The thread is actually not comparing the BM and the champion. It is asking whether it is useful. it is a fighter, so it is pretty good. It is not AS good as the BM but it is not objectively bad. If you specifically wan't a crit fisher, the champion is great
I agree that comparing to the BM is not the point (and I wrote it). Being able to crit on 19/20 instead of just 20 is obviously useful. It’s better than not having it.
The point is that it overall amounts to very little additional average damage per attack, because of the crit mechanics. You can certainly choose some specific builds and feats to make it better, but still still nothing great.
Jounich, correct. Nobody forced me to make this thread, I chose to. That doesn't make it "shenanigans" when I say I don't have a predisposition to want to bash the Champion. Everyone has their own opinion about classes and subclasses. I shared mine, I am defending mine, and I am open to having my mind changed.
"It doesn't matter, to you, if they raise any legitimate points."
Actually, some points I have agreed with and even made myself, and other points I simply don't agree with. How do you distinguish between someone not caring if a point is legitimate, and someone who merely disagrees that it *is* legitimate?
"You keep comparing it to the Battle Master."
I'm not the one who even brought up Battle Master, someone else did. And that's where the conversation remained for some time, and I offered my own input. I think Battle Master is a great subclass, but it's not my even favorite Fighter subclass.
"There are now...what, nine martial archetypes for Fighters? And all you seem to care about is that the Champion isn't as good as (whatever that means) the Battle Master."
This thread is ABOUT the Champion, so do you mean to say I'm staying on topic?
"You don't care for an honest discussion. You're myopic and want people to fight with. I get that COVID is giving everyone a case of cabin fever, but there are more constructive ways of engaging with others."
In formal argumentation this is what's referred to as an ad hominem fallacy.
I wasn't aware this was formal argumentation. But, since you opened the gate, during formal argumentation, personal attacks can be, and sometimes are, relevant. For example, when the corruption and dishonesty of someone running for public office should disqualify them from holding said public office. It's permissible to call someone out for being a crook when they're a crook. Not that I'm calling anyone here a crook, but you should be able to recognize snark when you see it.
My question, one I have asked repeatedly and you have repeatedly chosen to ignore, is why did you start this thread? Because, it seems plain, that you do not care for having an actual discussion. You're not looking for anyone to sell you on the archetype. You weren't asking for second and third opinions in your OP. You weren't looking to discuss its merits or how to make the most of it for those who want to, and you're still not. (Which, if we're being honest, should be the point of any thread in a subforum titled Tips & Tactics.) You have been rude, if not outright malicious, since the outset. And by bringing up formal argumentation, you validate the criticism that you are doing this just to argue. The reasons don't matter and never did.
This could have been a friendly conversation. You set the tone. You had one reply before you clapped back, calling the champion "mechanically abysmal" without even defining the term. It's lazy. White Room theorycrafting can be fun, even cathartic, but it's also, ultimately, meaningless. Because party and enemy composition change the circumstances of the test. The sooner you all learn that, the happier you'll be.
I'll crunch some more numbers later, when I have the time, and drop in another analysis. If it'll turn just one head, It'll be worth it.
It doesn't matter if it's a formal debate or a casual conversation. Logic and still logic. A personal criticism or accusation can be relevant if it's supporting the proposition.
Proposition: Tom would make a bad sentator because he is has a history of corruption. (not fallacious)
Proposition: Improved Critical does adequate damage, because the person who said it does not is dishonest. (fallacious)
Contrary to what you claim, if I overlooked or miscalculated something with the Champion, I absolutely do want to know about it. It would open up a new character option for me, and (with all things) I seek to align my beliefs and opinions with reality as much as possible.
I haven't answered your question about why I made this thread, because of the manner in which you asked it. I don't answer to you and I owe you no explanation. I've responded *to* rudeness with rudeness. What did you think, that you could just talk to someone any old way and not expect the same in return? There's one exception, when I misunderstood another poster and I apologized to that person.
Numbers don't lie, but the people working those numbers can use them incorrectly. If you're taking a math test in school and you use the wrong equation to answer the question, then you failed to answer the question. It doesn't matter if you completed the equation perfectly, arriving at a different answer, or arrived at the correct answer despite using the wrong formula. The methodology is important, and we have to check ourselves.
Your claim that the greatsword only ever adds 0.35 DPR per +5% is fallacious on its face, and I can't believe that after nearly 15 full pages you still haven't figured out why. It's because your numbers assume that every attack hits, even a natural 1, which is impossible. You have to factor in the actual hit chance to get an accurate result. And that's...I won't say impossible to do, but it is tedious. Because you have to factor in all possible attack bonuses and the AC they're being put up against. And, let's face it, is beyond the scope of this thread, so let's keep it simple and focus just on the actual crit chance. Because, and I'll tell you right now, the bonus actually decreases the lower the AC of the target is. Which is why your numbers are so off. You, whether you meant to or not, devalued the feature to below what's minimally possible.
Take the Noble Fighter pregen from LMoP, for example. At 3rd level, it has a +6 to hit with Talon and does 1d10+4 slashing damage on a base hit. Now, compare that with two CR 1/2 creatures, the hobgoblin (AC 18) and the orc (AC 13); both of which can be encountered in Chapter 3. Improved Critical alone provides a DPR boost of +6.9% against the hobgoblin, but only +4.55% against the orc. Again, whether you meant to or not, you skewed the math down and against the Champion. But I digress. Let's look at the raw percent chances; the natural numbers on the die.
