I've been looking everywhere, trying to get some clarity as it relates to rolling a Crit as a Paladin. It seems like there are mixed reviews and I just wanted to put something out there for debate, maybe provide some clarity to the whole argument.
If you roll a Crit on one of your attacks as a Paladin, I feel like it MUST be cheating to suddenly say, "Oh, I'm going to expend a spell slot for Divine Smite and roll twice the number of D8's because I rolled a natural 20". There's absolutely NO way that Divine Smite falls under the rules of a critical hit, right? It just seems way overpowered if that were the case. Clarification?
It does. The rule about Critical Hit says that any die related to the attack's damage (and not weapon damage) is to be rolled twice. As an example, the rule cites the Sneak Attack extra damage.
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend, to a maximum of 6d8.
So you clearly choose to smite after you hit a creature. There's no way of knowing if you hit, but not if you crit unless the DM is rolling all attack rolls.
I've been looking everywhere, trying to get some clarity as it relates to rolling a Crit as a Paladin. It seems like there are mixed reviews and I just wanted to put something out there for debate, maybe provide some clarity to the whole argument.
If you roll a Crit on one of your attacks as a Paladin, I feel like it MUST be cheating to suddenly say, "Oh, I'm going to expend a spell slot for Divine Smite and roll twice the number of D8's because I rolled a natural 20". There's absolutely NO way that Divine Smite falls under the rules of a critical hit, right? It just seems way overpowered if that were the case. Clarification?
That is exactly how it works, which is why Paladin Crit Fishing Smite builds are so popular. Put the fear of Lathander (or whoever) in your foes.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yup it works. Now imagine having the Hold Person/Monster spells which grant automatic criticals on hits...
And throw in Warlock or Sorc for more spell slots...
It's why I hate Paladins, they're walking Nukes.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
The drawback, of course, is "Okay, I just critted the orc. If I use Divine Smite, yeah, it's dead. On the other hand, it might be dead even if I don't, so do I want to spend that slot?"
The drawback, of course, is "Okay, I just critted the orc. If I use Divine Smite, yeah, it's dead. On the other hand, it might be dead even if I don't, so do I want to spend that slot?"
The other drawback is that unless you multiclass, Paladins simply don't have a lot of spell slots to burn for smiting.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It's really not that strong. It's just nice to have that extra damage when you know you hit. Otherwise, it'd suck to be a melee class that has no option to do damage otherwise.
For a level 2, first-level spell slot 2d8 averages 9 damage, a crit would add around 18 damage to a swing.
At level 9 a third-level spell slot 4d8 would expect 18, a crit would expect 36.
Everyone hypes it up, but it's really not that strong unless you get a Flame Tongue Great Sword, use Heavy Weapon Master, and a cleric to cast Holy Weapon on you with someone else to hold person/hold monster. Now add in a grave cleric to Channel Divinity. Now that's good damage
The drawback, of course, is "Okay, I just critted the orc. If I use Divine Smite, yeah, it's dead. On the other hand, it might be dead even if I don't, so do I want to spend that slot?"
The other drawback is that unless you multiclass, Paladins simply don't have a lot of spell slots to burn for smiting.
And is extra slots worth losing the other benefits you get from high level paladin?
The drawback, of course, is "Okay, I just critted the orc. If I use Divine Smite, yeah, it's dead. On the other hand, it might be dead even if I don't, so do I want to spend that slot?"
The other drawback is that unless you multiclass, Paladins simply don't have a lot of spell slots to burn for smiting.
And is extra slots worth losing the other benefits you get from high level paladin?
Probably. Not many spells worth taking if you focus on smiting. Also, the higher level abilities are good, but not good enough to keep a lot of people from multiclassing. Hexblade is really good to multiclass with, because of Charisma based weapon attacks, Hex, and spell slot recharge on short rests. Sorcerer is very good to multiclass as well, because of Sorcery Points so they can make even more spell slots, and get the Shield spell.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Probably. Not many spells worth taking if you focus on smiting.
Well, not a fan of hexblade getting quite as much as it does at level 1, the one level dip is likely worthwhile (though being charisma focused limits your ability to wear heavy armor), but I really don't see the motivation for sorcerer.
Let's say we expect 20 rounds of combat per day, with an average hit chance of 70% (so 14 hits per day at level 1). At level 5, the paladin gets 28 hits per day, doing an expected damage of 28d8+168, and also 6d8 of smites. Paladin-2/Sorcerer 3 does 14d8+84 but gets 20d8 of smites (including sorcery points). 14d8 of smites obviously does not beat 14d8+84 of basic melee damage, so we want to stick with paladin up to level 5 (for multiattack). Also, you probably don't want to pass up Aura of Protection, so 6 levels (and since you get a half caster level for each, no real loss). Now, we could multiclass at this point, the stuff you get for levels 7-10 isn't all that compelling. A paladin-6/sorcerer-4 has one extra 3rd level slot, one extra 4th level slot, and 4 sorcery points which can be used for another 2 1st level slots; total advantage 13d8 of smites. Unfortunately, then along comes level 11, where the pure paladin gets an extra 28d8 per day from improved divine smite.
