Not a lot of equipment in 5E is designed to separate, but if you couldn’t conjure a healers kit or whatever, you think they’d say that more clearly.
The game's rules arguably treat liquids as non-objects and attempting to rule otherwise very often leads to headaches like this. The DMG says objects are discrete and all of the examples given are solids. A volume of liquid isn't a discrete thing because it has no definite shape and can easily be separated into multiple smaller volumes. There's also no way to meaningfully damage a liquid.
The game's rules arguably treat liquids as non-objects and attempting to rule otherwise very often leads to headaches like this. The DMG says objects are discrete and all of the examples given are solids. A volume of liquid isn't a discrete thing because it has no definite shape and can easily be separated into multiple smaller volumes. There's also no way to meaningfully damage a liquid.
It in no place says liquids are not objects in that entire explanation. It actually even gives ice as one "solid"example. The reason it gives solid item listed is that when you hit things they usually are solid or at least a type of solid form. You could feasibly go and punch a lake buuuut wouldnt do much, as you stated. However trying to state bottled liquids are not objects seems fundamentally incorrect. Also i dont understand how stating a vial of poison is not a discrete thing because it has no definitive shape. That makes no sense to me. Being able to conjure these poisons or bombs or skateboards even is well within RAW.
But at the end of however you want to view it, it is upto the DM to make the call. If they say it must be solid the a frozen vial of poison it shall be and save the bombs for the combat.
It in no place says liquids are not objects in that entire explanation. It actually even gives ice as one "solid"example.
Liquids and gases are not discrete. Ice is in fact a solid.
You could feasibly go and punch a lake buuuut wouldnt do much, as you stated. However trying to state bottled liquids are not objects seems fundamentally incorrect. Being able to conjure these poisons or bombs or skateboards even is well within RAW.
Skateboards, sure. It's 1 discrete item. The other two, not so much. Either I'm right and the poison is not an object, or you're right and it is, but then you have an object inside another object. But Minor Conjuration only gives you one object, and you can't bypass that by summoning a container full of other stuff (liquid or not). And even then, you'd still have to define what it means for a liquid to take damage, because there's literally no rules in the game for that.
It in no place says liquids are not objects in that entire explanation. It actually even gives ice as one "solid"example.
Liquids and gases are not discrete. Ice is in fact a solid.
You could feasibly go and punch a lake buuuut wouldnt do much, as you stated. However trying to state bottled liquids are not objects seems fundamentally incorrect. Being able to conjure these poisons or bombs or skateboards even is well within RAW.
Skateboards, sure. It's 1 discrete item. The other two, not so much. Either I'm right and the poison is not an object, or you're right and it is, but then you have an object inside another object. But Minor Conjuration only gives you one object, and you can't bypass that by summoning a container full of other stuff (liquid or not). And even then, you'd still have to define what it means for a liquid to take damage, because there's literally no rules in the game for that.
If you have a puddle of water that would be discrete in that it is seperate from another source of water. A vial of poison itself is one item (game itself in that it is obtainable and called a specific thing). This following the same structure of a skateboard since that is multiple objects together, which is agreeable via JC. Those objects being the board, the wheels, berrings, etc. The same rule then should apply. I can see your view point on the liquid (plus I cant find any rules one way or another for 5e concerning it). I dont agree with it, but I can 100% see your viewpoint of the discreteness of liquids. This circumvented using the iced poison mentioned however, which still kinda throws me off since you could feasibly conjure a rat corpse with blood in it since a corpse is considered an object (even fresh corpse) by game rules.
The aspect of bombs, grenades, and the like though would easily match the skateboard model JC put out. They are all multi piece things that if seen and seen how put together could easily copy so long as they were nonmagical upon the viewing. This does change when conjured since minor conjuration turns it "visibly magical", BUT that dynamite was nonmagical when it was first seen being put together (which even I gotta admit that is kinda insane but does help make it viable later game too).
If you have a puddle of water that would be discrete in that it is seperate from another source of water.
You could easily mix the puddle with another source of water if you wanted to. Or subdivide it into arbitrarily many puddles. Or dilute a bit of poison into it. Liquids are clearly not discrete the same way every example of an object in the DMG's rules is discrete. If a puddle is 1 object, you'd be able to summon it with Minor Conjuration and subdivide it into multiple smaller puddles, creating multiple objects in the process. You couldn't do that with a real object like a vase because if you broke off any part of it, that'd constitute damage and it'd disappear.
A vial of poison itself is one item (game itself in that it is obtainable and called a specific thing).
An explorer's pack and various tool sets are also things you can buy that have a specific name collectively. They're still composed of multiple individual objects.
This following the same structure of a skateboard since that is multiple objects together, which is agreeable via JC. Those objects being the board, the wheels, berrings, etc.
Those are parts, not individual objects. There's obviously a difference between an object that has moving parts and a collection of distinct objects. You can't get the wheels off your skateboard without turning it into a broken skateboard. A backpack is a backpack whether it's empty or full of gear. The rules clearly treat articulated items as discrete objects, since things like locks and windows are given as examples.