1 die is 5%
2 dice (Advantage or Extra Attack) is 9.75% 2 dice (Advantage/Extra Attack + Improved Critical) is 19%
4 dice (Advantage + Extra Attack) is 18.55% 4 dice (Advantage + Extra Attack + Improved Critical) is 34.39%
Fighters ONLY
3 dice (Extra Attack 2) is 14.26% 3 dice (Extra Attack 2 + Improved Critical) is 27.1% 3 dice (Extra Attack 2 + Superior Critical) is 38.59%
6 dice (Advantage + Extra Attack 2) is 26.49% 6 dice (Advantage + Extra Attack 2 + Improved Critical) is 46.86% 6 Dice (Advantage + Extra Attack 2 + Superior Critical) is 62.28%
I'm not going to bother factoring in Action Surge, Extra Attack (3), or Feats. Lest anyone forget, GWM means a 4th or 5th attack, overall, on a crit. All that is more number-crunching than I feel like doing today. But I would hope that, by now, the point has been made. It's a lot better than people think. And looking at these classes and archetypes in a vacuum does them all a disservice when we're ostensibly playing co-op.
Go ahead, but your doesn’t hold up in practicality. Kinda like Mike Tyson says, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. Guy (our fighter) had great weapon fighting, great weapon master, lucky,and a majority of the time my wizard had cat greater invis on him for advantage on just about every attack (true sight borked it a few times). We found that Haste had too much downside when concentration broke of losing and entire turn so we switched over to greater invis mostly. Throw in some magic items that further skews the numbers that I’m sure weren’t accounting for an actual party that helps each other maximize their potential.
Not a bad idea to run the numbers to see if a build may be viable, by all means do that! It would suck to have a build that just didn’t measure up against other party members as you go up. The Champion is not bad, does massive amounts of damage, and isn’t super complex so easier to play at its highest potential.
So let me get this straight. Your Champion had Great Weapon Master, Lucky, and he spent the majority of the time fighting while invisible..... and he did massive amounts of damage... which vindicates Improved Critical as a subclass feature....
Um yeah, he built his character correctly and did massive amounts of damage as a fighter. That's what that subclass is supposed to do. Why would you not take feats that compliment your class and have good party composition? This is where the math doesn't hold up as it isn't taking into account other variables that are present during actual gameplay. Yes, my Wizard isn't a moron and helped his party become better at their roles.
GWM, Lucky, or Greater Invisibility does massive extra damage with or without Improved Critical. So how do you figure out how much *Improved Critical* contributed? You do the math, which you don't want to rely on.
Improved critical gives you triple the crit chance of any other build, 5% up to 15%, pretty easy math there. Advantage on every attack only amplifies those chances. With GWM you get an extra attack if you crit as well so now more attacks than any other build (at least 15% of the time). Not only that, there is NO LIMIT to improved critical! The longer you fight, the better a Champion is as there isn't a limit as there are to superiority dice. Not to mention you will never start a fight under half health or insta heal half your health after a fight so your healers can conserve resources is pretty huge.
Basically, the Champion subclass is not bad. Real world actual gameplay, not theory crafting or mathematical calculations, actual gameplay they are good. Good for what they are there for which is damage dealing, not super versatile like a BM or Eldritch Knight (I personally love my EK) so if you want that, then don't look at a Champion.
GWM: allows a character to use a bonus action to attack AGAIN, if a creature dies or the character scores a critical hit.
LUCKY: allows a character to roll an additional D20 for attack rolls (, ability checks and saving throws) up to 3 times per long rest.
GREATER INVISIBILITY: gives advantage. See the Invisible condition.
These feats and conditions benefit ANY class. But, it benefits the Champion 3 times more. Or as you like to math:
P=.05 on a 20
P=0.1 on a 19-20
P=.15 on a 18-20
It is FACT that I have said many, many times that certain builds and feats can improve IC, correct? So how am I being “belligerent”? Let’s look at GWM by the numbers:
R: Is regular Fighter with no subclass, C: is Champion with Improved Critical. Parameters: 2 Attacks, 60% chance to hit, +4 damage.
Damage per Attack no GWM
R: (7 + 4) x 0.6 + 0.35 = 6.95
C: (7 + 4) x 0.6 + 0.70 = 7.3
Champion gets 5% additional damage
With GWM (not adding -5/+10) - 2 attacks
R: 9.75% chance to crit and get an additional attack
C: 19% chance to crit and get an additional attack
2 attacks per turn
R: 13.9 damage per turn
C: 14.6 damage per turn
R: 9.75% chance to crit and get an additional attack
C: 19% chance to crit and get an additional attack
R: 13.9 + (6.95 x .0975) =14.577625 damage per turn
C: 14.6 + (7.3 x .19) = 15.987 damage per turn
With GWM, Champion gets 9.67% more damage per attack. This is the mathematical equivalent to doing 10.967 damage instead of 10.
Appropriately invoking the (-5 +10) damage lowers the percent increase from GWM.
More attacks per main action dramatically reduces it.
Adding Polearm Master almost completely nullifies it.
2 dice (Advantage or Extra Attack) is 9.75% 2 dice (Advantage/Extra Attack + Improved Critical) is 19%
I made this same mistake when I was trying to wrap my head around this.
Rolling for advantage is not the same thing as getting Extra Attack. When you roll for advantage, you roll 2 dice and pick the best one. When you roll Extra Attack, you roll 2 dice in a row, and you don't get to pick. You have to use both.
2 dice (Advantage or Extra Attack) is 9.75% 2 dice (Advantage/Extra Attack + Improved Critical) is 19%
I made this same mistake when I was trying to wrap my head around this.
Rolling for advantage is not the same thing as getting Extra Attack. When you roll for advantage, you roll 2 dice and pick the best one. When you roll Extra Attack, you roll 2 dice in a row, and you don't get to pick. You have to use both.
