I assume that RAI was that spell slots for warlock should not be the same as spell slots from the sorcerer/other spell casting classes. This is implied by the section in multiclassing on pact magic showing both entities (see below). This is not out right stated so I can't say the separation is raw but it is justifiable. The bigger issue in my mind is allowing higher non pact slots to be refreshable by a short rest with a small warlock dip.
Pact Magic. If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.
Pact magic and Spellcasting slots are separate, and scale independently, by RAW.
A Sorcerer7/Warlock1 would be limited to regenerating (1) 1st level spell slot per short rest, so in order for the Coffeelock to regenerate their highest level (4th) sorcerer spell slot, they would need to use Flexible Casting over the course of 6 short rests, which is comparable to, and less efficient than, a long rest. (Flexible Casting doesn't restrict the source of spell slots.)
A 3 level Warlock dip is more impressive, but then the player has also delayed their spell progression by 2 full spell levels, which is rough.
I assume that RAI was that spell slots for warlock should not be the same as spell slots from the sorcerer/other spell casting classes. This is implied by the section in multiclassing on pact magic showing both entities (see below). This is not out right stated so I can't say the separation is raw but it is justifiable. The bigger issue in my mind is allowing higher non pact slots to be refreshable by a short rest with a small warlock dip.
Pact Magic. If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.
Pact magic and Spellcasting slots are separate, and scale independently, by RAW.
A Sorcerer7/Warlock1 would be limited to regenerating (1) 1st level spell slot per short rest, so in order for the Coffeelock to regenerate their highest level (4th) sorcerer spell slot, they would need to use Flexible Casting over the course of 6 short rests, which is comparable to, and less efficient than, a long rest. (Flexible Casting doesn't restrict the source of spell slots.)
A 3 level Warlock dip is more impressive, but then the player has also delayed their spell progression by 2 full spell levels, which is rough.
Yes the amount of spell slots is calculated by treating them separate but that is where the clear separation ends. The pact magic feature states:
Warlock: Pact Magic: Spell Slots
The Warlock table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your warlock spells of 1st through 5th level. The table also shows what the level of those slots is; all of your spell slots are the same level. To cast one of your warlock spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest. Bold Emphasis added by me.
As written if you only have the pact magic feature its not a problem. the Problem is when you add in the spellcasting feature From sorcerer. Does "all" referrer to the slots gained by warlock or the slots by both classes? unfortunately, The assumption a person makes leads to a huge difference. there is nothing Raw contradicting either take but there may be a RAI interpretation.
In my opinion, the section should say "You regain all expended [Pact magic] spell slots when you finish a short or long rest." Brackets to signify my change .
Similarly I think sorcerer should be,
Sorcerer: Font of magic: Flexible Casting
You can use your sorcery points to gain additional [Spellcasting] spell slots, or sacrifice [Spellcasting] spell slots to gain additional sorcery points. You learn other ways to use your sorcery points as you reach higher levels.
Unfortunately the only thing to support this idea is the calculation of the amount of spell slots (in the multiclassing section). So, I This interpretation is a reasonable assumption but not RAW.
I want to actually play one to confirm this theory (nearly did so today, but if fell through), but based on what I can see of the build, I think the coffeelock would play out a lot like the original warlock did in 3.5, where it had no limit whatsoever on the number of spells/invocations it could cast each day. The limiter for the 3.5 warlock and the coffeelock appears to be the same: action economy. No matter how many spell slots you have, they still have to fit through the bottleneck of the actions the 'lock can perform on their turn. Like the 3.5 warlock, the coffeelock appears to sacrifice (or at least delay) access to the higher tier of spells in exchange for a lot more lower-tier magic. This can be beneficial (i.e., two 1st level Cure Wounds spells have the same dice as one 2nd level Cure Wounds, but with double the modifiers), but I don't see it as game-breaking or OP because of the action cost (i.e., you spent an extra action just to heal your buddy an extra 3-5hp, woo-hoo). The coffeelock may get to cast burning hands twelve times, but it'll take them over a minute to do that while their single-classed party member is already casting fireball and doing close to the same amount of damage to the same area in six seconds.
Where things start to break down is, like the 3.5 warlock, when the action economy is no longer a meaningful factor (I still remember the face my DM made when I informed him I could effectively Take 20 on my Dispel Magic checks for his magically locked door). At least with the coffeelock there is a limit to their spell slots, even it takes a long time to get there.
As I say above, I still need to test my theory at the table to know how it plays out in practice.
It sounds like you may understand how Warlock Pact magic works.
Warlocks get (up to) 2 spell slots per short rest, which are cast at their highest level (up to 5th level). They then get a separate feature that grants access to a limited selection of higher level spells. They do not get to accumulate additional slots beyond their maximum.
