Is ice, which is still water but in a different state, an object? Also there is nothing in Minor Conjuration that says anything about the temperature you create the object at. Create think strips of frozen poison at -50 degree temperature in contact with the weapon.
Agreed, and ice is listed as an example of an object in the game.
Maybe its just the games I've been in, but I've never seen a published campaign or a home campaign where conjuring a weapon, trinket, or tool would be meaningful. When balanced against Abjuration (an extra HP pool that scales well with tiers of play), Divination (a powerful reroll-type ability that can essentially instakill bosses with good spell selection), Enchantment (indefinite stunlocking that scales for all tiers and is useful in and out of combat), Evocation (lets the explosion wizard throw explosions in all combats, not just appropriate ones, handing out mass auto-Evasion), Illusion (kinda weak, but minor illusion having sound AND image makes it 1000% more effective, especially once it can move at Wizard 6), Necromancy (life drain is a weak niche ability for a wizard, but at least has a clear mechanical trigger and benefit that the player CAN use in every campaign)... this new Minor Conjuration limited only to mundane physical trinkets/tools/weapons would be far and away weaker than ALL of those features.
It would even be less useful than the (very niche) Transmutation, which at least lets you cut or burn your way through stone or iron by turning it to wood. Conjuration alone would have a purely "ribbon" feature at level 2 with no mechanical application whatsoever, if it could no longer even provide Acid (vial)s or the like to the party for each combat. Very lame.
You've never been in a game where it would be beneficial to conjure up a key? You've never wanted to roleplay a character who can conjure minor objects from nothing? You've never read Stephen King's Needful Things? You never play characters who aren't 100% dedicated to combat? That ability is very neat and flavorful without the munchkin tampering, I think.
While I am the op, and it will be obvious what my stance on this arguement is, I would like to counter this a bit.
I do agree conjuration wizard is super flavorful and fun, illusion wizard is also like that, but has benefits in tense situations too. By tense situations, not just combat, say a chase, an argument with the city guards, hiding from those same guards! What are you going to do with minor conjuration in a chase? Throw a singular ball bearing down? One caltrop? Maybe a 3 by 3 block of stone- but it has to weigh less than ten pounds. What are you going to do with minor conjuration when arguing with someone? Wave a glowing sword above your head? Just have the barbarian do that instead! What are you going to do with minor conjuration when hiding?
It would be beneficial to minor illusion a key, but you need to see the key first. And by that time, couldn't you just have your friendly neighborhood rogue borrow it? Or just mage hand it away. Most of my wizards could also conjure minor objects from nothing, prestidigitation. Yes, I love minor conjuration, but letting it be a bit more powerful than just a cheap party trick would be nice, eh?
Bahahaha I'm picturing the conj wiz turning around in a chase, conjuring a double bladed scimitar (fits the limits) thats glowing and nat 20 an intimidation check hahaha. Thats glorious. We had a player actually stop an entire half of the town guard in Strahd game by silent image Strahd on back of his flaming horse. The town guard got spooked for a round and that was enough to change it from a tpk to escape and live another day.
This gave me a funny idea too. Conjure a frozen purple worm poison dagger (frozen purple worm poison in the shape of a dagger) then use steady aim to get adv on the atk and possible sneak atk dmg too hahaha. Now this is a gargantuan stretch of creativity I'd say but a fun theory craft, and itd take 2 turns to even set up during combat.
Maybe its just the games I've been in, but I've never seen a published campaign or a home campaign where conjuring a weapon, trinket, or tool would be meaningful. When balanced against Abjuration (an extra HP pool that scales well with tiers of play), Divination (a powerful reroll-type ability that can essentially instakill bosses with good spell selection), Enchantment (indefinite stunlocking that scales for all tiers and is useful in and out of combat), Evocation (lets the explosion wizard throw explosions in all combats, not just appropriate ones, handing out mass auto-Evasion), Illusion (kinda weak, but minor illusion having sound AND image makes it 1000% more effective, especially once it can move at Wizard 6), Necromancy (life drain is a weak niche ability for a wizard, but at least has a clear mechanical trigger and benefit that the player CAN use in every campaign)... this new Minor Conjuration limited only to mundane physical trinkets/tools/weapons would be far and away weaker than ALL of those features.
It would even be less useful than the (very niche) Transmutation, which at least lets you cut or burn your way through stone or iron by turning it to wood. Conjuration alone would have a purely "ribbon" feature at level 2 with no mechanical application whatsoever, if it could no longer even provide Acid (vial)s or the like to the party for each combat. Very lame.
