Ignoring the aspect of the liquids and viewing of packs for the ability (since neither of us will budge on our own interpretation being right), the aspect of multipart is most definitely multi object being used into one item. You could take the wheels off of it. Would it be non functional? Yes. Would it have taken damage? Not necessarily. This is my explanation and pointing out on bombs and other things why they will work with Minor Conjuration.
What is your thoughts on the ability to conjure a fresh rats corpse with the ability?
Yeah, Coder is waving around an inflexible unwritten rule, which isn’t a particularly attractive combination, even before adding the context that it’s one that will only ever come up in play in order to be used to limit a players defining class feature. Hard pass.
conjuring a corpse would be great! The perfect crime, conjure a (unreasonably light) halfling corpse to distract the guard, busying them with investigating a crime that never happened, chaos when the body vanishes… sounds just like the over-complicated Oceans Eleven type schemes players always try to get up to!
The other issue with splitting things up is that the spell creates one object, and if you split it up, it is no longer one object. The ability doesn't specifically say whether a created object must merely be initially a valid object, or if it must remain a valid object (separate from splitting, this could be relevant to, say, creating a rope), but it certainly doesn't allow for multiple objects.
The other issue with splitting things up is that the spell creates one object, and if you split it up, it is no longer one object. The ability doesn't specifically say whether a created object must merely be initially a valid object, or if it must remain a valid object (separate from splitting, this could be relevant to, say, creating a rope), but it certainly doesn't allow for multiple objects.
Yeah, Coder is waving around an inflexible unwritten rule, even before adding the context that it’s one that will only ever come up in play in order to be used to limit a players defining class feature. Hard pass.
If you're going to call me out at least have the courtesy of pointing out where I'm wrong. I'm citing the DMG. There's no other object rules. If you've got some record of the devs saying the feature that gives you temporary fake objects is intended to give you a free pass for 2,000gp consumables despite this tweet, I'd also love to know.
Re: corpses, I'm iffy on the utility of an obviously fake, glowing corpse. If it's not going to hold up to scrutiny anyways, why not use Minor Illusion instead?
It’s hard to cite a passage that disproves “objects cannot be liquid” or “containers of liquid aren’t discrete” or “objects must be indivisible wholes incapable of separation or mixture”, when there is simply no citable source in the DMG or elsewhere for your claims. “It’s unwritten” is sufficient rebuttal to all of the above, I think that was clear enough. It’s unwritten (so not RAW), and sufficiently inflexible and unwieldy that it’s probably not RAI, and only operates to limit player features, so definitely not RAF.
The utility being that what you conjure of a corpse, primarily fresh, would also have blood in it. Blood being a liquid that would be conjurable would alot for similar object questioning as presented.
Also the tweet doesnt really give much info besides just stating it is 0gp worth. That doesnt exactly change much besides no material component worth X and no selling it since it would be worth 0. That does not negate the objects themselves. Conjuring a high end watch is possible, albeit the cost of the conjured one is 0.
Also the tweet doesnt really give much info besides just stating it is 0gp worth. That doesnt exactly change much besides no material component worth X and no selling it since it would be worth 0. That does not negate the objects themselves. Conjuring a high end watch is possible, albeit the cost of the conjured one is 0.
The tweet says 'composition is DMs call'. Which means the thing that looks like purple worm venom might just be magical goo with no interesting properties (though of course, it's a tweet, not a rule).
The feature does not invite the possibility of conjuring something that only LOOKS like an object but is not that object. If conjured poisons are inert goo, conjured weapons are fabrage replicas, etc… just tell your player you’re houseruling the class out of existence or rewriting the feature to conjure only “useless” versions of objects, don’t ambush them with unwritten “gotcha!” rulings mid campaign when they do something creative.
It’s hard to cite a passage that disproves “objects cannot be liquid” or “containers of liquid aren’t discrete” or “objects must be indivisible wholes incapable of separation or mixture”, when there is simply no citable source in the DMG or elsewhere for your claims.
Funny, you don't seem to have a problem making multi-page threads to reverse-engineer rules we already have clear rulings on. This time around you only have to figure out one sentence and the ruling would have pretty broad application, and you're not interested? "It's unwritten" is not a rebuttal, it's a cop out.
and sufficiently inflexible and unwieldy that it’s probably not RAI
I've shown several logical problems that result from attempting to treat liquids as objects, plus the very real problem of players trying to cheese their way into 2,000 gp consumables. This is another cop-out and amounts to nothing more than "my gut disagrees."
and only operates to limit player features, so definitely not RAF.