If multiclassed with another caster class, such as the Sorcerer, they are indeed sacrificing higher level spells for more lower level spells, but they must still contend with the Short Rest regeneration requirement.
There is no such thing as "Sorcerer Slots". The character has a number of Spell Slots according to the calculation of multiclassing rules.
A Sorcerer 3 / Cleric 3 has the same number of slots as a Sorcerer 6, however, the S3C3 can only prepare spells as a 3rd level sorcerer and 3rd level cleric, respectively. Shared slot pool, which can be used for upcasting.
I already tell my players in session zero that if they dip into Hexblade, they won't get Hexblade Curse until they have 3 levels in warlock so this is another good one to add to the list. I would just treat Pact Magic and Spellcasting as separate.
The cleric is adding healing so that the coffeelock doesn't run out of hit die and die
Ah, you could save yourself some trouble by taking the Divine Soul Sorcerer subclass, the Celestial Warlock subclass, or using a feat to get access to Goodberry
I'd allow it. It's strong, but it's not the strongest build and something like an arti-or peacechron is stronger while being less controversial.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Stating the truth in a way which pleases you isn't necessary: If it's true, you don't have the right to be offended, though you still may be, and that's okay."
"Dyne, absorbing the lives of animals is immoral- WAIT NO, LET THE CHILDREN BE."
"Any class can be a bard if you're persuasive enough."
Our DM allows max of 2 short rests per day. I know my characters would not be keen on adventuring with a fellow who wants to sleep half the day so in a way that would a "no" from the other players not the DM.
That's actually hilarious though. 8 encounters (or even 6) with just 2 short rests renders any short rest-based class so much worse than it already was. It's not even enough to make a warlock playing normally cut even.
Also coffelocking is done during downtime mostly. This doesn't prevent coffelocking it just makes it take longer, it's fine.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Stating the truth in a way which pleases you isn't necessary: If it's true, you don't have the right to be offended, though you still may be, and that's okay."
"Dyne, absorbing the lives of animals is immoral- WAIT NO, LET THE CHILDREN BE."
"Any class can be a bard if you're persuasive enough."
Low encounter days have much bigger problems than mere coffelocking. And fights don't take that long if you play reasonably well. Either you're dead or the enemy is in the cleanup stage long before that. I highly doubt you have 10 turns of complicated combat with the turns being more than running from point A to point B.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Stating the truth in a way which pleases you isn't necessary: If it's true, you don't have the right to be offended, though you still may be, and that's okay."
"Dyne, absorbing the lives of animals is immoral- WAIT NO, LET THE CHILDREN BE."
"Any class can be a bard if you're persuasive enough."
"Wisdom is charisma with a twist."
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Pact magic and Spellcasting slots are separate, and scale independently, by RAW.
A Sorcerer7/Warlock1 would be limited to regenerating (1) 1st level spell slot per short rest, so in order for the Coffeelock to regenerate their highest level (4th) sorcerer spell slot, they would need to use Flexible Casting over the course of 6 short rests, which is comparable to, and less efficient than, a long rest. (Flexible Casting doesn't restrict the source of spell slots.)
A 3 level Warlock dip is more impressive, but then the player has also delayed their spell progression by 2 full spell levels, which is rough.
Yes the amount of spell slots is calculated by treating them separate but that is where the clear separation ends. The pact magic feature states:
Warlock: Pact Magic: Spell Slots
The Warlock table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your warlock spells of 1st through 5th level. The table also shows what the level of those slots is; all of your spell slots are the same level. To cast one of your warlock spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest. Bold Emphasis added by me.
As written if you only have the pact magic feature its not a problem. the Problem is when you add in the spellcasting feature From sorcerer. Does "all" referrer to the slots gained by warlock or the slots by both classes? unfortunately, The assumption a person makes leads to a huge difference. there is nothing Raw contradicting either take but there may be a RAI interpretation.
In my opinion, the section should say "You regain all expended [Pact magic] spell slots when you finish a short or long rest." Brackets to signify my change .
Similarly I think sorcerer should be,
Sorcerer: Font of magic: Flexible Casting
You can use your sorcery points to gain additional [Spellcasting] spell slots, or sacrifice [Spellcasting] spell slots to gain additional sorcery points. You learn other ways to use your sorcery points as you reach higher levels.
Unfortunately the only thing to support this idea is the calculation of the amount of spell slots (in the multiclassing section). So, I This interpretation is a reasonable assumption but not RAW.
