Not sure if booming blade beats AB EB though. I guess for melee. And would you pick a single round for dissonant whispers once a day for perhaps an extra 3d6 (with a bit of a compromised DC owing to your 12 cha), or would you rather +3 damage on every cantrip attack?
You can use your own slots for dissonant whispers too and the once a day misty step that comes with it is HUGE at first level.
AB/EB (which requires a feat) will nominally do 1 more point of damage than booming blade, assuming the enemy does not take movement damage and 3.5 less if he does. If you are talking about the fathomless build, the misty step makes it so you can reliably land that movement damage on at least one hit without taking an AOO and considering used reactions etc it is safe to say you will probably do it more often, especially if you are willing to trigger an AOO.
Dissonant whispers is best used when you have several allies within reach of someone. When you do that it does a ton of damage on a failed save (and still some automatic damage if the save is made). If this is a solo campain, then no I would not get it and it is not very useful. But when your barbarian and your Rogue are both standing next to someone and you pull out your Maul and go stand next to him too, and then cast dissonant whispers it is a ton of damage. You get it once a day for free, but you can use your spell slot for it too and you can combine it with Hex or cause fear (the latter keeping the enemy from advancing on you at all). I don't know that it is as good as sleep at 1st level though.
There is nothing that prevents you from using booming blade with the polearm master feat, you just can't take a bonus action attack with the polearm if you cast booming blade. You still get the AOO benefit though. You would use booming blade on turns where you are using a bonus action for something else (specifically when you start form of dread or when you cast Hex) which will be rather often on the warlock builds.
Also, booming blade doesn't work with the polearm master feat (its a cast spell action). I do really like the temp 1d10+1hp you are getting from the transformation though, and I think you will come out on top from the fathomless by .5 DPR. They are both sustained damage too, which I really like. The only downside to going melee polearm here is that you give up your shield, and in melee its easy to lose concentration on hex if you get hit a bit.
None of those builds except the cleric have shield proficiency. The fathomless does more damage when the tentacle is active and probably more total even if you amortize that across the whole day, but the frightened condition associated with form of dread is a pretty substantial counterbalance to that. Frightened is extremely effective if you party plays right in terms of positioning, mobility and AOOs . If the rest of your party just wants to close into melee and stay in melee it is less effective.
Variant Human/Custom Origin fighter with polearm mastery, a staff, and dueling style has a raw damage output of 16 (1d6+5, 1d4+5) with an AC of 18 (chain, shield) 12 hit points, second wind (1d10+1), a potential reaction attack for 1d6+5, and is not spending any limited or conditional resources to do that damage.
Do any of these beat the 33 average of the bugbear monk’s first round assuming no misses?
And also assuming he beats them in initiative or is willing to take AOOs to capitalize on this.
Also I don't think it is 33. Unless I am missing something it is 1d4 (unarmed strike)+1d8(spear/staff)+4d6+6 assuming a 16 dexterity. That is 27, not 33.
Oops yes, 27. Still too much for a level 1
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None of those builds except the cleric have shield proficiency. The fathomless does more damage when the tentacle is active and probably more total even if you amortize that across the whole day, but the frightened condition associated with form of dread is a pretty substantial counterbalance to that. Frightened is extremely effective if you party plays right in terms of positioning, mobility and AOOs . If the rest of your party just wants to close into melee and stay in melee it is less effective.
Oh I agree, the frightened ability is great. Very action efficient too. Tentacle also does a -10ft move debuff, which for a range character is handy as well.
Do any of these beat the 33 average of the bugbear monk’s first round assuming no misses?
And also assuming he beats them in initiative or is willing to take AOOs to capitalize on this.
Also I don't think it is 33. Unless I am missing something it is 1d4 (unarmed strike)+1d8(spear/staff)+4d6+6 assuming a 16 dexterity. That is 27, not 33.