Whether a liquid is an object or not has implications beyond just Minor Conjuration. If you think this ruling ruins Minor Conjuration, just house rule that instead of bending the rules backwards to make a sucky feature not suck. It's not like all the 2nd level features for the 8 schools are all balanced and Minor Conjuration would be the odd one out. You know how many times I've seen Minor Alchemy come in handy? 0.
I have no problem with your ruling re: Minor Conjuration, if you think that conjuring consumables is an exploit that goes beyond RAI of the ability or what's balanced. I do have a problem with you conjuring up an underlying limitation about objects 5E-wide to conceal that as not being your personal ruling but rather an objective rule for all players, some sort of Rules-as-Unwritten truth that others are in error for not recognizing. If you don't think its RAI for minor conjuration to conjure consumables, fine. But there is nothing written in the DMG or elsewhere that would suggest that the discrete units of equipment in the PHB and elsewhere are not "objects" in 5E. Its muddy enough in the real world what we usefully refer to as a single "object" versus a combined collection of several materials and substances, but in 5E, I see no invitation whatsoever to treat a Acid (vial) as a "vial" object and a non-object acid within it, rather than just a single acid (vial) object that is a single unit.
Reallly though, "problem" overstates it... sorry, I got a little carried away. I disagree with your ruling about objects, and don't see a constructive way to disagree with it in any greater detail than just saying "that isn't a written rule and I don't agree with it being useful or desirable." Minor Illusion becomes incapable of rendering puddles, vials filled with substances, or the "muddy footprints" in its description... yeah, I just don't like it.
Probably a better topic for its own thread since it goes well beyond minor conjuration alone . Sorry for coming off abrasive.
The feature does not invite the possibility of conjuring something that only LOOKS like an object but is not that object. If conjured poisons are inert goo, conjured weapons are fabrage replicas, etc… just tell your player you’re houseruling the class out of existence or rewriting the feature to conjure only “useless” versions of objects, don’t ambush them with unwritten “gotcha!” rulings mid campaign when they do something creative.
The feature was not intended to be used to conjure weapons, poisons, or bombs that do a ton of damage, so ruling that it can't do a ton of damage is hardly "house ruling it out of existence" or making it useless.
Personally, I'd make it work off of compositional knowledge. Even very intelligent wizards are unlikely to know the chemical makeup of complex poisons even if they can make it with ingredients. If we also rule that gunpowder disappears from burning before it can explode, then there are no overpowered exploits. It can make weapons, trinkets, and tools with no problem.
Maybe its just the games I've been in, but I've never seen a published campaign or a home campaign where conjuring a weapon, trinket, or tool would be meaningful. When balanced against Abjuration (an extra HP pool that scales well with tiers of play), Divination (a powerful reroll-type ability that can essentially instakill bosses with good spell selection), Enchantment (indefinite stunlocking that scales for all tiers and is useful in and out of combat), Evocation (lets the explosion wizard throw explosions in all combats, not just appropriate ones, handing out mass auto-Evasion), Illusion (kinda weak, but minor illusion having sound AND image makes it 1000% more effective, especially once it can move at Wizard 6), Necromancy (life drain is a weak niche ability for a wizard, but at least has a clear mechanical trigger and benefit that the player CAN use in every campaign)... this new Minor Conjuration limited only to mundane physical trinkets/tools/weapons would be far and away weaker than ALL of those features.
It would even be less useful than the (very niche) Transmutation, which at least lets you cut or burn your way through stone or iron by turning it to wood. Conjuration alone would have a purely "ribbon" feature at level 2 with no mechanical application whatsoever, if it could no longer even provide Acid (vial)s or the like to the party for each combat. Very lame.
Maybe its just the games I've been in, but I've never seen a published campaign or a home campaign where conjuring a weapon, trinket, or tool would be meaningful. When balanced against Abjuration (an extra HP pool that scales well with tiers of play), Divination (a powerful reroll-type ability that can essentially instakill bosses with good spell selection), Enchantment (indefinite stunlocking that scales for all tiers and is useful in and out of combat), Evocation (lets the explosion wizard throw explosions in all combats, not just appropriate ones, handing out mass auto-Evasion), Illusion (kinda weak, but minor illusion having sound AND image makes it 1000% more effective, especially once it can move at Wizard 6), Necromancy (life drain is a weak niche ability for a wizard, but at least has a clear mechanical trigger and benefit that the player CAN use in every campaign)... this new Minor Conjuration limited only to mundane physical trinkets/tools/weapons would be far and away weaker than ALL of those features.
