I've been playing around with different character ideas, and I recently came up with the idea of making a demon hunter character (in a similar vein as from Diablo III). Thematically, I think I have most of the pieces down: Scourge Aasimar tasked with slaying demons and all other manners of unholy creatures, Urban Bounty hunter background which gives the investigative flavor of the character (rather than hunting criminal bounties, it's demon bounties). Chaotic good alignment.
However, what I've been tossing around in my head is the class build. Since I want to be able to dual wield crossbows, that suggests ranger, fighter, maybe rogue (although I've already decided I don't really want to do rogue). Demon hunting lends itself to paladin or cleric as well (although I haven't put much thought towards cleric). I toyed with the idea of doing an eldritch or battlemaster fighter (all the extra attacks means A LOT of bolts flying around, and the extra ASIs are nice so I can take Crossbow Expert and have plenty of ability improvements to spare). I'm shying away from this though, since it doesn't seem to thematically fit too well.
I don't think I need to explain the benefits of Ranger and Paladin too much. Both suffer from the fact that I waste an ASI on Crossbow Expert, which is rough when you have a spellcasting ability to maintain in addition to Dex and Con. Ranger gets the benefit of favored enemy, but lacks the thematic power of Paladin. Paladin is a perfect theme, but can't take the archery fighting style and divine smite only works in melee. Hunter's mark is a fantastic addition as well.
I haven't completely discarded the above ideas of pure-classing, but I think the best way to go about it is to multiclass Ranger/Paladin. I would probably dump at least 4 into each class to ensure I don't lose ASIs, and to guarantee Archery from Ranger and Divine Smite from Paladin. Tactics would probably be darting around the outside with dual crossbows, and occasionally poking in close to Smite with a one-handed weapon and still get the bonus crossbow shot.
I'm just not sure how to start though. Ranger makes sense for getting the archery style early and my favored enemies, Paladin makes sense for the proficiencies and because the starting equipment better matches what I want to build.
As of now, I'm leaning a bit towards Paladin 4 (Oath of Vengeance), then dip into Ranger for 4 (Hunter), then back to Paladin for the remaining 12 levels. I would basically be ignoring the Ranger spellcasting, since I'll get Hunter's Mark from the Paladin. That way I can focus on Dex/Cha instead of Dex/Cha/Wis.
Thoughts? Feedback? Other ideas? I'd love to hammer out the details and play this character sometime soon, it seems like it would be really fun!
You can't use two crossbows normally. How would you reload? Talk to your DM; maybe they'll let you start with magic, self-reloading crossbows. They could be a gift from your deity, your temple, a mentor, or perhaps a family heirloom.
I don't think a dip in Ranger brings too much to the table mechanically. Hunter's Mark is great, but you can get that with Oath of Vengeance. Colossus Slayer is good, but not good enough on its own to justify going 3 levels in. Paladins already get Divine Sense and Detect Evil and Good, so having Primeval Awareness isn't of much use for finding fiends. Unless you're using Unearthed Arcana's Revised Ranger, Favored Enemy doesn't provide any combat benefits (note that UA classes aren't balanced for multiclassing). Archery Fighting Style is great, but you can get that with 1 level of Fighter. So unless you really want Natural Explorer, I don't see much of a point in 4 Ranger levels.
It's also important to note that Improved Divine Smite doesn't work with ranged weapons. That doesn't mean you can't still be a ranged paladin, but the level 11 feature is a big improvement for all 3 martial classes (Fighter gets Extra Attack 2, Hunters get Multiattack) so you might not like feeling like you missed out on a major upgrade.
On the other hand, going full Ranger or Fighter works well with what you're trying to do. The Horizon Walker Ranger from Unearthed Arcana is an especially nice fit thematically, since it's focused on finding planar portals and fighting outsiders. It'll become official with Xanathar's Guide to Everything.
Yeah, I considered looking into the UA stuff, but I'm holding off on that for now until XGtE comes out (I want my build to be AL legal since I may play it during Tomb of Annihilation, and I won't have anything from UA till end of November). But when XGtE hits I may revisit the idea and see what else I can come up with!
So I don't want to get too pedantic with the rules, but if you could dual-wield crossbows, it would effectively mean you can get an extra shot in with a bonus action (same as you would with a melee weapon). By having Crossbow Expert, you end up having functional equivalence (bonus action attack after attacking with a one-handed weapon & ignore loading property of crossbows). http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats states that having Crossbow Expert doesn't suddenly make crossbows semi auto, and it also states I could get the same mechanical equivalence with a single hand crossbow. But it seems a lot more fun to add some flavor to the character by saying they modified the crossbows to make them semi-auto, since I won't be interfering with RAW when it comes down to actually attacking with them :)
Now, regarding your advice on dipping into Ranger, it's not really making a whole lot of sense anymore now that I think about it. Rather, I think I would be better off dipping once into fighter like you suggested for a single level (and it would get me second wind as well, which is always a nice perk). I had discarded the idea of doing a Fighter build early on, so I didn't even consider multiclassing it with Paladin!
