You have a Sling. You take the Sharpshooter feat. You cast Magic Stone.
How would this interact? Do you get to use your spell casting stat and apply the extra damage of sharpshooter? Do you get to attack at full range without disadvantage? Do your attacks overcome resistance to non magical bludgeoning damage?
An important distinction is that you are making a ranged spell attack, with a ranged weapon. So I’m inclined to believe only the part of sharpshooter that applied is the -5hit +10dam. Perhaps spell sniper can help achieve the first two?
Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls.
Your ranged weapon attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.
Before you make an attack with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage.
Hm... as I read it, Magic Stone is a ranged spell attack, even though it is performed with a sling, not a ranged weapon attack, so Sharpshooter would not work.
I agree with voras. In the magic stone text, it describes how it works when thrown or using a sling. I’d say that is the specific rule, overriding the general rule of how slings work. It would also mean those sling attacks have a range of 60, not 30/120 as a standard sling, just a flat 60.
It is a little bit of a grey area since the ammo being used is now a Magic Stone and it is possibly not even the caster using the sling.
Assuming hits for both a normal sling and a Magic Stone in a sling being able to use Magic Stone ammo in a sling using a ranged weapon attack instead of a ranged spell attack only makes a 1 point difference on average damage.
Normal sling with SS +10 Damage: 12.5
Magic Stone with SS +10 Damage: 13.5
Voras and Xalthu are right about RAW.
I know it is not RAW but a Bonus Action from someone to get an extra 1 damage on attacks (averaged) doesn't seem like a problem to me.
Before you make an attack with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage.
It states “an attack with a ranged weapon,” not “a ranged weapon attack.” That’s an important distinction since it means that the feat applies to darts and slings, but not ranged attacks made with thrown melee weapons like daggers or javelins. Since you would be making “an attack with a ranged weapon,” then yes, technically sharpshooter applies RAW. RAI may be a different matter, but as a DM I’d allow it.
Spell attacks do not suffer disadvantage for attacks made at long range. If one uses a sling to fire a magic stone, then absolutely the range of the attack is extended to 120 feet. That’s the exact reason they put that line in that spell.
Let's throw a wrench into this. Would Sneak Attack or similar features be able to be applied?
Sneak Attack also specifies:
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
So yes, technically it could apply when using a sling to launch the Magic Stone.
Let's throw a wrench into this. Would Sneak Attack or similar features be able to be applied?
Sneak Attack also specifies:
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
So yes, technically it could apply when using a sling to launch the Magic Stone.
Launching a Magic Stone with a Sling is by the spells wording still a ranged spell attack, not a ranged weapon attack.
Let's throw a wrench into this. Would Sneak Attack or similar features be able to be applied?
Sneak Attack also specifies:
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
So yes, technically it could apply when using a sling to launch the Magic Stone.
Launching a Magic Stone with a Sling is by the spells wording still a ranged spell attack, not a ranged weapon attack.
That is irrelevant. Neither Sharpshooter nor Sneak Attack requires “a ranged weapon attack” only “an attack with a ranged weapon.” Using a sling to launch a Magic Stone would be “a ranged spell attack with a ranged weapon.”
That’s an important distinction since it means that the wording of the feat (and the Class Feature) applies to darts and slings, but not ranged attacks made with thrown melee weapons like handaxes or javelins. Since you would be making “an attack with a ranged weapon,” then yes, technically sharpshooter applies RAW. RAI may be a different matter, but as a DM I’d allow it.
I agree with voras. In the magic stone text, it describes how it works when thrown or using a sling. I’d say that is the specific rule, overriding the general rule of how slings work. It would also mean those sling attacks have a range of 60, not 30/120 as a standard sling, just a flat 60.
If this was the case, why mention a sling at all? I originally agreed with you, but why would it include that piece about the sling if you don’t gain anything from it? You can just throw the stone 60ft, no sling needed.
Note, the range is NOT 60 ft, it is 30/120. The spell Magic Stone only says "If THROWN it has a range of 60'." That statement does not apply if used with a sling.
I agree it is a ranged spell attack made with a ranged weapon, as such sneak attack works (just as it does with Shadow blade) and sharpshooter works.
P.S. Most people misinterpret David and Goliath. It is not a story about an underdog (David) vs the the favorite (Goliath). Instead it is a story of an Expert crushing an unskilled but gifted Amateur. Slings are hard to use, size is a gift.
Spell attacks do not suffer disadvantage for attacks made at long range. If one uses a sling to fire a magic stone, then absolutely the range of the attack is extended to 120 feet. That’s the exact reason they put that line in that spell.
You make a good point, I like this interpretation.