You've never been in a game where it would be beneficial to conjure up a key? You've never wanted to roleplay a character who can conjure minor objects from nothing? You've never read Stephen King's Needful Things? You never play characters who aren't 100% dedicated to combat? That ability is very neat and flavorful without the munchkin tampering, I think.
While I am the op, and it will be obvious what my stance on this arguement is, I would like to counter this a bit.
I do agree conjuration wizard is super flavorful and fun, illusion wizard is also like that, but has benefits in tense situations too. By tense situations, not just combat, say a chase, an argument with the city guards, hiding from those same guards! What are you going to do with minor conjuration in a chase? Throw a singular ball bearing down? One caltrop? Maybe a 3 by 3 block of stone- but it has to weigh less than ten pounds. What are you going to do with minor conjuration when arguing with someone? Wave a glowing sword above your head? Just have the barbarian do that instead! What are you going to do with minor conjuration when hiding?
It would be beneficial to minor illusion a key, but you need to see the key first. And by that time, couldn't you just have your friendly neighborhood rogue borrow it? Or just mage hand it away. Most of my wizards could also conjure minor objects from nothing, prestidigitation. Yes, I love minor conjuration, but letting it be a bit more powerful than just a cheap party trick would be nice, eh?
If your argument is “I’m not creative enough to use it in x situation” or “another character can do something similar”, then yeah man, every ability that doesn’t deal fireball damage is bad.
Maybe its just the games I've been in, but I've never seen a published campaign or a home campaign where conjuring a weapon, trinket, or tool would be meaningful. When balanced against Abjuration (an extra HP pool that scales well with tiers of play), Divination (a powerful reroll-type ability that can essentially instakill bosses with good spell selection), Enchantment (indefinite stunlocking that scales for all tiers and is useful in and out of combat), Evocation (lets the explosion wizard throw explosions in all combats, not just appropriate ones, handing out mass auto-Evasion), Illusion (kinda weak, but minor illusion having sound AND image makes it 1000% more effective, especially once it can move at Wizard 6), Necromancy (life drain is a weak niche ability for a wizard, but at least has a clear mechanical trigger and benefit that the player CAN use in every campaign)... this new Minor Conjuration limited only to mundane physical trinkets/tools/weapons would be far and away weaker than ALL of those features.
It would even be less useful than the (very niche) Transmutation, which at least lets you cut or burn your way through stone or iron by turning it to wood. Conjuration alone would have a purely "ribbon" feature at level 2 with no mechanical application whatsoever, if it could no longer even provide Acid (vial)s or the like to the party for each combat. Very lame.
You've never been in a game where it would be beneficial to conjure up a key? You've never wanted to roleplay a character who can conjure minor objects from nothing? You've never read Stephen King's Needful Things? You never play characters who aren't 100% dedicated to combat? That ability is very neat and flavorful without the munchkin tampering, I think.
While I am the op, and it will be obvious what my stance on this arguement is, I would like to counter this a bit.
I do agree conjuration wizard is super flavorful and fun, illusion wizard is also like that, but has benefits in tense situations too. By tense situations, not just combat, say a chase, an argument with the city guards, hiding from those same guards! What are you going to do with minor conjuration in a chase? Throw a singular ball bearing down? One caltrop? Maybe a 3 by 3 block of stone- but it has to weigh less than ten pounds. What are you going to do with minor conjuration when arguing with someone? Wave a glowing sword above your head? Just have the barbarian do that instead! What are you going to do with minor conjuration when hiding?
It would be beneficial to minor illusion a key, but you need to see the key first. And by that time, couldn't you just have your friendly neighborhood rogue borrow it? Or just mage hand it away. Most of my wizards could also conjure minor objects from nothing, prestidigitation. Yes, I love minor conjuration, but letting it be a bit more powerful than just a cheap party trick would be nice, eh?
If your argument is “I’m not creative enough to use it in x situation” or “another character can do something similar”, then yeah man, every ability that doesn’t deal fireball damage is bad.
....You mean the aspect of what the thread is about for the ability to conjure up answers of actual importance(damage or other) beside just minor illusion cantrip or prestidigitation little things?
Given where the power is on character progression, and that it's unrestricted use, if you allow it to produce poisons, appropriate damage would be 1d6 per tier (save negates); 12d6 poison is hilariously beyond the proper capabilities of a level 2 feature with unlimited uses. Of course, as Chicken_Champ helpfully pointed out, it's actually an object in the form of a mundane object, not an actual object.