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I would let my players know that such a think was really unbalancing and ask if they were sure they want to do that.
It has the potential to ruin many a campaign.
Do you let the guy solo kill everything while the party watches?
Would you start throwing more poison resistant/immune creatures at them?
Have the bad guys single target the biggest threat based on reputation?
Have the bad guys copy cat the technique and kill off PCs?
Just let it go until the party gets bored of lack of challenge?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Not really game breaking at all, primarily when you get into higher tier 2 and up. Almost everything of fiend, undead, and others are immune to poison so purple worm is very much hit or miss, and itd take upwards of 2 turns to set up. Minor conjuration then fast hands to apply to a dagger (if available) then next turn catapault dagger or atk with it normally. Most other poisons have a very low dc so a lot of enemies will pass the save easily. The bombs and grenades will have some impact (pun intended) depending. The most damaging being frag grenade at 5d6, but even that becomes moot if something has higher dex. Even if not though avg of 5d6 is about i think 15-18? In tier 2 and above that isnt much dmg at all. So i highly doubt unless its a group of goblins that you will be soloing much. NOW with that said, tacking into this more wizard levels to offset the lower dmg number will be your main goto later on. You could even easily say that the player hasnt seen purple worm poison yet. Have that be a build up of things they can do and see. It gives them and the dm a much bigger pool to choose from. That way the dm could come up with something to reward the player with while not necessarily cheapening nor questioning if they would want it due to attunement slots left. There is a lot of play withs in the idea.
Want to note that when I made this thread I meant this as more of a theorycrafting or silly oneshot kind of thing, instead of using it in a real campaign to the other players detriment. I also wrote the explanation for having it written into the backstory, to avoid people saying they wouldn't allow this in their campaigns which somewhat backfired...
It really would be interesting if the dm gave the wizard access to higher tier poisons as the campaigns went on. Like each time magic items are given there is a new poison for the wizard instead of a magic item.
When players get creative.
I haven't seen it but maybe somebody else has experienced a PC doing multiple DC19 save vs 12d6 attacks at lvl 3.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Thats gonna take like 3 turns to even inflict a dc19 if only level 3. Poisoner feat wouldnt be worth it to take early since you're gonna be going thief with fast hands soon. Even if you did that is taking 2 turns to make it work with purple worm, which is also doubtful if youve seen it by then. The cheap version uses 3 thief and 2 conj. my preferred starts you at 1 art 3 rouge and 2 conj. So thatd be level 6. You would'nt even use purple worm much unless you had it pre conj before battle since itd take a long time to set up. I can understand the concern though 100%. It just would take a good bit to set up for even purple worm. I could see Malice being a good poison to use though since that can be catapulted itself for inhaled effect.
Minor Conjuration
Starting at 2nd level when you select this school, you can use your action to conjure up an inanimate object in your hand or on the ground in an unoccupied space that you can see within 10 feet of you. This object can be no larger than 3 feet on a side and weigh no more than 10 pounds, and its form must be that of a nonmagical object that you have seen. The object is visibly magical, radiating dim light out to 5 feet.
The object disappears after 1 hour, when you use this feature again, or if it takes or deals any damage
------------
Injury. Injury poison can be applied to weapons, ammunition, trap components, and other objects that deal piercing or slashing damage and remains potent until delivered through a wound or washed off.
---------
It takes 1 action to create 10 lbs of poison. The poison exists for 1 hour. You can coat your weapons with it and it stays on your weapon until a wound is caused or it is washed off. That gives you an hour worth of exploration to use. Then when it expires, just do it again. Using a light bladed weapon in each hand makes for possible two hits in one round.
Not seeing your "needs three turns to set up".
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Nobody has suggested the Wizard be able to conjure gallons of poison as their “object,” just the single weapon (or three ammunition) doses that are listed as equipment. Feels a little disingenuous to argue against those that would allow the creation of reasonable doses with the example of unreasonable barrels of poison no one is seeking to conjure.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I was referring to doing it right at the start of combat and not having it preset as you mentioned. Even preset fully though you could only hit once before it all disappeared since minor con says if it deals dmg then it disappears. So one coated would deal the dmg then the other would lose it. Also (at least on my build) you would have a lower dex score so only like a 14. I could see a primary theif with con 2 being starting out being ready with that 12d6 so that could be also a feasible strat.
Your way is fantastic though to be honest. I just havent encountered many things that allow poison to go through very often, nor could I see purple worm given out to see early. However youre right if seen then at lvl 2 nothing stops you from popping 12d6 and at that point soloing things. That dmg and power does drop off later levels though. So as a dm id say if that early then you def havent seen something like that.
I do have to say though as a side note, I am truly loving this thread. It has given me so many ideas of improving this pc and working on what to make. It also has had me working on the rules and the way to even make this feasible, much less half decent. So thank you everyone helping make this thread great so far! Special thanks to chicken_champ for helping me link and the help on item ideas.
I'm pretty sure I had read tweets/subreadits/other threads at the time that supported my statements about RAI and consensus, but I don't remember any more as that was 20 months ago.