I found that Jeremy Crawford weighed in on the topic:
An attack made with magic stone is a spell attack, even if you hurl the stone with a sling. The attack doesn't qualify for anything that requires a weapon attack, but it does work with a feature that requires a ranged weapon if you use a sling. #DnD
He does state that it works for things that require a ranged weapon, but not for things that use a weapon attack (ruling out ranged weapon attacks). I’d say this includes sneak attack, as it stipulates requiring an attack made with a ranged weapon.
Both Sharpshooter and Sneak attack are worded in a fuzzy way, requiring an attack that is made "using" (Sneak Attack) or "with" (Sharpshooter) a ranged weapon, but neither requiring a "ranged weapon attack." Were those special phrases intended to imply "ranged weapon attack" when they were written? Possibly... but also possibly not. It took errata for them to clarify that Unarmed Strikes were "melee weapon attacks" but not "attacks with a melee weapon" after all, so conflating an attack "using a ranged weapon" with a "ranged weapon attack" seems like it would be a mistake.
When you throw a Magic Stone from a Sling, you use that Sling, and you make the attack with it. The precise significance of doing so is fuzzy, as I pointed out in another thread... does it mean that you're making a ranged spell attack that has a close and long range (of which there is no other example anywhere)? Does it mean that you just extend the range of the spell out to the Sling's max range? Unclear... but also unimportant for the question we're asking here. Magic Stoneexplicitly tells us that you can make its attack "with" a Sling, a Sling is a ranged weapon, and features that trigger when an attack is made "with" a ranged weapon unambiguously are satisfied. If "with" is a synonym for "using", than features that trigger when an attack is made "using" a ranged weapon should also be satisfied.
So yes... I think that the RAWest reading, without resorting to any outside JC opinions not supported by rule text, is that both Sharpshooter and Sneak Attack may apply on a Magic Stone used from a Sling. Not only is this RAW, I think it's great , because otherwise there is literally no reason for any character of any build to ever use Magic Stone in any conceivable situation, this at least saves it (and Slings themselves!) from the trash heap of history.
Great way to do something that I can’t imagine coming up. Why would the caster spend their action to let the barbarian spend their action making an attack the caster already could have made? If the pebbles lasted all day, like a good berry, maybe... but you can only make 3, and they only last a minute... pretty darn niche.
Great way to do something that I can’t imagine coming up. Why would the caster spend their action to let the barbarian spend their action making an attack the caster already could have made? If the pebbles lasted all day, like a good berry, maybe... but you can only make 3, and they only last a minute... pretty darn niche.
An caster can hand them to an 11th level Fighter who can use all three/turn.
You have a Sling. You take the Sharpshooter feat. You cast Magic Stone.
How would this interact? Do you get to use your spell casting stat and apply the extra damage of sharpshooter? Do you get to attack at full range without disadvantage? Do your attacks overcome resistance to non magical bludgeoning damage?
An important distinction is that you are making a ranged spell attack, with a ranged weapon. So I’m inclined to believe only the part of sharpshooter that applied is the -5hit +10dam. Perhaps spell sniper can help achieve the first two?
Sling
Magic Stone
Sharpshooter:
Hm... as I read it, Magic Stone is a ranged spell attack, even though it is performed with a sling, not a ranged weapon attack, so Sharpshooter would not work.
I agree with voras. In the magic stone text, it describes how it works when thrown or using a sling. I’d say that is the specific rule, overriding the general rule of how slings work. It would also mean those sling attacks have a range of 60, not 30/120 as a standard sling, just a flat 60.
It is a little bit of a grey area since the ammo being used is now a Magic Stone and it is possibly not even the caster using the sling.
Assuming hits for both a normal sling and a Magic Stone in a sling being able to use Magic Stone ammo in a sling using a ranged weapon attack instead of a ranged spell attack only makes a 1 point difference on average damage.
Normal sling with SS +10 Damage: 12.5
Magic Stone with SS +10 Damage: 13.5
Voras and Xalthu are right about RAW.
I know it is not RAW but a Bonus Action from someone to get an extra 1 damage on attacks (averaged) doesn't seem like a problem to me.
Sharpshooter states:
It states “an attack with a ranged weapon,” not “a ranged weapon attack.” That’s an important distinction since it means that the feat applies to darts and slings, but not ranged attacks made with thrown melee weapons like daggers or javelins. Since you would be making “an attack with a ranged weapon,” then yes, technically sharpshooter applies RAW. RAI may be a different matter, but as a DM I’d allow it.
Spell attacks do not suffer disadvantage for attacks made at long range. If one uses a sling to fire a magic stone, then absolutely the range of the attack is extended to 120 feet. That’s the exact reason they put that line in that spell.