Oops yes, 27. Still too much for a level 1
I think if the question was "what's the most damage in a single round you can do at first level" it would change a lot of the builds here. But its not.
Do any of these beat the 33 average of the bugbear monk’s first round assuming no misses?
And also assuming he beats them in initiative or is willing to take AOOs to capitalize on this.
Also I don't think it is 33. Unless I am missing something it is 1d4 (unarmed strike)+1d8(spear/staff)+4d6+6 assuming a 16 dexterity. That is 27, not 33.
Oops yes, 27. Still too much for a level 1
I think if the question was "what's the most damage in a single round you can do at first level" it would change a lot of the builds here. But its not.
I mean, if you take out creatures that should be equal opponents on round 1, it’s a strong character
The same thing could be done with a fighter, ranger, or rogue, picking 2 shortswords. The fighter has the same damage using two-weapon fighting style, the ranger has less. The rogue has similar damage and gets more if only the first attack hits, but is less accurate with the second hit and needs either advantage or an ally to reach full potential. Actually, the fighter (two shortswords) might be slightly better than the monk because if the instakill fails, you have more hp.
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I mean, if you take out creatures that should be equal opponents on round 1, it’s a strong character
The same thing could be done with a fighter, ranger, or rogue, picking 2 shortswords. The fighter has the same damage using two-weapon fighting style, the ranger has less. The rogue has similar damage and gets more if only the first attack hits, but is less accurate with the second hit and needs either advantage or an ally to reach full potential. Actually, the fighter (two shortswords) might be slightly better than the monk because if the instakill fails, you have more hp.
Of course it matters, absolutely.
But most builds with two attacks and access to the hex spell your looking at around a constant 2d6 on targets, over the course of an hour. Which in a lot of dungeons can get you a lot of value. Like for some of these builds you are on ~20DPR pretty sustained.
Also - I think those other classes max out with 2d8+6 = 15dpr, with a situational 22 dpr on the first round of combat if bugbear, and I'm not sure how the first level monk get 4d6 - isn't it 2d6 for bugbear?
But would you rather have say 20DPR with some other features for far more sustained?
I mean, if you take out creatures that should be equal opponents on round 1, it’s a strong character
The same thing could be done with a fighter, ranger, or rogue, picking 2 shortswords. The fighter has the same damage using two-weapon fighting style, the ranger has less. The rogue has similar damage and gets more if only the first attack hits, but is less accurate with the second hit and needs either advantage or an ally to reach full potential. Actually, the fighter (two shortswords) might be slightly better than the monk because if the instakill fails, you have more hp.
Of course it matters, absolutely.
But most builds with two attacks and access to the hex spell your looking at around a constant 2d6 on targets, over the course of an hour. Which in a lot of dungeons can get you a lot of value. Like for some of these builds you are on ~20DPR pretty sustained.
Also - I think those other classes max out with 2d8+6 = 15dpr, with a situational 22 dpr on the first round of combat if bugbear, and I'm not sure how the first level monk get 4d6 - isn't it 2d6 for bugbear?
But would you rather have say 20DPR with some other features for far more sustained?
Monsters of the multiverse buffed them way too much. As in, made it possible to deal 27 damage in a round too much. But 20 sustainable DPR is pretty good.
Also, the 20 isn’t on the first round there because of the bonus action restriction, so between them it depends on wether the opponent is a glass cannon or a tank.
The human variant war cleric Previously posted can deal about 40 damage if both attacks hit. It can potentially do this several turns in a row during the same combat.
I checked your cleric build, and it is better than the instakill bugbear and the hex DPR builds against low AC, but worse against high AC because of how great weapon master works. One thing to consider is that clerics also have healing spells, while the other builds don’t.
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I checked your cleric build, and it is better than the instakill bugbear and the hex DPR builds against low AC, but worse against high AC because of how great weapon master works. One thing to consider is that clerics also have healing spells, while the other builds don’t.
Did you check out it’s ability to give itself and the party the benefits of the bless spell?