The issue is how many dice are we rolling to reach a target number on the die. In the above case, 19. And no matter what, we're still rolling only two dice. It doesn't get more complicated until we roll higher. And, even then, we can still multiple the failure chance of getting an 18 or lower (0.81) times itself for each die rolled. The results are identical.
It doesn't matter if I roll 0.9^4 or 0.81^2, the result is the same. Let me go into more detail. I'm going to use Deadlands (Savage Worlds) as an example. That's where I learned all this.
Say you want to shoot someone with a Winchester '73, so the target number is 4. You have a d4 skill die and a d6 wild die (every PC, or Wild Card, has a wild die). Your chance of hitting them is 62.5% because you multiple the failure chance on each die together to find your net failure chance. (0.75*0.5=0.375 chance of failure.) The inverse of that is your chance of success. A different character with a d6 shooting die has a 75% chance of hitting the target.
D&D makes it a little easier since, basically, everything but dealing damage is resolved with a d20. Advantage, or two straight attacks, just means squaring the die. The same Noble Fighter from above, who has a 19% chance of getting a critical hit, has only a 45% chance of hitting with their single attack if it's done straight, but they also have a 69.75% chance if it's done with advantage. If they're 5th level, with Extra Attack and an 18 Strength, then each attack roll has an independent 55% chance of landing. If attacking straight, they have a 79.75% chance landing at least one attack; which is the same as if they were making one attack with advantage.
2 dice (Advantage or Extra Attack) is 9.75% 2 dice (Advantage/Extra Attack + Improved Critical) is 19%
I made this same mistake when I was trying to wrap my head around this.
Rolling for advantage is not the same thing as getting Extra Attack. When you roll for advantage, you roll 2 dice and pick the best one. When you roll Extra Attack, you roll 2 dice in a row, and you don't get to pick. You have to use both.
I know. Those are the numbers I used. For GWM and 2 attacks, it’s the mathematical equivalent of rolling with advantage.
It is FACT that I have said many, many times that certain builds and feats can improve IC, correct? So how am I being “belligerent”? Let’s look at GWM by the numbers:
R: Is regular Fighter with no subclass, C: is Champion with Improved Critical. Parameters: 2 Attacks, 60% chance to hit, +4 damage.
Damage per Attack no GWM
R: (7 + 4) x 0.6 + 0.35 = 6.95
C: (7 + 4) x 0.6 + 0.70 = 7.3
Champion gets 5% additional damage
With GWM (not adding -5/+10) - 2 attacks
R: 9.75% chance to crit and get an additional attack
C: 19% chance to crit and get an additional attack
R: 6.95 + (6.95 x .0975) =7.627625 damage per attack
C: 7.3 + (7.3 x .19) = 8.687 damage per attack
Champion gets 13.89% more damage per attack. This is the mathematical equivalent to doing 11.388 damage instead of 10.
Appropriately invoking the (-5 +10) damage lowers the percent increase from GWM.
More attacks per main action dramatically reduces it.
Adding Polearm Master almost completely nullifies it.
I have been learning. So let me try to simplify your parameters:
First, if the variable is on both sides of the equation, you can cancel them out. In other words,
if you use 1 attack, 2 attacks, 10 attacks, as long as you do the same for both, they are irrelevant.
If you assume a damage bonus that is the same for both, they are irrelevant.
If you are using the same average damage (ie: the same weapon) for both, the magnitude is irrelevant. Just set it to 1.
OK, next thing to tackle is % chance to hit. Because it does matter. You can't just assign a value, because the % chance to crit is a variable!
Where,
P = chance to Hit = 60% or 0.6 per your parameters
C = chance to Crit = 0.05 for non-Champion. 0.1 for Champion with Improved Critical
DPH = Averaged Damage per Hit = 1 (to make the math easy)
DPC = Averaged Damage per Crit = 2 (a crit is double the average damage per hit)
E (damage) = (P - C) * DPH + C * DPC
For the Regular fighter: E = (0.6-0.05) * 1 + (0.05) * 2 = 0.65 damage (averaged)
For the Champion: E = (0.6 - 0.1) * 1 + (0.1) * 2 = 0.70 damage (averaged)
The Champion gets 7.14% extra damage [(0.7-0.65)/0.7 * 100%] with no GWM over the Regular fighter.
Now, with GWM adding the extra dice in damage (ignoring the -5/+10 that is equal for both fighters) for crits:
P = chance to Hit = 60% or 0.6 per your parameters
C = chance to Crit = 0.05 for non-Champion. 0.1 for Champion with Improved Critical
DPH = Averaged Damage per Hit = 1 (to make the math easy)
DPC: DPH * 2 + DPH = 3
E (damage) = (P - C) * DPH + C * DPC
For the Regular fighter: E = (0.6-0.05) * 1 + (0.05) * 3 = 0.70 damage (averaged)
For the Champion: E = (0.6 - 0.1) * 1 + (0.1) * 3 = 0.80 damage (averaged)
The Champion gets 12.5% extra damage [(0.8-0.7)/0.8 * 100%] over the Regular Fighter.
Now with GWM and Half-Orc Trait:
DPC: DPH * 2 + DPH + DPH = 4
E (damage) = (P - C) * DPH + C * DPC
For the Regular fighter: E = (0.6-0.05) * 1 + (0.05) * 4 = 0.75 damage (averaged)
For the Champion: E = (0.6 - 0.1) * 1 + (0.1) * 4 = 0.90 damage (averaged)
The Champion gets 16.7% extra damage [(0.9-0.75)/0.9 * 100%] over the Regular Fighter.