If you want it to scale with tiers of play, I would give it a daily limit on uses, or make it cost spell levels, but producing things like poison isn't really thematic for conjuring in the first place (it's more the domain of transmutation), so I'd probably allow for larger and more durable objects before I'd allow poisons.
Given where the power is on character progression, and that it's unrestricted use, if you allow it to produce poisons, appropriate damage would be 1d6 per tier (save negates); 12d6 poison is hilariously beyond the proper capabilities of a level 2 feature with unlimited uses. Of course, as Chicken_Champ helpfully pointed out, it's actually an object in the form of a mundane object, not an actual object.
If you want it to scale with tiers of play, I would give it a daily limit on uses, or make it cost spell levels, but producing things like poison isn't really thematic for conjuring in the first place (it's more the domain of transmutation), so I'd probably allow for larger and more durable objects before I'd allow poisons.
Im pretty sure that Chicken_Champ was being sarcastic. It is clearly an actual object copy. Example being (yet again being pointed out) a book with writing (which also the ink was a liquid and able to be copied within the book so yeah) and also a an actual skateboard stated by Jeremy Crawford. If you want it to be different than what the ability is, thats fine. You run it that way, but dont try to say something that is clearly and evidently inaccurate in that it isnt an actual object and functional for what you create. Also just pointing out as well: acid splash, poison spray, stinking cloud, cloudkill. All of these spells are acid/poison effect and all of them are conjuration spells (there are also others too these are a few).So it most definitely fits the "conjuration theme" as far as the game is concerned. Also the object created is magical since the effect states its visibly magical. The item you are creating is a magical variant.
Im pretty sure that Chicken_Champ was being sarcastic.
No, he was quoting rules text and then saying he didn't like that interpretation but it was valid.
...wtf?? Ok please do not act this dense. Im sure you are much more clever than that. You grabbing just one piece of what was said and ignoring the rest is nothing but cherry picking clearly, and not very well. There is 0 actual rebuttal and what you stated about the ruling is very wrong, as been pointed out multiple times and clearly evident. His statement previous on it was clearly sarcasm. Please do not troll.
You’re right, I overlooked that you aren’t summoning an object, but an object in the FORM of an object. Functionless (but identical) goo is RAW permissible, my bad.
That's not sarcasm. I mean, he did follow that up with:
Hate to break it to you but that's just a myth. If you examine old windows it looks like that would be the case However making perfectly flat glass back then was near impossible and when they would cut the glass for the windows they would cut it such a way that the thicker part would be on the bottom. That's all
Is ice, which is still water but in a different state, an object? Also there is nothing in Minor Conjuration that says anything about the temperature you create the object at. Create think strips of frozen poison at -50 degree temperature in contact with the weapon.
Nothing in Minor Conjuration says that the object conjured is stationary either. Why don't you just conjure a 10 lb. ingot that's already travelling at high rate of speed? Surely we can consider something like this effectively the same as terminal velocity only it's the object hitting the creature instead of the creature hitting the object and assume it has the maximum falling damage value of 20d6.
Why do you guys feel the need to go to incessant lengths to exploit a feature well beyond the capabilities that it's clearly meant to have?
My answer to players asking for OP stuff like this is always... "Do you want the monsters to have access to that also?". 99% of the time it ends RAW discussions.
My answer to players asking for OP stuff like this is always... "Do you want the monsters to have access to that also?". 99% of the time it ends RAW discussions.
This is meaningless. Only someone who's basically never played 5E before will believe your (the DM's) implicit claim here that NPCs obey PC physics. The reality is that every NPC you meet has access to anything the DM wants the NPC to have access to, with none of the constraints a PC faces. Any PC familiar with the game should be assuming that every NPC on the planet has access to literally any "OP" ability the DM sees fit. You're significantly better off just saying "this is how I'm homebrewing the fix to WOTC's broken rules in my world", and then just telling your PC how the ability will work in your world.
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Agreed, and ice is listed as an example of an object in the game.
While I am the op, and it will be obvious what my stance on this arguement is, I would like to counter this a bit.
I do agree conjuration wizard is super flavorful and fun, illusion wizard is also like that, but has benefits in tense situations too. By tense situations, not just combat, say a chase, an argument with the city guards, hiding from those same guards! What are you going to do with minor conjuration in a chase? Throw a singular ball bearing down? One caltrop? Maybe a 3 by 3 block of stone- but it has to weigh less than ten pounds. What are you going to do with minor conjuration when arguing with someone? Wave a glowing sword above your head? Just have the barbarian do that instead! What are you going to do with minor conjuration when hiding?