I checked your cleric build, and it is better than the instakill bugbear and the hex DPR builds against low AC, but worse against high AC because of how great weapon master works. One thing to consider is that clerics also have healing spells, while the other builds don’t.
Did you check out it’s ability to give itself and the party the benefits of the bless spell?
No. But change “heal to “support” and you can encompass that. Good build.
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Monsters of the multiverse buffed them way too much. As in, made it possible to deal 27 damage in a round too much. But 20 sustainable DPR is pretty good.
Also, the 20 isn’t on the first round there because of the bonus action restriction, so between them it depends on wether the opponent is a glass cannon or a tank.
Bugbear is 2d6 though, why are you doing an extra 4d6 on the monk at level 1?
Monsters of the multiverse buffed them way too much. As in, made it possible to deal 27 damage in a round too much. But 20 sustainable DPR is pretty good.
Also, the 20 isn’t on the first round there because of the bonus action restriction, so between them it depends on wether the opponent is a glass cannon or a tank.
Bugbear is 2d6 though, why are you doing an extra 4d6 on the monk at level 1?
This is a lot, but it is situational. You need to beat the opponent in initiative and be able to close with him in melee on the first round.
This sounds easy, but when you consider AOOs it becomes a lot more difficult. If there are 7 combatatants (3 good guys and 4 bad guys). You are number 3 you think great I beat 2 of them on initiative. But then #1 and #2 go and either engage you or get in your way or you don't have enough move to make it to the guys you beat .....
I think the reason they buffed it is the old ability was difficult to land consistently in play.
I think the reason they buffed it is the old ability was difficult to land consistently in play.
They should probably have made it only a single attack, though. The first level bugbear wizard casting Jim's magic missile for 36 damage is a tad dumb.
I think the reason they buffed it is the old ability was difficult to land consistently in play.
They should probably have made it only a single attack, though. The first level bugbear wizard casting Jim's magic missile for 36 damage is a tad dumb.
The other issue the buff fixed was scaling. It started strong then fell off. Now a level 20 wizard can deal 44d6 by casting scorching ray at 9th level. Not efficient, but the jim’s magic missile thing still holds, and wow. They should have done single attack that scales slightly as you level up.
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I think the reason they buffed it is the old ability was difficult to land consistently in play.
They should probably have made it only a single attack, though. The first level bugbear wizard casting Jim's magic missile for 36 damage is a tad dumb.
Jim’s is interesting. Rolling without advantage has a roughly 14% chance of spell failure with the 3 attacks being made with a 1st level slot. The spells chance of failure without advantage steadily rises when up casting without advantage.
Bugbear wizard without advantage deals an average of about 25 DPR at level 1 when accounting for accuracy. Roughly 14% chance to take 3 damage from the spell failing, from the likely 8 to 9 hitpoints a level 1 wizard has. Advantage drives the DPR up to just under 36 DPR while minimizing the chance to self damage. Perhaps the bugbear wizard was hiding when they decided to spring an ambush, though that would only give advantage on 1 of the attack rolls.
I do think it’s a comical thought to imagine a low level wizard to possibly knocking themselves out on a failed casting though.
Monsters of the multiverse buffed them way too much. As in, made it possible to deal 27 damage in a round too much. But 20 sustainable DPR is pretty good.
Also, the 20 isn’t on the first round there because of the bonus action restriction, so between them it depends on wether the opponent is a glass cannon or a tank.
Bugbear is 2d6 though, why are you doing an extra 4d6 on the monk at level 1?
This is a lot, but it is situational. You need to beat the opponent in initiative and be able to close with him in melee on the first round.
This sounds easy, but when you consider AOOs it becomes a lot more difficult. If there are 7 combatatants (3 good guys and 4 bad guys). You are number 3 you think great I beat 2 of them on initiative. But then #1 and #2 go and either engage you or get in your way or you don't have enough move to make it to the guys you beat .....