I still maintain that dealing 12d6 damage is way beyond what us intended for a level 2 ability.
JC himself and the sage advice would seem to contradict that thought though. There might be a lot of people who think otherwise and try to make it fact, but RAW and RAI via JC and sage advice confirm it all does work.
Yes dealing 12d6 (even more factoring in the weapon dmg too) is very very high for a lvl 2, legally do able, but still very high. It also is very likely the dm would just say you wouldnt have seen that one (granted for how OP pointed out if it was acceptable of your backstory then thats that).
Also thank you Wysperra. I'll be honest, as simple of the setup of the poison is, I had been focusing a lot more on the status effects and the bombs for AOE. Sometimes we miss the simple most obvious things haha.
The only sage advice I can find about minor conjuration (official or otherwise) is that it can't be larger than 3 feet, has a gp value of 0, and can't be something you haven't seen. Nothing about it being able to separated into multiple parts working. If there is a JC advice specifically about this as you say, please link it.
The info provided in one of my previous posts addresses that. A link by JC concerning a multipart item (his example was a skateboard, which is clearly multiple parts). The first piece of info provided was sage advice compendium with the example of a book and its writing.
It's multiple parts that are not separated. As long as you keep the parts together it's fine, but if you pull the wheels off the entire thing disappears. In any case that doesn't really matter for poison because if it being separated doesn't cause it to poof, it's still one item and when it deals damage all of it disappears.
There are probably more straightforward ways to describe that than “takes damage”, if maintaining cohesion was needed. Not a lot of equipment in 5E is designed to separate, but if you couldn’t conjure a healers kit or whatever, you think they’d say that more clearly.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The game's rules arguably treat liquids as non-objects and attempting to rule otherwise very often leads to headaches like this. The DMG says objects are discrete and all of the examples given are solids. A volume of liquid isn't a discrete thing because it has no definite shape and can easily be separated into multiple smaller volumes. There's also no way to meaningfully damage a liquid.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
It in no place says liquids are not objects in that entire explanation. It actually even gives ice as one "solid"example. The reason it gives solid item listed is that when you hit things they usually are solid or at least a type of solid form. You could feasibly go and punch a lake buuuut wouldnt do much, as you stated. However trying to state bottled liquids are not objects seems fundamentally incorrect. Also i dont understand how stating a vial of poison is not a discrete thing because it has no definitive shape. That makes no sense to me. Being able to conjure these poisons or bombs or skateboards even is well within RAW.
But at the end of however you want to view it, it is upto the DM to make the call. If they say it must be solid the a frozen vial of poison it shall be and save the bombs for the combat.
Liquids and gases are not discrete. Ice is in fact a solid.
Skateboards, sure. It's 1 discrete item. The other two, not so much. Either I'm right and the poison is not an object, or you're right and it is, but then you have an object inside another object. But Minor Conjuration only gives you one object, and you can't bypass that by summoning a container full of other stuff (liquid or not). And even then, you'd still have to define what it means for a liquid to take damage, because there's literally no rules in the game for that.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
If you have a puddle of water that would be discrete in that it is seperate from another source of water. A vial of poison itself is one item (game itself in that it is obtainable and called a specific thing). This following the same structure of a skateboard since that is multiple objects together, which is agreeable via JC. Those objects being the board, the wheels, berrings, etc. The same rule then should apply. I can see your view point on the liquid (plus I cant find any rules one way or another for 5e concerning it). I dont agree with it, but I can 100% see your viewpoint of the discreteness of liquids. This circumvented using the iced poison mentioned however, which still kinda throws me off since you could feasibly conjure a rat corpse with blood in it since a corpse is considered an object (even fresh corpse) by game rules.
The aspect of bombs, grenades, and the like though would easily match the skateboard model JC put out. They are all multi piece things that if seen and seen how put together could easily copy so long as they were nonmagical upon the viewing. This does change when conjured since minor conjuration turns it "visibly magical", BUT that dynamite was nonmagical when it was first seen being put together (which even I gotta admit that is kinda insane but does help make it viable later game too).
You could easily mix the puddle with another source of water if you wanted to. Or subdivide it into arbitrarily many puddles. Or dilute a bit of poison into it. Liquids are clearly not discrete the same way every example of an object in the DMG's rules is discrete. If a puddle is 1 object, you'd be able to summon it with Minor Conjuration and subdivide it into multiple smaller puddles, creating multiple objects in the process. You couldn't do that with a real object like a vase because if you broke off any part of it, that'd constitute damage and it'd disappear.
An explorer's pack and various tool sets are also things you can buy that have a specific name collectively. They're still composed of multiple individual objects.
Those are parts, not individual objects. There's obviously a difference between an object that has moving parts and a collection of distinct objects. You can't get the wheels off your skateboard without turning it into a broken skateboard. A backpack is a backpack whether it's empty or full of gear. The rules clearly treat articulated items as discrete objects, since things like locks and windows are given as examples.
The Forum Infestation (TM)