Now with GWM and Half-Orc and Advantage:
P = chance to Hit = 60% or 0.6 per your parameters
C = chance to Crit = 0.0975 for non-Champion. 0.19 for Champion with Improved Critical
DPH = Averaged Damage per Hit = 1 (to make the math easy)
DPC: DPH * 2 + DPH = 3
For the Regular fighter: E = (0.6-0.0975) * 1 + (0.0975) * 4 = 0.8205 damage (averaged)
For the Champion: E = (0.6 - 0.19) * 1 + (0.19) * 4 = 1.17 damage (averaged)
The Champion gets 29.9% extra damage [(1.17-0.8205)/1.17 * 100%] over the Regular Fighter.
And by level 6, the Half-Orc could have GWM and Piercer feats. So they roll even more damage on crits, which would allow the Champion to pull away even more.
Kerric, you missed my edit. I caught my own mistake. It’s actually only 9.67% with GWM. I’m with people, but so I’ll check your numbers later. For now you’re making conceptual errors.
You if you use 1 attack, 2 attacks, 10 attacks, as long as you do the same for both, they are irrelevant.
When you’re calculating the added damage per attack for GWM’s extra attack... if you’re still single attack, you can make 1 bonus action attack per 1 attack. You’re you make 4 attacks, you can gain a maximum of 1 attack for every FOUR attacks. So no, it’s not irrelevant.
You: “If you assume a damage bonus that is the same for both, they are irrelevant.”
Not if you’re calculating the percent increase of your base, normal damage, nor to figure the total damage per attack. It’s absurd to say otherwise.
You: If you are using the same average damage (ie: the same weapon) for both, the magnitude is irrelevant. Just set it to 1.
Again, not if you’re trying to figure out a percent increase of total damage.
Improved critical gives you triple the crit chance of any other build, 5% up to 15%, pretty easy math there. Advantage on every attack only amplifies those chances. With GWM you get an extra attack if you crit as well so now more attacks than any other build (at least 15% of the time). Not only that, there is NO LIMIT to improved critical! The longer you fight, the better a Champion is as there isn't a limit as there are to superiority dice. Not to mention you will never start a fight under half health or insta heal half your health after a fight so your healers can conserve resources is pretty huge.
That's all true at 15+, the issue is that the subclass is abysmal at 3rd level and doesn't start to take off until level 11+, when most gameplay happens at levels 5-10.
I have been learning. So let me try to simplify your parameters:
Let me help you out a little, if you don't mind.
DPC = Averaged Damage per Crit = 2 (a crit is double the average damage per hit)
This really isn't a good assumption since crits can't double fixed numeric bonuses. This overestimates the crit damage.
E (damage) = (P - C) * DPH + C * DPC
A simpler and more general equation is P * DPH + C * crit bonus, where "crit bonus" is the damage dice that get rerolled and any crit-specific bonuses like Brutal Critical.
Also as a rule of thumb you really wanna be using single-letter variables, makes writing out the algebra a lot easier. If you change DPH to d and crit bonus to b, the whole thing just becomes pd + cb.
The Champion gets 29.9% extra damage [(1.17-0.8205)/1.17 * 100%] over the Regular Fighter.
And by level 6, the Half-Orc could have GWM and Piercer feats. So they roll even more damage on crits, which would allow the Champion to pull away even more.
There's a slight wrinkle here in assuming GWM and Piercer are the optimal choice just because you're going for a crit build. If you're taking these feats before level 8 you're definitely giving up ASIs that could've increased your hit rate and every hit's damage, resulting in a bigger increase to your average damage.
For example a level 5 Champion w/ GWM, 16 STR, a 60% chance to hit and a lance (6.5 + 3 damage plus another 6.5 on crits) will average 2.19 * (0.6*9.5 + 0.1*6.5) = 13.9065 damage (the 2.19 is 2 for two attacks + a 19% chance of scoring a crit and getting a third attack with your bonus action.) Of course I've ignored the -5/+10 aspect of GWM, but that'd actually result in a net loss in this situation unless you have advantage.
If the same Champion had taken +2 STR instead of GWM they'd be doing 2 * (0.65*10.5 + 0.1*6.5) = 14.95 damage instead. And obviously if GWM barely makes sense over the ASI for the Champion, it makes even less sense on a non-Champion build that's less likely to score a crit.
Piercer has the same problem unless you start with 17 STR so the +1 STR bumps you up to a +4 modifier.
Kerric, your formulas are nonsensical as is your starting point.
YOU: “______________________________
P = chance to Hit = 60% or 0.6 per your parameters
C = chance to Crit = 0.05 for non-Champion. 0.1 for Champion with Improved Critical
DAH = Averaged Damage per Hit = 1 (to make the math easy)
DPC: DPH * 2 + DPH = 3 _________________ “
There is NO conceivable way to only average 1 damage per hit. And that profoundly affects the numbers. Not only does the total damage matter, how much of it that comes from dice verses how much that comes from non-dice matters, a lot.
You’ve artificially deflated damage per hit down to 1, and then considered ALL of it to be dice damage. AND you’re inappropriately tripling the base damage to represent a crit.
I know you want to make the math easier, but I prefer that it’s accurate.
Problem with the Brute is that it has a lot of style overlap with the Barbarian. A class designed for crit fishing isn't inherently a bad idea, it just needs better numbers, particularly at low level.
Problem with the Brute is that it has a lot of style overlap with the Barbarian. A class designed for crit fishing isn't inherently a bad idea, it just needs better numbers, particularly at low level.
Hard disagree with barbarian similarities.