I think the reason they buffed it is the old ability was difficult to land consistently in play.
Ahh I see, you get the bonus on all attacks, not just the first.
Monsters of the multiverse buffed them way too much. As in, made it possible to deal 27 damage in a round too much. But 20 sustainable DPR is pretty good.
Also, the 20 isn’t on the first round there because of the bonus action restriction, so between them it depends on wether the opponent is a glass cannon or a tank.
Bugbear is 2d6 though, why are you doing an extra 4d6 on the monk at level 1?
This is a lot, but it is situational. You need to beat the opponent in initiative and be able to close with him in melee on the first round.
This sounds easy, but when you consider AOOs it becomes a lot more difficult. If there are 7 combatatants (3 good guys and 4 bad guys). You are number 3 you think great I beat 2 of them on initiative. But then #1 and #2 go and either engage you or get in your way or you don't have enough move to make it to the guys you beat .....
I think the reason they buffed it is the old ability was difficult to land consistently in play.
Wait, can the bugbear do surprise attack with a reaction? There is not much at level 1 that can do this, but superior technique for commander’s strike would work. If you and commander’s strike user both win, you hit twice. This also would make slightly the attack easier to land at least once, because it now works if they win on initiative if you opponent happens to be within punching distance. Of course this is situational.
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You can use your own slots for dissonant whispers too and the once a day misty step that comes with it is HUGE at first level.
AB/EB (which requires a feat) will nominally do 1 more point of damage than booming blade, assuming the enemy does not take movement damage and 3.5 less if he does. If you are talking about the fathomless build, the misty step makes it so you can reliably land that movement damage on at least one hit without taking an AOO and considering used reactions etc it is safe to say you will probably do it more often, especially if you are willing to trigger an AOO.
Dissonant whispers is best used when you have several allies within reach of someone. When you do that it does a ton of damage on a failed save (and still some automatic damage if the save is made). If this is a solo campain, then no I would not get it and it is not very useful. But when your barbarian and your Rogue are both standing next to someone and you pull out your Maul and go stand next to him too, and then cast dissonant whispers it is a ton of damage. You get it once a day for free, but you can use your spell slot for it too and you can combine it with Hex or cause fear (the latter keeping the enemy from advancing on you at all). I don't know that it is as good as sleep at 1st level though.
There is nothing that prevents you from using booming blade with the polearm master feat, you just can't take a bonus action attack with the polearm if you cast booming blade. You still get the AOO benefit though. You would use booming blade on turns where you are using a bonus action for something else (specifically when you start form of dread or when you cast Hex) which will be rather often on the warlock builds.
None of those builds except the cleric have shield proficiency. The fathomless does more damage when the tentacle is active and probably more total even if you amortize that across the whole day, but the frightened condition associated with form of dread is a pretty substantial counterbalance to that. Frightened is extremely effective if you party plays right in terms of positioning, mobility and AOOs . If the rest of your party just wants to close into melee and stay in melee it is less effective.
Variant Human/Custom Origin fighter with polearm mastery, a staff, and dueling style has a raw damage output of 16 (1d6+5, 1d4+5) with an AC of 18 (chain, shield) 12 hit points, second wind (1d10+1), a potential reaction attack for 1d6+5, and is not spending any limited or conditional resources to do that damage.
Oops yes, 27. Still too much for a level 1
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Oh I agree, the frightened ability is great. Very action efficient too. Tentacle also does a -10ft move debuff, which for a range character is handy as well.
I think if the question was "what's the most damage in a single round you can do at first level" it would change a lot of the builds here. But its not.
I mean, if you take out creatures that should be equal opponents on round 1, it’s a strong character
The same thing could be done with a fighter, ranger, or rogue, picking 2 shortswords. The fighter has the same damage using two-weapon fighting style, the ranger has less. The rogue has similar damage and gets more if only the first attack hits, but is less accurate with the second hit and needs either advantage or an ally to reach full potential. Actually, the fighter (two shortswords) might be slightly better than the monk because if the instakill fails, you have more hp.