Regarding Divine Smite, I knew I wouldn't be getting as much use out of it as a normal paladin would (regular Divine Smite also doesn't work with ranged weapons). Rather, I figured I would keep a one-handed melee weapon (longsword or something) on my character so I could dart in for a Smite (with the extra crossbow attack from Crossbow Expert), and then dart back out to keep firing away.
At this point, I'm mainly trying to keep paladin in the build for 3 reasons: thematic flavor (I'm not trying to perfectly optimize the build necessarily, I just want it to be effective and fun to play), Hunter's Mark, and Divine Sense/Detect Evil and Good (as you suggested). Divine Smite is like a cherry on top in case I get into melee situations (or want to dart in during an opening). At this point, I'm more considering a mainly Fighter build (Battlemaster) with 4 levels in Paladin. I would do first four in Paladin to get the foundation for the character, then switch to Fighter for the rest to start piling on the ASIs, Extra Attacks, and Maneuvers. Any thoughts on that?
Fighter looks attractive enough at this point where I wouldn't mind designing another dual crossbow character that's a full Fighter (different theme) just for the hell of it, haha.
The reason I said to talk to your DM is because a semi-automatic or self-reloading crossbow might be something extraordinary in their world. Are you the first to create one? What effect would they have on warfare? Is your character going to attract unwanted attention for having them? Sounds like you're going to be playing AL though, so you're probably fine as long as you explain the mechanical equivalence to the DM.
I don't think Divine Smite is a big loss for a ranged character since it has a limited number of uses and you can always use those slots on spells if the opportunity to smite up close doesn't arise. In fact, you get more damage per spell slot out of Hunter's Mark anyways. I bring up Improved Divine Smite because it's something that gets added to every attack with a melee weapon, so you're missing out on 2d8 radiant damage every round that you use the crossbows.
If you're considering Fighter, I'd stop Paladin at 3. If you take it to 4, you miss out in having a second Action Surge per short rest and a third use of Indomitable. An ASI isn't worth losing all that in my opinion; you'll still have 6, which is the same as a Rogue and 1 more than other classes get.
Makes sense, I think I've finally finished the character. Here's the character at level 7:
Scourge Aasimar, Paladin 3/Fighter 4, Urban Bounty Hunter, dual wields hand crossbows using the Crossbow Expert feature gained at level 4 (levels 1-3 will feature one crossbow) and a backup shortsword, Chaotic Neutral. Proficiencies: Acrobatics, Persuasion, Intimidation, Stealth, Dice Set, Thieves' Tools, STR/CON saves, all armor, shields, all weapons.
Prepared Paladin spells: Hunter's Mark, Bane, Divine Favor, Detect Magic, plus a 5th spell that I'll pick situationally. Although things for buffing companions will likely go on the back-burner due to his personality (below).
13 STR 15 DEX 14 CON 9 INT 10 WIS 15 CHA
His only goal is to rid the world of fiends and the undead. He doesn't care much for friends, companions are just tools for the job. He doesn't want to hurt people, but he doesn't have much consideration for those around him while conducting his "work."
I don't plan on using another ASI for sharpshooter. Taking Crossbow Expert leaves me with up to 10 points to distribute, with at least 5 going to DEX and at least 1 (probably 3) going to CHA. The remaining 2 will likely go to WIS, CON, or split between STR/INT to round them out. Although I'll likely decide this down the road when I get a better feel for playing the character.
Thanks for the advice! I think I really like this build!
i saw this had advice for building a Diablo 3 based character, and i wanna pitch some ideas for the Demon Hunter. maybe if you make it a ranger as well, try making that enough levels to gain the spell Swift Quiver in case you try making it with a regular bow or heavy crossbow. and if you wanna make the other classes of them maybe try this.
Crusader could be a Paladin multiclassed into the cleric. the Barbarian could obviously be a barbarian but it may have to go down the bath of the totem warrior. the witch doctor could be a warlock multiclassed into the sorcerer. and i guess the wizard would actually be more of a sorcerer and wizard multiclass, but which one to start with is a little bit of a problem. the necromancer could be a rogue and wizard multiclass but you could use the school of necromancy and the assassin archetype.
as for bosses, i only thought about Malthael, which is a phantom rogue and necromancer wizard with twin sickles.