The only overlap is extra damage which basically every fighter subclass gets.
They did not get:
1. Damage mitigation
2. Advantage on STR checks/saves
The funny thing is Rune Knight has much more overlap with barbarian. They get the giant form with extra damage and ADV on str checks/saves and hill rune gives BPS resistance.
The only real "overlap" brute has was "simple fighter who hits" which is already what champion is so no real design space is stepped on.
With the new PHB survey that just came out I am hopeful they relook at some of the PHB subclasses. Champion fails on a lot of levels as it has a bland thematic angle, poor mechanics at its heart (3rd level), and odd design choices (Remarkable Athlete).
The improved critical is only good if you are making a really high number of attacks per day suggesting you have to have 6+ encounters a day with no short rest to oust the other fighter options. Also heavily incentivizes STR builds but gives no inherent way to offset the -5 from GWM so is just worse off by doing so than other builds.
Thematically its just "you are slightly better at hitting stuff" until 7th level...then Remarkable Athlete gives you half PB on stuff you aren't already PROF in....which is whelming.
Initiative is the best use of this ability but the best you ever get is +3 to that...which is not terrible but also not great either.
The synergies with Crusher and Piercer/Slasher on a PAM Champion are pretty good. Forget GWM/DPR calculations, the extra crit effects applying to your targets is more important than just damage. Without GWM you hit more often (letting you apply movement reduction and shoving effects each round), and with a high chance of crits it really starts to shine when you impose advantage for your allies, or disadvantage for your enemy.
Also: there *needs* to be classes that are simple like Barbarian, Champion etc. This is also a learning curve for new or younger players that want to just roll a bunch of dice and not have five options every round. Stop trying to make everything so freaking complex.
The synergies with Crusher and Piercer/Slasher on a PAM Champion are pretty good. Forget GWM/DPR calculations, the extra crit effects applying to your targets is more important than just damage. Without GWM you hit more often (letting you apply movement reduction and shoving effects each round), and with a high chance of crits it really starts to shine when you impose advantage for your allies, or disadvantage for your enemy.
Also: there *needs* to be classes that are simple like Barbarian, Champion etc. This is also a learning curve for new or younger players that want to just roll a bunch of dice and not have five options every round. Stop trying to make everything so freaking complex.
Also any fighter can pick up crusher in conjunction with GWM and use a maul so its not like champ has the market tapped on that one. And a GWM battlemaster can already get ADV through trip attack so its mostly down to the 5ft movement each turn which is fine.
Not to mention with their other maneuver choices they get a large array of better options to help out.
You can have simple yet interesting. Samurai is a better effort on their part for a "simple" fighter that a lot of people find more interesting. I personally do not but I know its a subclass that people like because I see it a lot.
Its just poorly thought out in terms of what you want to deliver from it....a bunch of passive stuff is OK if it actually delivers on what it is suppose to do. The problem with Champion is it doesn't so you are left with a underperforming, simple subclass that relies on the DM to make more interesting with magic items or homebrew fixes.
Its honestly kind of a trap option for new players and I wouldn't suggest it for them. I would help them with a more interesting and better designed subclass.
The subclass isn't bad, but it is lopsided and bland. Most people want to see results ASAP, which many will not see the Champion provide, especially when compared to the other fighter subclasses that give options the players can choose to activate immediately.
Has anyone seen the look on a barbarian player's face when they roll a crit, grab a fistful of d12s and roll them? How about paladin or rogue players with their d8s and d6s, respectfully? A cleric with Divine Strikes swinging their mace while casting booming blade? 3 levels in Champion fighter lets them do that twice as often.
The multiclassing potential cannot be ignored for these arguments, and I feel in this regard the subclasses are much more balanced.
The subclass isn't bad, but it is lopsided and bland. Most people want to see results ASAP, which many will not see the Champion provide, especially when compared to the other fighter subclasses that give options the players can choose to activate immediately.
Has anyone seen the look on a barbarian player's face when they roll a crit, grab a fistful of d12s and roll them? How about paladin or rogue players with their d8s and d6s, respectfully? A cleric with Divine Strikes swinging their mace while casting booming blade? 3 levels in Champion fighter lets them do that twice as often. The multiclassing potential cannot be ignored for these arguments, and I feel in this regard the subclasses are much more balanced.
Oh yeah it's a great multi class for sure no argument there!
The problem with Champion as a fighter archetype is that the fighter class itself is poorly equipped to utilize those juicy crits.
More, smaller attacks typically means only 1 or 2 dice get added onto each crit, and having such high amounts of attacks encourages increasing the damage modifier, which doesn't get doubled on a crit; it's why PAM+GWM and CbE+SS fighters are a thing, and neither of them really benefit from being on a Champion.
One situation that comes to mind that the Champion definitely beats the other two is the drawn-out HAM slugfest; the others have likely exhausted their resources over 10+ rounds while the Champion continues to whale on them, regenerating HP while crits continue to throw out extra dice.
However, this ideal scenario can almost never happen as level 18 games are very rare and D&D is a resource management game, encouraging teams to end fights as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Combat encounters are treated as DPR races, so BMs likely blow all their dice over 2-3 rounds to minimize healing afterwards. They then take a short rest and get everything back; rinse, repeat. In comparison, the Champion crits maybe once more than the BM, doing 1d8-10 or 2d6s more than than a baseline fighter vs BM's 4d8.
I agree that comparing to the BM is not the point (and I wrote it). Being able to crit on 19/20 instead of just 20 is obviously useful. It’s better than not having it.
The point is that it overall amounts to very little additional average damage per attack, because of the crit mechanics. You can certainly choose some specific builds and feats to make it better, but still still nothing great.