It would be beneficial to minor illusion a key, but you need to see the key first. And by that time, couldn't you just have your friendly neighborhood rogue borrow it? Or just mage hand it away. Most of my wizards could also conjure minor objects from nothing, prestidigitation. Yes, I love minor conjuration, but letting it be a bit more powerful than just a cheap party trick would be nice, eh?
When players get creative.
Bahahaha I'm picturing the conj wiz turning around in a chase, conjuring a double bladed scimitar (fits the limits) thats glowing and nat 20 an intimidation check hahaha. Thats glorious. We had a player actually stop an entire half of the town guard in Strahd game by silent image Strahd on back of his flaming horse. The town guard got spooked for a round and that was enough to change it from a tpk to escape and live another day.
This gave me a funny idea too. Conjure a frozen purple worm poison dagger (frozen purple worm poison in the shape of a dagger) then use steady aim to get adv on the atk and possible sneak atk dmg too hahaha. Now this is a gargantuan stretch of creativity I'd say but a fun theory craft, and itd take 2 turns to even set up during combat.
If your argument is “I’m not creative enough to use it in x situation” or “another character can do something similar”, then yeah man, every ability that doesn’t deal fireball damage is bad.
....You mean the aspect of what the thread is about for the ability to conjure up answers of actual importance(damage or other) beside just minor illusion cantrip or prestidigitation little things?
Given where the power is on character progression, and that it's unrestricted use, if you allow it to produce poisons, appropriate damage would be 1d6 per tier (save negates); 12d6 poison is hilariously beyond the proper capabilities of a level 2 feature with unlimited uses. Of course, as Chicken_Champ helpfully pointed out, it's actually an object in the form of a mundane object, not an actual object.
If you want it to scale with tiers of play, I would give it a daily limit on uses, or make it cost spell levels, but producing things like poison isn't really thematic for conjuring in the first place (it's more the domain of transmutation), so I'd probably allow for larger and more durable objects before I'd allow poisons.
Im pretty sure that Chicken_Champ was being sarcastic. It is clearly an actual object copy. Example being (yet again being pointed out) a book with writing (which also the ink was a liquid and able to be copied within the book so yeah) and also a an actual skateboard stated by Jeremy Crawford. If you want it to be different than what the ability is, thats fine. You run it that way, but dont try to say something that is clearly and evidently inaccurate in that it isnt an actual object and functional for what you create. Also just pointing out as well: acid splash, poison spray, stinking cloud, cloudkill. All of these spells are acid/poison effect and all of them are conjuration spells (there are also others too these are a few).So it most definitely fits the "conjuration theme" as far as the game is concerned. Also the object created is magical since the effect states its visibly magical. The item you are creating is a magical variant.
No, he was quoting rules text and then saying he didn't like that interpretation but it was valid.
...wtf?? Ok please do not act this dense. Im sure you are much more clever than that. You grabbing just one piece of what was said and ignoring the rest is nothing but cherry picking clearly, and not very well. There is 0 actual rebuttal and what you stated about the ruling is very wrong, as been pointed out multiple times and clearly evident. His statement previous on it was clearly sarcasm. Please do not troll.
The statement in question was:
That's not sarcasm. I mean, he did follow that up with:
but that doesn't make it sarcasm either.
Hate to break it to you but that's just a myth. If you examine old windows it looks like that would be the case However making perfectly flat glass back then was near impossible and when they would cut the glass for the windows they would cut it such a way that the thicker part would be on the bottom. That's all
Nothing in Minor Conjuration says that the object conjured is stationary either. Why don't you just conjure a 10 lb. ingot that's already travelling at high rate of speed? Surely we can consider something like this effectively the same as terminal velocity only it's the object hitting the creature instead of the creature hitting the object and assume it has the maximum falling damage value of 20d6.
Why do you guys feel the need to go to incessant lengths to exploit a feature well beyond the capabilities that it's clearly meant to have?
From what i'm seeing it basically says that once it deals damage it's gone so basically you could use it once or something
My answer to players asking for OP stuff like this is always... "Do you want the monsters to have access to that also?". 99% of the time it ends RAW discussions.
This is meaningless. Only someone who's basically never played 5E before will believe your (the DM's) implicit claim here that NPCs obey PC physics. The reality is that every NPC you meet has access to anything the DM wants the NPC to have access to, with none of the constraints a PC faces. Any PC familiar with the game should be assuming that every NPC on the planet has access to literally any "OP" ability the DM sees fit. You're significantly better off just saying "this is how I'm homebrewing the fix to WOTC's broken rules in my world", and then just telling your PC how the ability will work in your world.