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I've been playing around with different character ideas, and I recently came up with the idea of making a demon hunter character (in a similar vein as from Diablo III). Thematically, I think I have most of the pieces down: Scourge Aasimar tasked with slaying demons and all other manners of unholy creatures, Urban Bounty hunter background which gives the investigative flavor of the character (rather than hunting criminal bounties, it's demon bounties). Chaotic good alignment.
However, what I've been tossing around in my head is the class build. Since I want to be able to dual wield crossbows, that suggests ranger, fighter, maybe rogue (although I've already decided I don't really want to do rogue). Demon hunting lends itself to paladin or cleric as well (although I haven't put much thought towards cleric). I toyed with the idea of doing an eldritch or battlemaster fighter (all the extra attacks means A LOT of bolts flying around, and the extra ASIs are nice so I can take Crossbow Expert and have plenty of ability improvements to spare). I'm shying away from this though, since it doesn't seem to thematically fit too well.
I don't think I need to explain the benefits of Ranger and Paladin too much. Both suffer from the fact that I waste an ASI on Crossbow Expert, which is rough when you have a spellcasting ability to maintain in addition to Dex and Con. Ranger gets the benefit of favored enemy, but lacks the thematic power of Paladin. Paladin is a perfect theme, but can't take the archery fighting style and divine smite only works in melee. Hunter's mark is a fantastic addition as well.
I haven't completely discarded the above ideas of pure-classing, but I think the best way to go about it is to multiclass Ranger/Paladin. I would probably dump at least 4 into each class to ensure I don't lose ASIs, and to guarantee Archery from Ranger and Divine Smite from Paladin. Tactics would probably be darting around the outside with dual crossbows, and occasionally poking in close to Smite with a one-handed weapon and still get the bonus crossbow shot.
I'm just not sure how to start though. Ranger makes sense for getting the archery style early and my favored enemies, Paladin makes sense for the proficiencies and because the starting equipment better matches what I want to build.
As of now, I'm leaning a bit towards Paladin 4 (Oath of Vengeance), then dip into Ranger for 4 (Hunter), then back to Paladin for the remaining 12 levels. I would basically be ignoring the Ranger spellcasting, since I'll get Hunter's Mark from the Paladin. That way I can focus on Dex/Cha instead of Dex/Cha/Wis.
Thoughts? Feedback? Other ideas? I'd love to hammer out the details and play this character sometime soon, it seems like it would be really fun!
You can't use two crossbows normally. How would you reload? Talk to your DM; maybe they'll let you start with magic, self-reloading crossbows. They could be a gift from your deity, your temple, a mentor, or perhaps a family heirloom.
I don't think a dip in Ranger brings too much to the table mechanically. Hunter's Mark is great, but you can get that with Oath of Vengeance. Colossus Slayer is good, but not good enough on its own to justify going 3 levels in. Paladins already get Divine Sense and Detect Evil and Good, so having Primeval Awareness isn't of much use for finding fiends. Unless you're using Unearthed Arcana's Revised Ranger, Favored Enemy doesn't provide any combat benefits (note that UA classes aren't balanced for multiclassing). Archery Fighting Style is great, but you can get that with 1 level of Fighter. So unless you really want Natural Explorer, I don't see much of a point in 4 Ranger levels.
It's also important to note that Improved Divine Smite doesn't work with ranged weapons. That doesn't mean you can't still be a ranged paladin, but the level 11 feature is a big improvement for all 3 martial classes (Fighter gets Extra Attack 2, Hunters get Multiattack) so you might not like feeling like you missed out on a major upgrade.
On the other hand, going full Ranger or Fighter works well with what you're trying to do. The Horizon Walker Ranger from Unearthed Arcana is an especially nice fit thematically, since it's focused on finding planar portals and fighting outsiders. It'll become official with Xanathar's Guide to Everything.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Yeah, I considered looking into the UA stuff, but I'm holding off on that for now until XGtE comes out (I want my build to be AL legal since I may play it during Tomb of Annihilation, and I won't have anything from UA till end of November). But when XGtE hits I may revisit the idea and see what else I can come up with!
So I don't want to get too pedantic with the rules, but if you could dual-wield crossbows, it would effectively mean you can get an extra shot in with a bonus action (same as you would with a melee weapon). By having Crossbow Expert, you end up having functional equivalence (bonus action attack after attacking with a one-handed weapon & ignore loading property of crossbows). http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats states that having Crossbow Expert doesn't suddenly make crossbows semi auto, and it also states I could get the same mechanical equivalence with a single hand crossbow. But it seems a lot more fun to add some flavor to the character by saying they modified the crossbows to make them semi-auto, since I won't be interfering with RAW when it comes down to actually attacking with them :)
Now, regarding your advice on dipping into Ranger, it's not really making a whole lot of sense anymore now that I think about it. Rather, I think I would be better off dipping once into fighter like you suggested for a single level (and it would get me second wind as well, which is always a nice perk). I had discarded the idea of doing a Fighter build early on, so I didn't even consider multiclassing it with Paladin!