Numbers don't lie, but the people working those numbers can use them incorrectly. If you're taking a math test in school and you use the wrong equation to answer the question, then you failed to answer the question. It doesn't matter if you completed the equation perfectly, arriving at a different answer, or arrived at the correct answer despite using the wrong formula. The methodology is important, and we have to check ourselves.
Your claim that the greatsword only ever adds 0.35 DPR per +5% is fallacious on its face, and I can't believe that after nearly 15 full pages you still haven't figured out why. It's because your numbers assume that every attack hits, even a natural 1, which is impossible. You have to factor in the actual hit chance to get an accurate result. And that's...I won't say impossible to do, but it is tedious. Because you have to factor in all possible attack bonuses and the AC they're being put up against. And, let's face it, is beyond the scope of this thread, so let's keep it simple and focus just on the actual crit chance. Because, and I'll tell you right now, the bonus actually decreases the lower the AC of the target is. Which is why your numbers are so off. You, whether you meant to or not, devalued the feature to below what's minimally possible.
Take the Noble Fighter pregen from LMoP, for example. At 3rd level, it has a +6 to hit with Talon and does 1d10+4 slashing damage on a base hit. Now, compare that with two CR 1/2 creatures, the hobgoblin (AC 18) and the orc (AC 13); both of which can be encountered in Chapter 3. Improved Critical alone provides a DPR boost of +6.9% against the hobgoblin, but only +4.55% against the orc. Again, whether you meant to or not, you skewed the math down and against the Champion. But I digress. Let's look at the raw percent chances; the natural numbers on the die.
1 die is 5%
2 dice (Advantage or Extra Attack) is 9.75%
2 dice (Advantage/Extra Attack + Improved Critical) is 19%
4 dice (Advantage + Extra Attack) is 18.55%
4 dice (Advantage + Extra Attack + Improved Critical) is 34.39%
Fighters ONLY
3 dice (Extra Attack 2) is 14.26%
3 dice (Extra Attack 2 + Improved Critical) is 27.1%
3 dice (Extra Attack 2 + Superior Critical) is 38.59%
6 dice (Advantage + Extra Attack 2) is 26.49%
6 dice (Advantage + Extra Attack 2 + Improved Critical) is 46.86%
6 Dice (Advantage + Extra Attack 2 + Superior Critical) is 62.28%
I'm not going to bother factoring in Action Surge, Extra Attack (3), or Feats. Lest anyone forget, GWM means a 4th or 5th attack, overall, on a crit. All that is more number-crunching than I feel like doing today. But I would hope that, by now, the point has been made. It's a lot better than people think. And looking at these classes and archetypes in a vacuum does them all a disservice when we're ostensibly playing co-op.
Improved critical gives you triple the crit chance of any other build, 5% up to 15%, pretty easy math there. Advantage on every attack only amplifies those chances. With GWM you get an extra attack if you crit as well so now more attacks than any other build (at least 15% of the time). Not only that, there is NO LIMIT to improved critical! The longer you fight, the better a Champion is as there isn't a limit as there are to superiority dice. Not to mention you will never start a fight under half health or insta heal half your health after a fight so your healers can conserve resources is pretty huge.
Basically, the Champion subclass is not bad. Real world actual gameplay, not theory crafting or mathematical calculations, actual gameplay they are good. Good for what they are there for which is damage dealing, not super versatile like a BM or Eldritch Knight (I personally love my EK) so if you want that, then don't look at a Champion.
It is FACT that I have said many, many times that certain builds and feats can improve IC, correct? So how am I being “belligerent”? Let’s look at GWM by the numbers:
R: Is regular Fighter with no subclass, C: is Champion with Improved Critical. Parameters: 2 Attacks, 60% chance to hit, +4 damage.
Damage per Attack no GWM
R: (7 + 4) x 0.6 + 0.35 = 6.95
C: (7 + 4) x 0.6 + 0.70 = 7.3
Champion gets 5% additional damage
With GWM (not adding -5/+10) - 2 attacks
R: 9.75% chance to crit and get an additional attack
C: 19% chance to crit and get an additional attack
2 attacks per turn
R: 13.9 damage per turn
C: 14.6 damage per turn
R: 9.75% chance to crit and get an additional attack
C: 19% chance to crit and get an additional attack
R: 13.9 + (6.95 x .0975) = 14.577625 damage per turn
C: 14.6 + (7.3 x .19) = 15.987 damage per turn
With GWM, Champion gets 9.67% more damage per attack. This is the mathematical equivalent to doing 10.967 damage instead of 10.
Appropriately invoking the (-5 +10) damage lowers the percent increase from GWM.
More attacks per main action dramatically reduces it.
Adding Polearm Master almost completely nullifies it.
1 die is 5%
2 dice (Advantage or Extra Attack) is 9.75%
2 dice (Advantage/Extra Attack + Improved Critical) is 19%
I made this same mistake when I was trying to wrap my head around this.
Rolling for advantage is not the same thing as getting Extra Attack. When you roll for advantage, you roll 2 dice and pick the best one. When you roll Extra Attack, you roll 2 dice in a row, and you don't get to pick. You have to use both.
The issue is how many dice are we rolling to reach a target number on the die. In the above case, 19. And no matter what, we're still rolling only two dice. It doesn't get more complicated until we roll higher. And, even then, we can still multiple the failure chance of getting an 18 or lower (0.81) times itself for each die rolled. The results are identical.
It doesn't matter if I roll 0.9^4 or 0.81^2, the result is the same. Let me go into more detail. I'm going to use Deadlands (Savage Worlds) as an example. That's where I learned all this.