It would even be less useful than the (very niche) Transmutation, which at least lets you cut or burn your way through stone or iron by turning it to wood. Conjuration alone would have a purely "ribbon" feature at level 2 with no mechanical application whatsoever, if it could no longer even provide Acid (vial)s or the like to the party for each combat. Very lame.
You've never been in a game where it would be beneficial to conjure up a key? You've never wanted to roleplay a character who can conjure minor objects from nothing? You've never read Stephen King's Needful Things? You never play characters who aren't 100% dedicated to combat? That ability is very neat and flavorful without the munchkin tampering, I think.
The feature does not invite the possibility of conjuring something that only LOOKS like an object but is not that object.
Yeah it does. It doesn't create a regular object, it creates a weird 'visibly magical' glowing thing, and weird glowing things are generally assumed to be not real objects.
It's not clear what utility the power is supposed to have, but given that it's unlimited uses, probably cantrip-level.
No other Wizard 2 feature is cantrip-level potency. Illusion is closest, but essentially takes a cantrip and makes it better than other first level illusion spells.
Starting at 2nd level when you select this school, you can use your action to conjure up an inanimate object in your hand or on the ground in an unoccupied space that you can see within 10 feet of you. This object can be no larger than 3 feet on a side and weigh no more than 10 pounds, and its form must be that of a nonmagical object that you have seen. The object is visibly magical, radiating dim light out to 5 feet.
The object disappears after 1 hour, when you use this feature again, or if it takes or deals any damage.
You’re right, I overlooked that you aren’t summoning an object, but an object in the FORM of an object. Functionless (but identical) goo is RAW permissible, my bad.
Still a bad ruling for the health of the class, though, in my opinion.
Yeahhhh gotta admit, the aspect of trying your damndest to make it "oh you cant make an actual thing cuz it states its a form of a thing" has got to be one of the furthest stretches I'veever seen in anything. Agree with Chicken_Champ here. Aside from Coder yall are really not making any sense and arguing against the actual rule of the ability, even though the sage advice compendium and JC referencing a skateboard fully and 100% show it is a real and tangible and functional. Yes a bomb works. Yes a book works. Yes a skateboard works. The ONLY arguement that anyone has presented as even half feasible and that can hold some semblence of merit is Coder's arguement on the aspect of liquid, and even that doesnt hold official rules merit. As stated I do not see eye to eye with that viewpoint of theirs, but I can at least respect how it was presented and could be viewed from that way based on the lack of liquid definition as object in the game. Nearly every other counter I have seen against he idea of what minor conjuration goes against the rules we have that are laid out in both sage advice compendium and from JC.
Also compositional knowledge? Seriously? Cool so you better have a perfect understanding of Qauntum Entanglement, physics, string theory, and perfect understanding of your own body and powers to summon a chair with the ability. Come on. Tack on to that just cuz something glows makes it non magical? That is just as weird as the statment about it.
No other Wizard 2 feature is cantrip-level potency.
I would classify enchantment 2 and transmutation 2 as cantrip-level, and illusion 2 is in fact a (slightly boosted) cantrip. Those are also the only wizard features that have unlimited uses, all the others are either limited per day or require spending leveled spell slots.
Is ice, which is still water but in a different state, an object? Also there is nothing in Minor Conjuration that says anything about the temperature you create the object at. Create think strips of frozen poison at -50 degree temperature in contact with the weapon.
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Ignoring the aspect of the liquids and viewing of packs for the ability (since neither of us will budge on our own interpretation being right), the aspect of multipart is most definitely multi object being used into one item. You could take the wheels off of it. Would it be non functional? Yes. Would it have taken damage? Not necessarily. This is my explanation and pointing out on bombs and other things why they will work with Minor Conjuration.
What is your thoughts on the ability to conjure a fresh rats corpse with the ability?