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Of course it matters, absolutely.
But most builds with two attacks and access to the hex spell your looking at around a constant 2d6 on targets, over the course of an hour. Which in a lot of dungeons can get you a lot of value. Like for some of these builds you are on ~20DPR pretty sustained.
Also - I think those other classes max out with 2d8+6 = 15dpr, with a situational 22 dpr on the first round of combat if bugbear, and I'm not sure how the first level monk get 4d6 - isn't it 2d6 for bugbear?
But would you rather have say 20DPR with some other features for far more sustained?
Monsters of the multiverse buffed them way too much. As in, made it possible to deal 27 damage in a round too much. But 20 sustainable DPR is pretty good.
Also, the 20 isn’t on the first round there because of the bonus action restriction, so between them it depends on wether the opponent is a glass cannon or a tank.
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You can see the new effect in a thread asking if bugbear is now a top choice for monks is the monk class forums
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The human variant war cleric Previously posted can deal about 40 damage if both attacks hit. It can potentially do this several turns in a row during the same combat.
I checked your cleric build, and it is better than the instakill bugbear and the hex DPR builds against low AC, but worse against high AC because of how great weapon master works. One thing to consider is that clerics also have healing spells, while the other builds don’t.
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Did you check out it’s ability to give itself and the party the benefits of the bless spell?
No. But change “heal to “support” and you can encompass that. Good build.
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Bugbear is 2d6 though, why are you doing an extra 4d6 on the monk at level 1?
1st level Bugbear Monk who won initiative:
Attack Action: 1d8 staff/spear+3 dex+2d6 bugbear --> 4.5+3+7=14.5
Bonus action matrtial arts: 1d4 martial arts+3dex+2d6 bugbear --> 2.5+3+7=12.5
12.5+14.5=27 damage
This is a lot, but it is situational. You need to beat the opponent in initiative and be able to close with him in melee on the first round.
This sounds easy, but when you consider AOOs it becomes a lot more difficult. If there are 7 combatatants (3 good guys and 4 bad guys). You are number 3 you think great I beat 2 of them on initiative. But then #1 and #2 go and either engage you or get in your way or you don't have enough move to make it to the guys you beat .....
I think the reason they buffed it is the old ability was difficult to land consistently in play.
They should probably have made it only a single attack, though. The first level bugbear wizard casting Jim's magic missile for 36 damage is a tad dumb.
The other issue the buff fixed was scaling. It started strong then fell off. Now a level 20 wizard can deal 44d6 by casting scorching ray at 9th level. Not efficient, but the jim’s magic missile thing still holds, and wow. They should have done single attack that scales slightly as you level up.
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Jim’s is interesting. Rolling without advantage has a roughly 14% chance of spell failure with the 3 attacks being made with a 1st level slot. The spells chance of failure without advantage steadily rises when up casting without advantage.
Bugbear wizard without advantage deals an average of about 25 DPR at level 1 when accounting for accuracy. Roughly 14% chance to take 3 damage from the spell failing, from the likely 8 to 9 hitpoints a level 1 wizard has. Advantage drives the DPR up to just under 36 DPR while minimizing the chance to self damage. Perhaps the bugbear wizard was hiding when they decided to spring an ambush, though that would only give advantage on 1 of the attack rolls.
I do think it’s a comical thought to imagine a low level wizard to possibly knocking themselves out on a failed casting though.
Ahh I see, you get the bonus on all attacks, not just the first.
Wait, can the bugbear do surprise attack with a reaction? There is not much at level 1 that can do this, but superior technique for commander’s strike would work. If you and commander’s strike user both win, you hit twice. This also would make slightly the attack easier to land at least once, because it now works if they win on initiative if you opponent happens to be within punching distance. Of course this is situational.
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