Say you want to shoot someone with a Winchester '73, so the target number is 4. You have a d4 skill die and a d6 wild die (every PC, or Wild Card, has a wild die). Your chance of hitting them is 62.5% because you multiple the failure chance on each die together to find your net failure chance. (0.75*0.5=0.375 chance of failure.) The inverse of that is your chance of success. A different character with a d6 shooting die has a 75% chance of hitting the target.
D&D makes it a little easier since, basically, everything but dealing damage is resolved with a d20. Advantage, or two straight attacks, just means squaring the die. The same Noble Fighter from above, who has a 19% chance of getting a critical hit, has only a 45% chance of hitting with their single attack if it's done straight, but they also have a 69.75% chance if it's done with advantage. If they're 5th level, with Extra Attack and an 18 Strength, then each attack roll has an independent 55% chance of landing. If attacking straight, they have a 79.75% chance landing at least one attack; which is the same as if they were making one attack with advantage.
I know. Those are the numbers I used. For GWM and 2 attacks, it’s the mathematical equivalent of rolling with advantage.
I have been learning. So let me try to simplify your parameters:
First, if the variable is on both sides of the equation, you can cancel them out. In other words,
OK, next thing to tackle is % chance to hit. Because it does matter. You can't just assign a value, because the % chance to crit is a variable!
Where,
E (damage) = (P - C) * DPH + C * DPC
For the Regular fighter: E = (0.6-0.05) * 1 + (0.05) * 2 = 0.65 damage (averaged)
For the Champion: E = (0.6 - 0.1) * 1 + (0.1) * 2 = 0.70 damage (averaged)
The Champion gets 7.14% extra damage [(0.7-0.65)/0.7 * 100%] with no GWM over the Regular fighter.
Now, with GWM adding the extra dice in damage (ignoring the -5/+10 that is equal for both fighters) for crits:
E (damage) = (P - C) * DPH + C * DPC
For the Regular fighter: E = (0.6-0.05) * 1 + (0.05) * 3 = 0.70 damage (averaged)
For the Champion: E = (0.6 - 0.1) * 1 + (0.1) * 3 = 0.80 damage (averaged)
The Champion gets 12.5% extra damage [(0.8-0.7)/0.8 * 100%] over the Regular Fighter.
Now with GWM and Half-Orc Trait:
E (damage) = (P - C) * DPH + C * DPC
For the Regular fighter: E = (0.6-0.05) * 1 + (0.05) * 4 = 0.75 damage (averaged)
For the Champion: E = (0.6 - 0.1) * 1 + (0.1) * 4 = 0.90 damage (averaged)
The Champion gets 16.7% extra damage [(0.9-0.75)/0.9 * 100%] over the Regular Fighter.
Now with GWM and Half-Orc and Advantage:
For the Regular fighter: E = (0.6-0.0975) * 1 + (0.0975) * 4 = 0.8205 damage (averaged)
For the Champion: E = (0.6 - 0.19) * 1 + (0.19) * 4 = 1.17 damage (averaged)
The Champion gets 29.9% extra damage [(1.17-0.8205)/1.17 * 100%] over the Regular Fighter.
And by level 6, the Half-Orc could have GWM and Piercer feats. So they roll even more damage on crits, which would allow the Champion to pull away even more.
Kerric, you missed my edit. I caught my own mistake. It’s actually only 9.67% with GWM. I’m with people, but so I’ll check your numbers later. For now you’re making conceptual errors.
You if you use 1 attack, 2 attacks, 10 attacks, as long as you do the same for both, they are irrelevant.
When you’re calculating the added damage per attack for GWM’s extra attack... if you’re still single attack, you can make 1 bonus action attack per 1 attack. You’re you make 4 attacks, you can gain a maximum of 1 attack for every FOUR attacks. So no, it’s not irrelevant.
You: “If you assume a damage bonus that is the same for both, they are irrelevant.”
Not if you’re calculating the percent increase of your base, normal damage, nor to figure the total damage per attack. It’s absurd to say otherwise.
You: If you are using the same average damage (ie: the same weapon) for both, the magnitude is irrelevant. Just set it to 1.
Again, not if you’re trying to figure out a percent increase of total damage.
That's all true at 15+, the issue is that the subclass is abysmal at 3rd level and doesn't start to take off until level 11+, when most gameplay happens at levels 5-10.
Let me help you out a little, if you don't mind.
This really isn't a good assumption since crits can't double fixed numeric bonuses. This overestimates the crit damage.
A simpler and more general equation is P * DPH + C * crit bonus, where "crit bonus" is the damage dice that get rerolled and any crit-specific bonuses like Brutal Critical.
Also as a rule of thumb you really wanna be using single-letter variables, makes writing out the algebra a lot easier. If you change DPH to d and crit bonus to b, the whole thing just becomes pd + cb.
There's a slight wrinkle here in assuming GWM and Piercer are the optimal choice just because you're going for a crit build. If you're taking these feats before level 8 you're definitely giving up ASIs that could've increased your hit rate and every hit's damage, resulting in a bigger increase to your average damage.
For example a level 5 Champion w/ GWM, 16 STR, a 60% chance to hit and a lance (6.5 + 3 damage plus another 6.5 on crits) will average 2.19 * (0.6*9.5 + 0.1*6.5) = 13.9065 damage (the 2.19 is 2 for two attacks + a 19% chance of scoring a crit and getting a third attack with your bonus action.) Of course I've ignored the -5/+10 aspect of GWM, but that'd actually result in a net loss in this situation unless you have advantage.