Yeah, Coder is waving around an inflexible unwritten rule, which isn’t a particularly attractive combination, even before adding the context that it’s one that will only ever come up in play in order to be used to limit a players defining class feature. Hard pass.
conjuring a corpse would be great! The perfect crime, conjure a (unreasonably light) halfling corpse to distract the guard, busying them with investigating a crime that never happened, chaos when the body vanishes… sounds just like the over-complicated Oceans Eleven type schemes players always try to get up to!
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The other issue with splitting things up is that the spell creates one object, and if you split it up, it is no longer one object. The ability doesn't specifically say whether a created object must merely be initially a valid object, or if it must remain a valid object (separate from splitting, this could be relevant to, say, creating a rope), but it certainly doesn't allow for multiple objects.
Which was my point back in January 2020.
If you're going to call me out at least have the courtesy of pointing out where I'm wrong. I'm citing the DMG. There's no other object rules. If you've got some record of the devs saying the feature that gives you temporary fake objects is intended to give you a free pass for 2,000gp consumables despite this tweet, I'd also love to know.
Re: corpses, I'm iffy on the utility of an obviously fake, glowing corpse. If it's not going to hold up to scrutiny anyways, why not use Minor Illusion instead?
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It’s hard to cite a passage that disproves “objects cannot be liquid” or “containers of liquid aren’t discrete” or “objects must be indivisible wholes incapable of separation or mixture”, when there is simply no citable source in the DMG or elsewhere for your claims. “It’s unwritten” is sufficient rebuttal to all of the above, I think that was clear enough. It’s unwritten (so not RAW), and sufficiently inflexible and unwieldy that it’s probably not RAI, and only operates to limit player features, so definitely not RAF.
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The utility being that what you conjure of a corpse, primarily fresh, would also have blood in it. Blood being a liquid that would be conjurable would alot for similar object questioning as presented.
Also the tweet doesnt really give much info besides just stating it is 0gp worth. That doesnt exactly change much besides no material component worth X and no selling it since it would be worth 0. That does not negate the objects themselves. Conjuring a high end watch is possible, albeit the cost of the conjured one is 0.
The tweet says 'composition is DMs call'. Which means the thing that looks like purple worm venom might just be magical goo with no interesting properties (though of course, it's a tweet, not a rule).
The feature does not invite the possibility of conjuring something that only LOOKS like an object but is not that object. If conjured poisons are inert goo, conjured weapons are fabrage replicas, etc… just tell your player you’re houseruling the class out of existence or rewriting the feature to conjure only “useless” versions of objects, don’t ambush them with unwritten “gotcha!” rulings mid campaign when they do something creative.
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Funny, you don't seem to have a problem making multi-page threads to reverse-engineer rules we already have clear rulings on. This time around you only have to figure out one sentence and the ruling would have pretty broad application, and you're not interested? "It's unwritten" is not a rebuttal, it's a cop out.
I've shown several logical problems that result from attempting to treat liquids as objects, plus the very real problem of players trying to cheese their way into 2,000 gp consumables. This is another cop-out and amounts to nothing more than "my gut disagrees."
Whether a liquid is an object or not has implications beyond just Minor Conjuration. If you think this ruling ruins Minor Conjuration, just house rule that instead of bending the rules backwards to make a sucky feature not suck. It's not like all the 2nd level features for the 8 schools are all balanced and Minor Conjuration would be the odd one out. You know how many times I've seen Minor Alchemy come in handy? 0.
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I have no problem with your ruling re: Minor Conjuration, if you think that conjuring consumables is an exploit that goes beyond RAI of the ability or what's balanced. I do have a problem with you conjuring up an underlying limitation about objects 5E-wide to conceal that as not being your personal ruling but rather an objective rule for all players, some sort of Rules-as-Unwritten truth that others are in error for not recognizing. If you don't think its RAI for minor conjuration to conjure consumables, fine. But there is nothing written in the DMG or elsewhere that would suggest that the discrete units of equipment in the PHB and elsewhere are not "objects" in 5E. Its muddy enough in the real world what we usefully refer to as a single "object" versus a combined collection of several materials and substances, but in 5E, I see no invitation whatsoever to treat a Acid (vial) as a "vial" object and a non-object acid within it, rather than just a single acid (vial) object that is a single unit.
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Reallly though, "problem" overstates it... sorry, I got a little carried away. I disagree with your ruling about objects, and don't see a constructive way to disagree with it in any greater detail than just saying "that isn't a written rule and I don't agree with it being useful or desirable." Minor Illusion becomes incapable of rendering puddles, vials filled with substances, or the "muddy footprints" in its description... yeah, I just don't like it.