I want to actually play one to confirm this theory (nearly did so today, but if fell through), but based on what I can see of the build, I think the coffeelock would play out a lot like the original warlock did in 3.5, where it had no limit whatsoever on the number of spells/invocations it could cast each day. The limiter for the 3.5 warlock and the coffeelock appears to be the same: action economy. No matter how many spell slots you have, they still have to fit through the bottleneck of the actions the 'lock can perform on their turn. Like the 3.5 warlock, the coffeelock appears to sacrifice (or at least delay) access to the higher tier of spells in exchange for a lot more lower-tier magic. This can be beneficial (i.e., two 1st level Cure Wounds spells have the same dice as one 2nd level Cure Wounds, but with double the modifiers), but I don't see it as game-breaking or OP because of the action cost (i.e., you spent an extra action just to heal your buddy an extra 3-5hp, woo-hoo). The coffeelock may get to cast burning hands twelve times, but it'll take them over a minute to do that while their single-classed party member is already casting fireball and doing close to the same amount of damage to the same area in six seconds.
Where things start to break down is, like the 3.5 warlock, when the action economy is no longer a meaningful factor (I still remember the face my DM made when I informed him I could effectively Take 20 on my Dispel Magic checks for his magically locked door). At least with the coffeelock there is a limit to their spell slots, even it takes a long time to get there.
As I say above, I still need to test my theory at the table to know how it plays out in practice.
Fair Winds and Following Seas
It sounds like you may understand how Warlock Pact magic works.
Warlocks get (up to) 2 spell slots per short rest, which are cast at their highest level (up to 5th level). They then get a separate feature that grants access to a limited selection of higher level spells. They do not get to accumulate additional slots beyond their maximum.
If multiclassed with another caster class, such as the Sorcerer, they are indeed sacrificing higher level spells for more lower level spells, but they must still contend with the Short Rest regeneration requirement.
Coffeelock and level 1 cleric multiclass using the warforged race means you never have to lose your spell slots.
Which completely breaks the game.
There is nothing that says when sorcerers convert sorcery points into spell slots have to make them sorcerer slots so you can make them cleric slots.
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
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After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"
There is no such thing as "Sorcerer Slots". The character has a number of Spell Slots according to the calculation of multiclassing rules.
A Sorcerer 3 / Cleric 3 has the same number of slots as a Sorcerer 6, however, the S3C3 can only prepare spells as a 3rd level sorcerer and 3rd level cleric, respectively. Shared slot pool, which can be used for upcasting.
Class: 2nd level warlock 2nd level sorcerer 1st level cleric
+ Race: Warforged
= Extra powerful coffeelock
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"
What are you claiming that the level of Cleric is adding?
The cleric is adding healing so that the coffeelock doesn't run out of hit die and die
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"
The only way I know of to stop the coffeelock from dying is 10 levels of post-Tasha's ranger, at which point you don't even need Aspect of the Moon.
I already tell my players in session zero that if they dip into Hexblade, they won't get Hexblade Curse until they have 3 levels in warlock so this is another good one to add to the list. I would just treat Pact Magic and Spellcasting as separate.
Ah, you could save yourself some trouble by taking the Divine Soul Sorcerer subclass, the Celestial Warlock subclass, or using a feat to get access to Goodberry
Good idea I forgot about magic initiate, instead of spending a level to get cleric spells you can go all in on warlock and sorcerer
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"
I just let my players have 2 short rests a day. At any time. They call when it happens. Basically anytime as long as they’re not already in combat.
I'd allow it. It's strong, but it's not the strongest build and something like an arti-or peacechron is stronger while being less controversial.
"Stating the truth in a way which pleases you isn't necessary: If it's true, you don't have the right to be offended, though you still may be, and that's okay."
"Dyne, absorbing the lives of animals is immoral- WAIT NO, LET THE CHILDREN BE."
"Any class can be a bard if you're persuasive enough."
"Wisdom is charisma with a twist."
That's actually hilarious though. 8 encounters (or even 6) with just 2 short rests renders any short rest-based class so much worse than it already was. It's not even enough to make a warlock playing normally cut even.
Also coffelocking is done during downtime mostly. This doesn't prevent coffelocking it just makes it take longer, it's fine.
"Stating the truth in a way which pleases you isn't necessary: If it's true, you don't have the right to be offended, though you still may be, and that's okay."
"Dyne, absorbing the lives of animals is immoral- WAIT NO, LET THE CHILDREN BE."
"Any class can be a bard if you're persuasive enough."
"Wisdom is charisma with a twist."
Low encounter days have much bigger problems than mere coffelocking. And fights don't take that long if you play reasonably well. Either you're dead or the enemy is in the cleanup stage long before that. I highly doubt you have 10 turns of complicated combat with the turns being more than running from point A to point B.
"Stating the truth in a way which pleases you isn't necessary: If it's true, you don't have the right to be offended, though you still may be, and that's okay."
"Dyne, absorbing the lives of animals is immoral- WAIT NO, LET THE CHILDREN BE."
"Any class can be a bard if you're persuasive enough."
"Wisdom is charisma with a twist."