Regarding Divine Smite, I knew I wouldn't be getting as much use out of it as a normal paladin would (regular Divine Smite also doesn't work with ranged weapons). Rather, I figured I would keep a one-handed melee weapon (longsword or something) on my character so I could dart in for a Smite (with the extra crossbow attack from Crossbow Expert), and then dart back out to keep firing away.
At this point, I'm mainly trying to keep paladin in the build for 3 reasons: thematic flavor (I'm not trying to perfectly optimize the build necessarily, I just want it to be effective and fun to play), Hunter's Mark, and Divine Sense/Detect Evil and Good (as you suggested). Divine Smite is like a cherry on top in case I get into melee situations (or want to dart in during an opening). At this point, I'm more considering a mainly Fighter build (Battlemaster) with 4 levels in Paladin. I would do first four in Paladin to get the foundation for the character, then switch to Fighter for the rest to start piling on the ASIs, Extra Attacks, and Maneuvers. Any thoughts on that?
Fighter looks attractive enough at this point where I wouldn't mind designing another dual crossbow character that's a full Fighter (different theme) just for the hell of it, haha.
The reason I said to talk to your DM is because a semi-automatic or self-reloading crossbow might be something extraordinary in their world. Are you the first to create one? What effect would they have on warfare? Is your character going to attract unwanted attention for having them? Sounds like you're going to be playing AL though, so you're probably fine as long as you explain the mechanical equivalence to the DM.
I don't think Divine Smite is a big loss for a ranged character since it has a limited number of uses and you can always use those slots on spells if the opportunity to smite up close doesn't arise. In fact, you get more damage per spell slot out of Hunter's Mark anyways. I bring up Improved Divine Smite because it's something that gets added to every attack with a melee weapon, so you're missing out on 2d8 radiant damage every round that you use the crossbows.
If you're considering Fighter, I'd stop Paladin at 3. If you take it to 4, you miss out in having a second Action Surge per short rest and a third use of Indomitable. An ASI isn't worth losing all that in my opinion; you'll still have 6, which is the same as a Rogue and 1 more than other classes get.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Makes sense, I think I've finally finished the character. Here's the character at level 7:
Scourge Aasimar, Paladin 3/Fighter 4, Urban Bounty Hunter, dual wields hand crossbows using the Crossbow Expert feature gained at level 4 (levels 1-3 will feature one crossbow) and a backup shortsword, Chaotic Neutral. Proficiencies: Acrobatics, Persuasion, Intimidation, Stealth, Dice Set, Thieves' Tools, STR/CON saves, all armor, shields, all weapons.
Prepared Paladin spells: Hunter's Mark, Bane, Divine Favor, Detect Magic, plus a 5th spell that I'll pick situationally. Although things for buffing companions will likely go on the back-burner due to his personality (below).
13 STR
15 DEX
14 CON
9 INT
10 WIS
15 CHA
His only goal is to rid the world of fiends and the undead. He doesn't care much for friends, companions are just tools for the job. He doesn't want to hurt people, but he doesn't have much consideration for those around him while conducting his "work."
I don't plan on using another ASI for sharpshooter. Taking Crossbow Expert leaves me with up to 10 points to distribute, with at least 5 going to DEX and at least 1 (probably 3) going to CHA. The remaining 2 will likely go to WIS, CON, or split between STR/INT to round them out. Although I'll likely decide this down the road when I get a better feel for playing the character.
Thanks for the advice! I think I really like this build!
i saw this had advice for building a Diablo 3 based character, and i wanna pitch some ideas for the Demon Hunter. maybe if you make it a ranger as well, try making that enough levels to gain the spell Swift Quiver in case you try making it with a regular bow or heavy crossbow. and if you wanna make the other classes of them maybe try this.
Crusader could be a Paladin multiclassed into the cleric. the Barbarian could obviously be a barbarian but it may have to go down the bath of the totem warrior. the witch doctor could be a warlock multiclassed into the sorcerer. and i guess the wizard would actually be more of a sorcerer and wizard multiclass, but which one to start with is a little bit of a problem. the necromancer could be a rogue and wizard multiclass but you could use the school of necromancy and the assassin archetype.
as for bosses, i only thought about Malthael, which is a phantom rogue and necromancer wizard with twin sickles.