Probably a better topic for its own thread since it goes well beyond minor conjuration alone . Sorry for coming off abrasive.
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The feature was not intended to be used to conjure weapons, poisons, or bombs that do a ton of damage, so ruling that it can't do a ton of damage is hardly "house ruling it out of existence" or making it useless.
Personally, I'd make it work off of compositional knowledge. Even very intelligent wizards are unlikely to know the chemical makeup of complex poisons even if they can make it with ingredients. If we also rule that gunpowder disappears from burning before it can explode, then there are no overpowered exploits. It can make weapons, trinkets, and tools with no problem.
Maybe its just the games I've been in, but I've never seen a published campaign or a home campaign where conjuring a weapon, trinket, or tool would be meaningful. When balanced against Abjuration (an extra HP pool that scales well with tiers of play), Divination (a powerful reroll-type ability that can essentially instakill bosses with good spell selection), Enchantment (indefinite stunlocking that scales for all tiers and is useful in and out of combat), Evocation (lets the explosion wizard throw explosions in all combats, not just appropriate ones, handing out mass auto-Evasion), Illusion (kinda weak, but minor illusion having sound AND image makes it 1000% more effective, especially once it can move at Wizard 6), Necromancy (life drain is a weak niche ability for a wizard, but at least has a clear mechanical trigger and benefit that the player CAN use in every campaign)... this new Minor Conjuration limited only to mundane physical trinkets/tools/weapons would be far and away weaker than ALL of those features.
It would even be less useful than the (very niche) Transmutation, which at least lets you cut or burn your way through stone or iron by turning it to wood. Conjuration alone would have a purely "ribbon" feature at level 2 with no mechanical application whatsoever, if it could no longer even provide Acid (vial)s or the like to the party for each combat. Very lame.
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You've never been in a game where it would be beneficial to conjure up a key? You've never wanted to roleplay a character who can conjure minor objects from nothing? You've never read Stephen King's Needful Things? You never play characters who aren't 100% dedicated to combat? That ability is very neat and flavorful without the munchkin tampering, I think.
Yeah it does. It doesn't create a regular object, it creates a weird 'visibly magical' glowing thing, and weird glowing things are generally assumed to be not real objects.
It's not clear what utility the power is supposed to have, but given that it's unlimited uses, probably cantrip-level.
No other Wizard 2 feature is cantrip-level potency. Illusion is closest, but essentially takes a cantrip and makes it better than other first level illusion spells.
You’re right, I overlooked that you aren’t summoning an object, but an object in the FORM of an object. Functionless (but identical) goo is RAW permissible, my bad.
Still a bad ruling for the health of the class, though, in my opinion.
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Yeahhhh gotta admit, the aspect of trying your damndest to make it "oh you cant make an actual thing cuz it states its a form of a thing" has got to be one of the furthest stretches I'veever seen in anything. Agree with Chicken_Champ here. Aside from Coder yall are really not making any sense and arguing against the actual rule of the ability, even though the sage advice compendium and JC referencing a skateboard fully and 100% show it is a real and tangible and functional. Yes a bomb works. Yes a book works. Yes a skateboard works. The ONLY arguement that anyone has presented as even half feasible and that can hold some semblence of merit is Coder's arguement on the aspect of liquid, and even that doesnt hold official rules merit. As stated I do not see eye to eye with that viewpoint of theirs, but I can at least respect how it was presented and could be viewed from that way based on the lack of liquid definition as object in the game. Nearly every other counter I have seen against he idea of what minor conjuration goes against the rules we have that are laid out in both sage advice compendium and from JC.
Also compositional knowledge? Seriously? Cool so you better have a perfect understanding of Qauntum Entanglement, physics, string theory, and perfect understanding of your own body and powers to summon a chair with the ability. Come on. Tack on to that just cuz something glows makes it non magical? That is just as weird as the statment about it.
I would classify enchantment 2 and transmutation 2 as cantrip-level, and illusion 2 is in fact a (slightly boosted) cantrip. Those are also the only wizard features that have unlimited uses, all the others are either limited per day or require spending leveled spell slots.
Is ice, which is still water but in a different state, an object? Also there is nothing in Minor Conjuration that says anything about the temperature you create the object at. Create think strips of frozen poison at -50 degree temperature in contact with the weapon.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!