If the same Champion had taken +2 STR instead of GWM they'd be doing 2 * (0.65*10.5 + 0.1*6.5) = 14.95 damage instead. And obviously if GWM barely makes sense over the ASI for the Champion, it makes even less sense on a non-Champion build that's less likely to score a crit.
Piercer has the same problem unless you start with 17 STR so the +1 STR bumps you up to a +4 modifier.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Kerric, your formulas are nonsensical as is your starting point.
YOU: “______________________________
_________________ “
There is NO conceivable way to only average 1 damage per hit. And that profoundly affects the numbers. Not only does the total damage matter, how much of it that comes from dice verses how much that comes from non-dice matters, a lot.
You’ve artificially deflated damage per hit down to 1, and then considered ALL of it to be dice damage. AND you’re inappropriately tripling the base damage to represent a crit.
I know you want to make the math easier, but I prefer that it’s accurate.
Overall it's pretty easy to see that champion is worse off mechanics wise. I'm not sure why we countinue to beat a dead horse.
It's not a good design choice for a fighter who's only virtue is damage.
They should have just gone the Brute route with die per attack.
Problem with the Brute is that it has a lot of style overlap with the Barbarian. A class designed for crit fishing isn't inherently a bad idea, it just needs better numbers, particularly at low level.
Hard disagree with barbarian similarities.
The only overlap is extra damage which basically every fighter subclass gets.
They did not get:
1. Damage mitigation
2. Advantage on STR checks/saves
The funny thing is Rune Knight has much more overlap with barbarian. They get the giant form with extra damage and ADV on str checks/saves and hill rune gives BPS resistance.
The only real "overlap" brute has was "simple fighter who hits" which is already what champion is so no real design space is stepped on.
With the new PHB survey that just came out I am hopeful they relook at some of the PHB subclasses.
Champion fails on a lot of levels as it has a bland thematic angle, poor mechanics at its heart (3rd level), and odd design choices (Remarkable Athlete).
The improved critical is only good if you are making a really high number of attacks per day suggesting you have to have 6+ encounters a day with no short rest to oust the other fighter options. Also heavily incentivizes STR builds but gives no inherent way to offset the -5 from GWM so is just worse off by doing so than other builds.
Thematically its just "you are slightly better at hitting stuff" until 7th level...then Remarkable Athlete gives you half PB on stuff you aren't already PROF in....which is whelming.
Initiative is the best use of this ability but the best you ever get is +3 to that...which is not terrible but also not great either.
Overall its a pretty big whiff as a subclass.
The synergies with Crusher and Piercer/Slasher on a PAM Champion are pretty good. Forget GWM/DPR calculations, the extra crit effects applying to your targets is more important than just damage. Without GWM you hit more often (letting you apply movement reduction and shoving effects each round), and with a high chance of crits it really starts to shine when you impose advantage for your allies, or disadvantage for your enemy.
Also: there *needs* to be classes that are simple like Barbarian, Champion etc. This is also a learning curve for new or younger players that want to just roll a bunch of dice and not have five options every round. Stop trying to make everything so freaking complex.
Also any fighter can pick up crusher in conjunction with GWM and use a maul so its not like champ has the market tapped on that one. And a GWM battlemaster can already get ADV through trip attack so its mostly down to the 5ft movement each turn which is fine.
Not to mention with their other maneuver choices they get a large array of better options to help out.
You can have simple yet interesting. Samurai is a better effort on their part for a "simple" fighter that a lot of people find more interesting. I personally do not but I know its a subclass that people like because I see it a lot.
Its just poorly thought out in terms of what you want to deliver from it....a bunch of passive stuff is OK if it actually delivers on what it is suppose to do. The problem with Champion is it doesn't so you are left with a underperforming, simple subclass that relies on the DM to make more interesting with magic items or homebrew fixes.
Its honestly kind of a trap option for new players and I wouldn't suggest it for them. I would help them with a more interesting and better designed subclass.
The subclass isn't bad, but it is lopsided and bland. Most people want to see results ASAP, which many will not see the Champion provide, especially when compared to the other fighter subclasses that give options the players can choose to activate immediately.
Has anyone seen the look on a barbarian player's face when they roll a crit, grab a fistful of d12s and roll them? How about paladin or rogue players with their d8s and d6s, respectfully? A cleric with Divine Strikes swinging their mace while casting booming blade? 3 levels in Champion fighter lets them do that twice as often.
The multiclassing potential cannot be ignored for these arguments, and I feel in this regard the subclasses are much more balanced.
Oh yeah it's a great multi class for sure no argument there!
I'm more discussing as a straight up subclass.
The problem with Champion as a fighter archetype is that the fighter class itself is poorly equipped to utilize those juicy crits.
More, smaller attacks typically means only 1 or 2 dice get added onto each crit, and having such high amounts of attacks encourages increasing the damage modifier, which doesn't get doubled on a crit; it's why PAM+GWM and CbE+SS fighters are a thing, and neither of them really benefit from being on a Champion.
One situation that comes to mind that the Champion definitely beats the other two is the drawn-out HAM slugfest; the others have likely exhausted their resources over 10+ rounds while the Champion continues to whale on them, regenerating HP while crits continue to throw out extra dice.
However, this ideal scenario can almost never happen as level 18 games are very rare and D&D is a resource management game, encouraging teams to end fights as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Combat encounters are treated as DPR races, so BMs likely blow all their dice over 2-3 rounds to minimize healing afterwards. They then take a short rest and get everything back; rinse, repeat. In comparison, the Champion crits maybe once more than the BM, doing 1d8-10 or 2d6s more than than a baseline fighter vs BM's 4d8.