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Let's throw a wrench into this. Would Sneak Attack or similar features be able to be applied?
"The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon."
So, that would also be a no.
Sneak Attack also specifies:
So yes, technically it could apply when using a sling to launch the Magic Stone.
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There is no real difference so there is no wrench.
Magic Stone gives the attack on average a 1 point increase from a normal sling stone.
Having a Sneak Attack do 1 more damage on top of the heavy damage it is already designed to do is pretty minor. This is assuming hit without a crit.
Launching a Magic Stone with a Sling is by the spells wording still a ranged spell attack, not a ranged weapon attack.
That is irrelevant. Neither Sharpshooter nor Sneak Attack requires “a ranged weapon attack” only “an attack with a ranged weapon.” Using a sling to launch a Magic Stone would be “a ranged spell attack with a ranged weapon.”
That’s an important distinction since it means that the wording of the feat (and the Class Feature) applies to darts and slings, but not ranged attacks made with thrown melee weapons like handaxes or javelins. Since you would be making “an attack with a ranged weapon,” then yes, technically sharpshooter applies RAW. RAI may be a different matter, but as a DM I’d allow it.
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If this was the case, why mention a sling at all? I originally agreed with you, but why would it include that piece about the sling if you don’t gain anything from it? You can just throw the stone 60ft, no sling needed.
Note, the range is NOT 60 ft, it is 30/120. The spell Magic Stone only says "If THROWN it has a range of 60'." That statement does not apply if used with a sling.
I agree it is a ranged spell attack made with a ranged weapon, as such sneak attack works (just as it does with Shadow blade) and sharpshooter works.
P.S. Most people misinterpret David and Goliath. It is not a story about an underdog (David) vs the the favorite (Goliath). Instead it is a story of an Expert crushing an unskilled but gifted Amateur. Slings are hard to use, size is a gift.
You make a good point, I like this interpretation.
I found that Jeremy Crawford weighed in on the topic:
An attack made with magic stone is a spell attack, even if you hurl the stone with a sling. The attack doesn't qualify for anything that requires a weapon attack, but it does work with a feature that requires a ranged weapon if you use a sling. #DnD
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/2018/02/15/can-you-confirm-whether-magic-stone-is-meant-to-be-treated-in-any-way-as-a-weapon-attack/amp/
He does state that it works for things that require a ranged weapon, but not for things that use a weapon attack (ruling out ranged weapon attacks). I’d say this includes sneak attack, as it stipulates requiring an attack made with a ranged weapon.
JC's opinion is his opinion.
Both Sharpshooter and Sneak attack are worded in a fuzzy way, requiring an attack that is made "using" (Sneak Attack) or "with" (Sharpshooter) a ranged weapon, but neither requiring a "ranged weapon attack." Were those special phrases intended to imply "ranged weapon attack" when they were written? Possibly... but also possibly not. It took errata for them to clarify that Unarmed Strikes were "melee weapon attacks" but not "attacks with a melee weapon" after all, so conflating an attack "using a ranged weapon" with a "ranged weapon attack" seems like it would be a mistake.
When you throw a Magic Stone from a Sling, you use that Sling, and you make the attack with it. The precise significance of doing so is fuzzy, as I pointed out in another thread... does it mean that you're making a ranged spell attack that has a close and long range (of which there is no other example anywhere)? Does it mean that you just extend the range of the spell out to the Sling's max range? Unclear... but also unimportant for the question we're asking here. Magic Stone explicitly tells us that you can make its attack "with" a Sling, a Sling is a ranged weapon, and features that trigger when an attack is made "with" a ranged weapon unambiguously are satisfied. If "with" is a synonym for "using", than features that trigger when an attack is made "using" a ranged weapon should also be satisfied.
So yes... I think that the RAWest reading, without resorting to any outside JC opinions not supported by rule text, is that both Sharpshooter and Sneak Attack may apply on a Magic Stone used from a Sling. Not only is this RAW, I think it's great , because otherwise there is literally no reason for any character of any build to ever use Magic Stone in any conceivable situation, this at least saves it (and Slings themselves!) from the trash heap of history.
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I think Magic Stone is a much maligned spell. It’s a great way to give a nonspellcaster a ranged spell attack out to 120 feet.
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Great way to do something that I can’t imagine coming up. Why would the caster spend their action to let the barbarian spend their action making an attack the caster already could have made? If the pebbles lasted all day, like a good berry, maybe... but you can only make 3, and they only last a minute... pretty darn niche.
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An caster can hand them to an 11th level Fighter who can use all three/turn.
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No he can’t. It’s a special action ranged spell attack granted by casting the spell, not a weapon.
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