I'm not seeing stuff that's super compelling above 11, so maybe (though probably go to paladin-12 for the ASI and better rounding on casting), so it might be nice to start advancing sorcerer at that point, but we're well into the levels where things get a bit weird.
I've been looking everywhere, trying to get some clarity as it relates to rolling a Crit as a Paladin. It seems like there are mixed reviews and I just wanted to put something out there for debate, maybe provide some clarity to the whole argument.
If you roll a Crit on one of your attacks as a Paladin, I feel like it MUST be cheating to suddenly say, "Oh, I'm going to expend a spell slot for Divine Smite and roll twice the number of D8's because I rolled a natural 20". There's absolutely NO way that Divine Smite falls under the rules of a critical hit, right? It just seems way overpowered if that were the case. Clarification?
It does. The rule about Critical Hit says that any die related to the attack's damage (and not weapon damage) is to be rolled twice. As an example, the rule cites the Sneak Attack extra damage.
To answer the other part of your question:
So you clearly choose to smite after you hit a creature. There's no way of knowing if you hit, but not if you crit unless the DM is rolling all attack rolls.
That is exactly how it works, which is why Paladin Crit Fishing Smite builds are so popular. Put the fear of Lathander (or whoever) in your foes.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yup it works. Now imagine having the Hold Person/Monster spells which grant automatic criticals on hits...
And throw in Warlock or Sorc for more spell slots...
It's why I hate Paladins, they're walking Nukes.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
The drawback, of course, is "Okay, I just critted the orc. If I use Divine Smite, yeah, it's dead. On the other hand, it might be dead even if I don't, so do I want to spend that slot?"
Correction, they're walking nukes that don't die when they explode. They're like stars that keep exploding.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The other drawback is that unless you multiclass, Paladins simply don't have a lot of spell slots to burn for smiting.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It's really not that strong. It's just nice to have that extra damage when you know you hit. Otherwise, it'd suck to be a melee class that has no option to do damage otherwise.
For a level 2, first-level spell slot 2d8 averages 9 damage, a crit would add around 18 damage to a swing.
At level 9 a third-level spell slot 4d8 would expect 18, a crit would expect 36.
Everyone hypes it up, but it's really not that strong unless you get a Flame Tongue Great Sword, use Heavy Weapon Master, and a cleric to cast Holy Weapon on you with someone else to hold person/hold monster. Now add in a grave cleric to Channel Divinity. Now that's good damage
And is extra slots worth losing the other benefits you get from high level paladin?
Probably. Not many spells worth taking if you focus on smiting. Also, the higher level abilities are good, but not good enough to keep a lot of people from multiclassing. Hexblade is really good to multiclass with, because of Charisma based weapon attacks, Hex, and spell slot recharge on short rests. Sorcerer is very good to multiclass as well, because of Sorcery Points so they can make even more spell slots, and get the Shield spell.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Well, not a fan of hexblade getting quite as much as it does at level 1, the one level dip is likely worthwhile (though being charisma focused limits your ability to wear heavy armor), but I really don't see the motivation for sorcerer.
Let's say we expect 20 rounds of combat per day, with an average hit chance of 70% (so 14 hits per day at level 1). At level 5, the paladin gets 28 hits per day, doing an expected damage of 28d8+168, and also 6d8 of smites. Paladin-2/Sorcerer 3 does 14d8+84 but gets 20d8 of smites (including sorcery points). 14d8 of smites obviously does not beat 14d8+84 of basic melee damage, so we want to stick with paladin up to level 5 (for multiattack). Also, you probably don't want to pass up Aura of Protection, so 6 levels (and since you get a half caster level for each, no real loss). Now, we could multiclass at this point, the stuff you get for levels 7-10 isn't all that compelling. A paladin-6/sorcerer-4 has one extra 3rd level slot, one extra 4th level slot, and 4 sorcery points which can be used for another 2 1st level slots; total advantage 13d8 of smites. Unfortunately, then along comes level 11, where the pure paladin gets an extra 28d8 per day from improved divine smite.
I'm not seeing stuff that's super compelling above 11, so maybe (though probably go to paladin-12 for the ASI and better rounding on casting), so it might be nice to start advancing sorcerer at that point, but we're well into the levels where things get a bit weird.
If you want to focus on smiting, I'd go Paladin 12, Hexblade 6, Sorcerer 2.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms