I don't get why that means half-elves and half-orcs need to be utterly destroyed as racial entries and reduced to not even a blurb in a side-bar that isn't getting fleshed out.
Oh! I can clear that up for you.
It's because the new Players Handbook isn't going to have the same dual function that the current one has. It's not meant to be a de facto setting guide for Faerun. Or any other particular setting! Just like Monsters of the Multiverse, it's supposed to be setting-neutral, insofar as it can be.
Edit: If there ends up being a Faerun setting guide, expect to see half elf lore fleshed out, but their mechanics unchanged. Exactly how it is in Eberron.
On the contrary. In that particular passage, the poster specifically noted that he was discussing background. I was specifically discussing background. Pretty simple.
She. You are cherry-picking your evidence here. In her very second sentence, she states her argument, which you either ignored or misunderstood.
"The argument is that the Half-Elf Stat block has absolutely nothing to do with the Human stat block or the Elf stat block."
She continues.
"It is its own third separate thing, with no relation or connection to either of its so-called "parent" species."
You specifically and deliberately omitted this portion of her post to move the goal posts and then make the case that this mechanical distinction from either parent race is somehow lending to the desired narrative of being ostracized from both societies. This is silly, given there is no evidence for this beyond your imagination. Can you cite a single source that specifies that it is their mechanical abilities that make them unfit for a role in either elven or human society in any of 5e? Or any of the expanded lore? It has been a long time since I read any D&D family novels but I recall nothing of the sort.
I disagree. The skills and ability improvements make sense when we think about how such an individual would be driven just to survive.
Elaborate. Elaborate with evidence that half-elves are universally driven to such extremes to survive, that they must spontaneously develop some shared, distinct traits that are conveniently superior to their parentage just to function in society. I cannot wait to see what you have.
I think it's an overstatement to say that they are superior. Good? Yes, absolutely. But if there was no other choice worth taking, this would be observable in the popularity rankings.
+2/+1/+1, darkvision, advantage on saving throws against being charmed, magic cannot put you to sleep, proficiency in two skills of your choice or replace it with whatever elf perk you want. I mean, you must not really know what is on either parent race if you cannot see how this is superior. It takes the best of both to create some kind of super soldier. Elves just get +2, darkvision, proficiency in one skill, trance, with some small variations among the subraces that the half-elf has the option to take too. Humans get +1 to each score. This is why half-elves are so popular and why you are fighting so hard. It is not I who thinks there are no other choices. It is you. In fact, the stats were the very heart of your position from early on:
"Otherwise, you can have my +2 CHA half-elf Paladin when you pry her from my cold dead hands. That's my hill, and I'm happy to die on it. /rant"
Need I go on? It is the entire source of your anger as stated by YOU.
Sure you can. All day, every day. Just look at humans as a player choice. Mechanically, you literally can't you wrong. You just can't. Top choice in every edition.
Circular reasoning and frankly, just not a very smart argument. My point that you were responding to stated that you cannot do something simply because it was done so in the past, because that is a logical fallacy. Your rebuttal? "Sure you can because that is what has always been done". Your argument is that we should continue to do illogical, harmful things because we always have, then used an example that is mechanically inferior to the one example you are trying to shield. Breathtaking argument, really. Further, just because humans are rarely a bad choice, does not make them superior to half-elves. There are really specific situations, mechanically, where humans are the better option. If your stats are all odds for example, this would be a situation where it would be especially beneficial to get a +1 in every ability score. But even this is not universal because an even or odd load out would be immaterial if you are playing a class that is SAD. Then there is the issue of needing to create more mixed races with inexplicable superior traits than their parents just to be consistent with the message sent in their game design. The better solution that causes the least harm is to remove the problem rather than try to paint over it and 1DD is the perfect opportunity for WotC to unload a lot of garbage in their game. They are taking advantage of that opportunity whether you like it or not.
Look, nobody here wants anyone to feel hurt. Nobody does.
Perhaps. I have seen plenty of posts here that lead me to believe empathy is in critically short supply on the side of those who wish to keep half-elves as they are now. Mostly due to the dismissive attitudes and invalidation of one poster who had specifically stated how they have been impacted in this very thread... multiple times. And if you read every post in the thread, you undoubtedly saw them.
What befuddles me is that I keep hearing the messengers saying that someone could be hurt, or is being hurt, but nobody is being specific about who is being hurt.
Incorrect. One poster here told you and others that they had been impacted. Your side then drove them from this thread with calloused responses. I encourage reflection.
Are individuals truly having existential events over a statblock? Is there a single example showing how a half-elf or half-orc's unique statblock caused someone to feel excluded, shamed, or shunned, thus ruining their night of fun, leaving them with lasting feelings of resentment, and possibly chasing them away from DnD forever?
Does one need to have a crisis to experience harm? Is harm only material to you if it drives a person to something as extreme as self-injury or to have some kind of breakdown? Why is the threshold so high when the alternative is to just change how half-elves are presented mechanically, which has a comparatively low impact? It seems that we have two different measures and the bulk of the weight is clearly given to the one that gives you more fun. Again, I encourage reflection.
You'll have to forgive me for saying so, but I'm struggling to wrap my mind around the hypersensitivity required to react to a game of imagination in such a manner- and not just the game, but only a very specific, tiny part of the game at that. This is also assuming you're among friends to begin with. It just seems like an extraordinarily unlikely outcome.
I find it unsavory that something you do not understand, by your own admission, is labeled as hypersensitivity. Reflection is the word of the hour here.
But I could be wrong. If so, show me. Please. Perhaps it is me who needs to reconsider their position.
Yurei1453 provided you with an example, saving me from legwork.
I would prefer that HEs and HOs remain their own thing. However, as stated from the beginning, I would support a grab bag approach.
If you are not anchored to your current +2 to CHA, then there is no point to any of your posts. The hill you swore to die on has been abandoned.
I may be wrong here but I don't think he's anchored to the +2 CHA so much because it's a +2 CHA so much as it's the HALF-ELVES +2 CHA. I.E. He wants to keep it as he considered it a defining trait of the race. Humans are vesitile, dwarves are hardy, elves are dexterous, and half-elves are charismatic as it were.
Like, half-elves don't have the same bonuses across RP systems and editions (maybe close, but not the same). But that doesn't mean that the bonuses, whatever bonuses they are, are somehow not part of their identity as a race at least within that system. If I played a half-elf in some hypothetical other game, I would want my racial abilities/bonuses to distinctly be the half-elves regardless of what they were and I would be pretty... disheartened... if they went 'pick one from the human and one from the elf' or something. I alluded to this before. If you can swap around your racial traits freely and easily, are you an X, or a Y that just so happens to LOOK like an X? I do feel that a races traits, whatever said traits are, are indeed part of their identity. We can update and change them as we buff/nerf/fix/whatever, but when you remove them and go 'just pick from another race', unless your race is some sort of weird shifter/frankenstein's monster type thingy, it robs them of at least part of their identity IMO.
Let me be clear here. I'm not saying you can't change a racial ability/stat/etc. I'm saying that making it fluid, unless that was the entire point of the race, robs it of part of its identity. If it gets discovered that you were, intentionally or not, being discriminatory and want to fix it, that's fine. No problem. I just don't feel it should be REMOVED.
Opening up mixed races seems to be a good thing to me.
But I think a sidebar is insufficient. My belief is that they should devote as much space to it as would ordinarily be reserved to the considerations of multiclassing or background selection.
Backgrounds, for instance, give us a recipe on how to make backgrounds and then a sample list.
I believe that being able to create a character of mixed race by having a middle ground of the fluff and cosmetics and then picking from the mechanical features on one parent is a good start. However, I think it's too extreme/not nuanced enough to portray the classical half-elf and half-orc... which have been with us since D&D 2E and have had more than 3 decades to build an identity and a following. I think those two have been with us long enough to deserve more than a footnote in 1DnD.
If the 2024 PHB outlined mixed race rules and then provide samples of mixed-and-matched of the classical half-orc and half-elf... then a new player wouldn't have to access 5E material to access the classic takes on the half-elf and half-orc, but they'd totally still be able to pick the more-human half-elf and/or a more-elf half-elf too that the sidebar described.
Essentially, everyone wins. Having a place for samples would also introduces an opening category to provide creation rules for more obscure mixes, such as the Athasian half-giants (since giants are not a possible PHB race)
I don't see how it is stupid. Now you can have a half orc that isn't just half human but something else, same with elf. It also allows an easy way to make a half-anything.
I suppose it could be better like "take 1 trait from one race and one from another" but that can make a mess of balancing and they'd need to restructure racial traits to categorize them like Type A and Type B, so people can just make a half-something and take the best from both.
Opening up mixed races seems to be a good thing to me.
But I think a sidebar is insufficient. My belief is that they should devote as much space to it as would ordinarily be reserved to the considerations of multiclassing or background selection.
Backgrounds, for instance, give us a recipe on how to make backgrounds and then a sample list.
I believe that being able to create a character of mixed race by having a middle ground of the fluff and cosmetics and then picking from the mechanical features on one parent is a good start. However, I think it's too extreme/not nuanced enough to portray the classical half-elf and half-orc... which have been with us since D&D 2E and have had more than 3 decades to build an identity and a following. I think those two have been with us long enough to deserve more than a footnote in 1DnD.
If the 2024 PHB outlined mixed race rules and then provide samples of mixed-and-matched of the classical half-orc and half-elf... then a new player wouldn't have to access 5E material to access the classic takes on the half-elf and half-orc, but they'd totally still be able to pick the more-human half-elf and/or a more-elf half-elf too that the sidebar described.
Essentially, everyone wins. Having a place for samples would also introduces an opening category to provide creation rules for more obscure mixes, such as the Athasian half-giants (since giants are not a possible PHB race)
Everybody who thinks it's "Simplicity itself" to make an official canon way to mingle species? Write those rules up. Write up the entry you want to see in the book.
Then ask ten million people to use those rules exactly as written, without any flex or budge, and you're not allowed to explain any confusion or bad blood your writing incites, even accidentally. You have to hand it to ten million people, and that's the very last thing you can do with it. And remember - people are going to use those rules for any species ever invented for D&D in the last thirty years, and any new ones invented in the next ten.
Provide a ruleset you think robust enough to withstand that scenario, if you would.
Everybody who thinks it's "Simplicity itself" to make an official canon way to mingle species? Write those rules up. Write up the entry you want to see in the book.
Then ask ten million people to use those rules exactly as written, without any flex or budge, and you're not allowed to explain any confusion or bad blood your writing incites, even accidentally. You have to hand it to ten million people, and that's the very last thing you can do with it. And remember - people are going to use those rules for any species ever invented for D&D in the last thirty years, and any new ones invented in the next ten.
Provide a ruleset you think robust enough to withstand that scenario, if you would.
And, if you manage that, be prepared for everyone who cares deeply about optimization to be playing the "standard mix", which is probably something like aarakora/orc, or autognome/plasmoid.
I am doing this 100% off the top of my head. I apologize in advance for my own ignorance in both the experiences of people with multi-racial backgrounds and what 1DD is trying for. I am simply trying to do my best and draw from my own experiences. I am not saying this is how I think this should be; merely my best attempt given my own, limited, capabilities.
'Throughout the many different worlds of Dungeons and Dragons there are many races that exist. Though loves arrow tends to seek those of the same species, it can often strike those of entirely different species and children may result from this critical success of romance. Some pairings are far more common than others, such as a human and an elf producing a half-elven child, while others are rarer to find for multiple reasons, such as a centaur and minotaur. This section is dedicated to these multi-racial beings, how to create one, and examples of common pairings including several D&D mainstays such as the half-elf and half-orc. It should be noted that this will only cover entries where both parent races are playable races and not situations where, while a character may have parents of different races, one of those races is non-playable. Be sure to consult with your GM beforehand to ensure the desired pairing is acceptable and fitting to the world.
When it comes to creating a child of such a wonderous pairing first select two humanoid races you wish to have for your parent races. While a GM may rule that a certain pairing (such as a human and a tortle) is non-viable, most humanoid race crossings should be acceptable. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. It is unlikely you will fully resemble one of your two parent races and your physical features will likely appear to be somewhere between the two. For example: Half-elves, unlike their human parents, typically have pointed ears that possess a degree of motion and sentistivity, but are also much smaller than their elven parents and being nowhere near as mobile or sentitive. Please note that this is done mostly for roleplay purposes and these may not have any actual statistical bonuses associated with them.
When it comes to selecting your racial traits, it is best to consult with your GM to see what will be acceptable. Do not be surprised if they decree one particular combination to be too strong and request you take a weaker set of abilities. Selecting all the racial traits from one of your two parent species will likely prevent any issues though it may not be always fitting to the character.
When it comes to determining your characters lifespan, your average will likely be around half-way between that of both your parent races. For races that are exceptionally long-lived or immortal (be it via magic or some other means), then it may be best to have your character age like normal until they reach young adult-hood at which point they age at half the rate of their shorter-lived parent.
If any of your players happen to have real-life experience with a mixed heritage, it is best to defer to them or at least consult them about proper representation within the game. The following is simply some general world-building advise and concepts that may or may not hold true for your campaign, but still serves as a decent starting point for those wishing to create such characters or include them in their world.
Half-Elves (human): Coming from a human and elven parent, half-elves are probably the most widely-accepted and liked of those with parents of different species. Within human society they occupy a unique niche in that, while those with discriminatory viewpoints will gladly single them out for harassment and children will pick on them for being different, the vast majority of common folk will see them as exotic, interesting, and desirable. Some human nobles take elven spouses and the resulting children further re-inforce this viewpoint. A half-elf may be nothing more than a turnip farmer but an entriprising merchant may dress them up in fine clothes and put them out front in their stores to make it seem more prestegious and attract more clients. Many half-elves have ease navigating various social circles due this perception regardless of any actual capabilities. Some half-elves revel in this attention and gladly utilize this perceived desirability for status and attention while others become irritated or even disgusted by it as it means that their accomplishments are often given unwarrented praise.
Among elven societies half-elves are often treated with a distant hand. Many will find that, while they may be treated as 'special' and told they are 'loved' they are often shut out almost entirely from elven society. Cut out from inheritences, finding invisible barriers, and given lesser tasks frequently. If an elven ruler had a half-elf child, said child might find that, despite being 'beloved' by the populace and having no siblings putting them in line for the throne, it will be some full-elven distant relative who ends up being crowned. There are more accepting groups of elves, especially those who interact with the outside world reguarly, and said elves will see half-elves as being little different from any other elf or human, whichever the half-elf identifies with more.
Half-elves have proven to be successful and have grown in number enough to form their own distinct minority group in human lands as well. Half-elves tend to age at a rate similar to humans until around age 15 at which point they slow-down to half the rate of humans.
Suggested traits: (Enter here)
Half-orc (human): Tough and prone to violance, the common perception of half-orcs is not a positive one. Many will automatically assume the absolute worst about both a half-orc and their parents regardless of any actual reality. The truth is that half-orcs are no more prone to aggression than anyone else though many were raised in a society where that was the only choice. Half-orcs tend to be very hard workers and meritocratic with many becoming extremely skilled and capable in their chosen field due to having to work very hard to overcome negative stereotypes. A half-orc chef, for example, will often pour in 110% into their cooking and create wonderful meals, taking pride in how delicious and filling their food is. A half-orc scholar might spend hours upon hours doing research to the point of sacrificing sleep, but be proud of the status they've earned within the scholarly community and be furious whenever their accomplishments are belittled or denied.
Among orcish cultures half-orcs are often seen as 'weak' and treated as incapable. However, those who manage an accomplishment get treated with respect and praise. Half-orcs seeking the approval of their orcish half will typically engage in daring feats to prove their power, might, and capabilities. Once proven they will be fully accepted by the society and seen as having 'proven themselves'. Though there may be lingering issues, they are usually handled with a reminder of the half-orcs accomplishments.
Those who successfully befriend half-orcs tend to consider them close and loyal friends and, frequently, find them to end up being among their closest friends for the rest of their lives. Half-orcs tend to age at the same rate at humans, though they remain physically fit and suffer the negative effects of aging less than their human halves.
Suggested Traits: (Enter here)
Half-Dwarves (human): Half-dwarves are a rarity. Most dwarves simply do not come into frequent contact with humans in the first place to even form relationships. Those who do tend to be travelers and merchants, frequently outcasts from normal tribal society to begin with. Most humans struggle to identify half-dwarves and it is very difficult to know how many half-dwarves exist among human societies as a result. While typically being stout, hardy, a bit short, and very gifted in the beard department, there is nothing overridingly distinct about them to provide for easy identification. In the rare situations where the heritage is known, most humans simply do not know how to react. Some will assume they are capable smiths, stone-masons, or fighters while others will hold negative associations, assume they are drunkards, or many other things.
Among half-dwarven societies few humans exist as most are simply unwilling to spend large amounts of time cooped up inside dwarven cities with little to no access to the outside. As a result human spouses are extremely rare to begin with, with most dwarves having never knowingly met one in their lives. A half-dwarf, by extension, is even rarer. Confusion is the closest thing to a universal reaction with the exact specifics depending entirely on the particular dwarven society.
Suggested traits: (Enter here)
Half-Dwarf/Half Furblog: The eternal lords of body hair. All bow before the sheer volume and thickness of their beards, sideburns, chest hair, and hair in general. None can dare to hope to compare and all bow down in worship to the sheer luxuriousness of their body hair.
I'm happy for you, or sorry that happened. I ain't reading all that. ;P
If this wasn't even intended to meet the brief, I am left wondering why you made it at all. Sorry, that sounds really dismissive and hurtful. I'm simply confused.
Also, it's limited to only humanoids, but we have oozes, constructs, fey, and monstrosities now too. I sort of understand if they're not allowed to mingle with humanoids, but surely they can with one another? If not construct and fey, at least fey and fey?
I'm happy for you, or sorry that happened. I ain't reading all that. ;P
If this wasn't even intended to meet the brief, I am left wondering why you made it at all. Sorry, that sounds really dismissive and hurtful. I'm simply confused.
Also, it's limited to only humanoids, but we have oozes, constructs, fey, and monstrosities now too. I sort of understand if they're not allowed to mingle with humanoids, but surely they can with one another? If not construct and fey, at least fey and fey?
Well, mostly because, after so much complaining about how things SHOULD have been done but making no effort to actually DO anything, it feels like the whole thing has devolved down to 'Wizards should do X! What? Me actually DO anything? Heck naw! Instead of actually trying to fix what I see as a problem by offering a solution I'll just spend several weeks in a 12- page threat complaining about it!'
So, ya know, went out and actually tried to do something. I doubt Wizards will care, but at the same time, it's putting my money where my mouth is. I said I was fine with it getting expanded, so I went and did it. I won't pretend it's perfect by any means, but I at least DID something to try and fix what I saw as a problem!
Edit: I want to be absolutely clear that I don't see what I did as some absolute truth, gospal truth, or even necessarily 'right'. Just an attempt to improve on what was offered and flesh it out to be a bit more than a side-bar and even offer some general ideas and building blocks for character concepts. I totally understand it needing fixing or if I did something 'wrong'. It's not my intention to start a fight with this, just to at least try to put a brick towards a solution instead.
I would like to explain my feelings around the "Children of Different Humanoid Kinds" sidebar. When I said was uncomfortable with Half Elves and Half Orcs it was never a huge thing or at the forefront of my mind but when it comes to discomfort with racial stuff that's par for the course. For me I experience racial discrimination as something constant, low level, and pervasive. It's usually never outright or even explicit, but rather just assumptions or offhand remarks that itch like a hair shirt. I certainly don't have it as bad as some people of color who experience legitimately deadly encounters with the police force who is supposed to protect them, so it's not like it's life threatening, except in the long slow death of the soul kind of way.
The insidious part of this kind of subtle discomfort is that is becomes normal. You internalize it and cease to notice it after awhile. You come to expect it. When someone is low key and snidely racist or even unconsciously racist without realizing it, you just kind of let it slide because it's too much work and disruption to your day to call it out, only to get blamed for being "too sensitive" or "rocking the boat."
But you know what is noticeable? Those rare occasions when something or someone improves of their own accord and not after a bitter and vicious fight to preserve a racist status quo. It's like finally taking a big breath of fresh air after years of having to breathe shallowly because you live next to a garbage dump. This is how I feel about the 1DD guidelines for multiracial characters. I absolutely wasn't expecting WOTC to come out with a treatment of multiracial characters that acknowledges and honors their heritage while also not setting them aside as mechanically different oddities separate from other people. I mean, can they do that? Just like, make changes that treat people better without being asked?
I was totally shocked. And after taking that big gulp of fresh air, I knew right away I didn't want to go back to breathing garbage air, even if I hadn't noticed before that I was breathing garbage air because I had gotten so used to it. So it's not like the treatment of multiracial people was an issue that was even on the radar for me, it just kind of faded into the background of low level crud that's just always there. But when I saw how easily it could be changed, I was amazed.
I'm not mad about Half Elves and Half Orcs the way they are in 5E. I don't condemn anyone for liking them they way they are and I never have, you can look back over the discussion in this thread and check me on that if you'd like. I do think that the way the playtest handles them is much much better, though and I like it. I'm not saying everyone has to like it, I'm just saying I like it myself. For what it's worth, I think the flexibility that you get with the combination of Special Traits, Ability Score Bonus, Skill Proficiencies, Language, Feat, and even equipment are enough to mechanically represent a person of mixed heritage in a significant way. I understand that people may disagree with that.
So, ya know, went out and actually tried to do something. I doubt Wizards will care, but at the same time, it's putting my money where my mouth is. I said I was fine with it getting expanded, so I went and did it. I won't pretend it's perfect by any means, but I at least DID something to try and fix what I saw as a problem!
Also means you start to have an understanding of the scope of, at least, the mechanical problem. Maybe even the narrative problem, too.
Still at work and limited to my goddamn phone, but I'll say this, Snow:
It's not a bad start. But it's also multiple pages of PHB text, and over half of it is devoted to spelling out the Faerunian lore for half-elves and half-orcs. That information shouldn't be in the PHB, and frankly I'm left wondering if it wouldn't be best to move both species stat blocks to a Faerunian sourcebook if they must be retained. It seems like Faerun is the only realm where these things require their own distinct stat block, every other 'Official' world I know would be happy to use the Origins blurb.
I'll also note that you gave no guidance at all on what "selecting your racial traits" means or how to do it. Feels like that was forgotten in the pressure to get something out, but it's also the core of the argument sooo....
I don't care for tearing down the work of someone trying to build up an idea, but in this case I don't think this attempt is adequate. It leans far too heavily towards more-or-less shoehorning Faerunian half-folks in through the side door and in the doing it reads to me like other mixed-ancestry folks are undesirable afterthoughts. There's no concession given to worlds where Faerunian species and cultures don't exist, and I'm done with that being the default norm in the PHB if I can possibly help it.
Still at work and limited to my goddamn phone, but I'll say this, Snow:
It's not a bad start. But it's also multiple pages of PHB text, and over half of it is devoted to spelling out the Faerunian lore for half-elves and half-orcs. That information shouldn't be in the PHB, and frankly I'm left wondering if it wouldn't be best to move both species stat blocks to a Faerunian sourcebook if they must be retained. It seems like Faerun is the only realm where these things require their own distinct stat block, every other 'Official' world I know would be happy to use the Origins blurb.
I'll also note that you gave no guidance at all on what "selecting your racial traits" means or how to do it. Feels like that was forgotten in the pressure to get something out, but it's also the core of the argument sooo....
I don't care for tearing down the work of someone trying to build up an idea, but in this case I don't think this attempt is adequate. It leans far too heavily towards more-or-less shoehorning Faerunian half-folks in through the side door and in the doing it reads to me like other mixed-ancestry folks are undesirable afterthoughts. There's no concession given to worlds where Faerunian species and cultures don't exist, and I'm done with that being the default norm in the PHB if I can possibly help it.
I've recently come to the conclusion that a Faerun source book (something much thicker than the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide) probably should have been a thing they sold for 5e a long time ago. That way, fans of the setting can run their own homebrew campaigns in the world, which leaves more room for them to diversify what kind of material they put out instead of almost every module being in Faerun.
You can do it better than the current play test. That is all some of are saying. This is a playtest and that is the purpose of it. To see how it works.
Taldorei Reborn does it better.
You can also take some from Pathfinder. There are feats that have a racial perquisite in 5E. You could alter some of them to remove a ASI and say that if you select a child of two different humanoid types. Then you select a feat from each one and have one extra of either. With the prerequisite of being of that race. Doesn't have to take a lot of pages as many of the feats already exist. Some feats could be crossover or open to all but only certain ones as a starting feat. Like humans starting with skilled.
This feats would not count as your background feat as that would be unfair to them as while characters of one race can select any feat they want from their background the half groups have to spend it on a feat to represent half their parentage.
Still at work and limited to my goddamn phone, but I'll say this, Snow:
It's not a bad start. But it's also multiple pages of PHB text, and over half of it is devoted to spelling out the Faerunian lore for half-elves and half-orcs. That information shouldn't be in the PHB, and frankly I'm left wondering if it wouldn't be best to move both species stat blocks to a Faerunian sourcebook if they must be retained. It seems like Faerun is the only realm where these things require their own distinct stat block, every other 'Official' world I know would be happy to use the Origins blurb.
I'll also note that you gave no guidance at all on what "selecting your racial traits" means or how to do it. Feels like that was forgotten in the pressure to get something out, but it's also the core of the argument sooo....
I don't care for tearing down the work of someone trying to build up an idea, but in this case I don't think this attempt is adequate. It leans far too heavily towards more-or-less shoehorning Faerunian half-folks in through the side door and in the doing it reads to me like other mixed-ancestry folks are undesirable afterthoughts. There's no concession given to worlds where Faerunian species and cultures don't exist, and I'm done with that being the default norm in the PHB if I can possibly help it.
Thank you. I drew exclusively upon my own experiences and experiences of players I knew for the content and did my best to represent different ways in which these people were treated. I didn't draw upon Faerun lore one bit for it.
As for the lack of guidance; mostly because I wasn't sure what to actually put into there. Best I could think of is providing a 'recommended' section and saying to ask your GM (which feels really unfair to the GM but if you don't want it to be set I feel like you'd need to ask anyways if only to go 'hey. Is X okay?'). I'm not a genius in the slightest.
As for the 'worlds without', at some point you have to actually provide content even if the players can immediately override it with their own homebrew setting. I mean, think about it, imagine trying to describe a 'klingon' or a 'half-klingon' without touching upon their culture and history in the slightest. You'd miss out on so much of what makes them function and be left with a bland and, frankly, underwhelming description that doesn't do justice to characters like Worf and the struggles that they went through. Even if we included a massive 600 page book about world-building if we refused to go into detail as to what an elf culture might look like or do because some players will homebrew it into something else, we'd be left with piles upon piles of bland, dry, text and no clearer idea of what an elf actually acts like. It's great to leave things open ended; but you also can't build a building without some walls.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood something here. I did try my best.
Oh! I can clear that up for you.
It's because the new Players Handbook isn't going to have the same dual function that the current one has. It's not meant to be a de facto setting guide for Faerun. Or any other particular setting! Just like Monsters of the Multiverse, it's supposed to be setting-neutral, insofar as it can be.
Edit: If there ends up being a Faerun setting guide, expect to see half elf lore fleshed out, but their mechanics unchanged. Exactly how it is in Eberron.
Thank you for the example. I'll definitely look it over! :)
She. You are cherry-picking your evidence here. In her very second sentence, she states her argument, which you either ignored or misunderstood.
"The argument is that the Half-Elf Stat block has absolutely nothing to do with the Human stat block or the Elf stat block."
She continues.
"It is its own third separate thing, with no relation or connection to either of its so-called "parent" species."
You specifically and deliberately omitted this portion of her post to move the goal posts and then make the case that this mechanical distinction from either parent race is somehow lending to the desired narrative of being ostracized from both societies. This is silly, given there is no evidence for this beyond your imagination. Can you cite a single source that specifies that it is their mechanical abilities that make them unfit for a role in either elven or human society in any of 5e? Or any of the expanded lore? It has been a long time since I read any D&D family novels but I recall nothing of the sort.
Elaborate. Elaborate with evidence that half-elves are universally driven to such extremes to survive, that they must spontaneously develop some shared, distinct traits that are conveniently superior to their parentage just to function in society. I cannot wait to see what you have.
+2/+1/+1, darkvision, advantage on saving throws against being charmed, magic cannot put you to sleep, proficiency in two skills of your choice or replace it with whatever elf perk you want. I mean, you must not really know what is on either parent race if you cannot see how this is superior. It takes the best of both to create some kind of super soldier. Elves just get +2, darkvision, proficiency in one skill, trance, with some small variations among the subraces that the half-elf has the option to take too. Humans get +1 to each score. This is why half-elves are so popular and why you are fighting so hard. It is not I who thinks there are no other choices. It is you. In fact, the stats were the very heart of your position from early on:
Need I go on? It is the entire source of your anger as stated by YOU.
Circular reasoning and frankly, just not a very smart argument. My point that you were responding to stated that you cannot do something simply because it was done so in the past, because that is a logical fallacy. Your rebuttal? "Sure you can because that is what has always been done". Your argument is that we should continue to do illogical, harmful things because we always have, then used an example that is mechanically inferior to the one example you are trying to shield. Breathtaking argument, really. Further, just because humans are rarely a bad choice, does not make them superior to half-elves. There are really specific situations, mechanically, where humans are the better option. If your stats are all odds for example, this would be a situation where it would be especially beneficial to get a +1 in every ability score. But even this is not universal because an even or odd load out would be immaterial if you are playing a class that is SAD. Then there is the issue of needing to create more mixed races with inexplicable superior traits than their parents just to be consistent with the message sent in their game design. The better solution that causes the least harm is to remove the problem rather than try to paint over it and 1DD is the perfect opportunity for WotC to unload a lot of garbage in their game. They are taking advantage of that opportunity whether you like it or not.
Perhaps. I have seen plenty of posts here that lead me to believe empathy is in critically short supply on the side of those who wish to keep half-elves as they are now. Mostly due to the dismissive attitudes and invalidation of one poster who had specifically stated how they have been impacted in this very thread... multiple times. And if you read every post in the thread, you undoubtedly saw them.
Incorrect. One poster here told you and others that they had been impacted. Your side then drove them from this thread with calloused responses. I encourage reflection.
Does one need to have a crisis to experience harm? Is harm only material to you if it drives a person to something as extreme as self-injury or to have some kind of breakdown? Why is the threshold so high when the alternative is to just change how half-elves are presented mechanically, which has a comparatively low impact? It seems that we have two different measures and the bulk of the weight is clearly given to the one that gives you more fun. Again, I encourage reflection.
I find it unsavory that something you do not understand, by your own admission, is labeled as hypersensitivity. Reflection is the word of the hour here.
Yurei1453 provided you with an example, saving me from legwork.
If you are not anchored to your current +2 to CHA, then there is no point to any of your posts. The hill you swore to die on has been abandoned.
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I may be wrong here but I don't think he's anchored to the +2 CHA so much because it's a +2 CHA so much as it's the HALF-ELVES +2 CHA. I.E. He wants to keep it as he considered it a defining trait of the race. Humans are vesitile, dwarves are hardy, elves are dexterous, and half-elves are charismatic as it were.
Like, half-elves don't have the same bonuses across RP systems and editions (maybe close, but not the same). But that doesn't mean that the bonuses, whatever bonuses they are, are somehow not part of their identity as a race at least within that system. If I played a half-elf in some hypothetical other game, I would want my racial abilities/bonuses to distinctly be the half-elves regardless of what they were and I would be pretty... disheartened... if they went 'pick one from the human and one from the elf' or something. I alluded to this before. If you can swap around your racial traits freely and easily, are you an X, or a Y that just so happens to LOOK like an X? I do feel that a races traits, whatever said traits are, are indeed part of their identity. We can update and change them as we buff/nerf/fix/whatever, but when you remove them and go 'just pick from another race', unless your race is some sort of weird shifter/frankenstein's monster type thingy, it robs them of at least part of their identity IMO.
Let me be clear here. I'm not saying you can't change a racial ability/stat/etc. I'm saying that making it fluid, unless that was the entire point of the race, robs it of part of its identity. If it gets discovered that you were, intentionally or not, being discriminatory and want to fix it, that's fine. No problem. I just don't feel it should be REMOVED.
Opening up mixed races seems to be a good thing to me.
But I think a sidebar is insufficient. My belief is that they should devote as much space to it as would ordinarily be reserved to the considerations of multiclassing or background selection.
Backgrounds, for instance, give us a recipe on how to make backgrounds and then a sample list.
I believe that being able to create a character of mixed race by having a middle ground of the fluff and cosmetics and then picking from the mechanical features on one parent is a good start. However, I think it's too extreme/not nuanced enough to portray the classical half-elf and half-orc... which have been with us since D&D 2E and have had more than 3 decades to build an identity and a following. I think those two have been with us long enough to deserve more than a footnote in 1DnD.
If the 2024 PHB outlined mixed race rules and then provide samples of mixed-and-matched of the classical half-orc and half-elf... then a new player wouldn't have to access 5E material to access the classic takes on the half-elf and half-orc, but they'd totally still be able to pick the more-human half-elf and/or a more-elf half-elf too that the sidebar described.
Essentially, everyone wins. Having a place for samples would also introduces an opening category to provide creation rules for more obscure mixes, such as the Athasian half-giants (since giants are not a possible PHB race)
I don't see how it is stupid. Now you can have a half orc that isn't just half human but something else, same with elf. It also allows an easy way to make a half-anything.
I suppose it could be better like "take 1 trait from one race and one from another" but that can make a mess of balancing and they'd need to restructure racial traits to categorize them like Type A and Type B, so people can just make a half-something and take the best from both.
I feel that would be an acceptable compromise.
Sigh.
OTL.
Everybody who thinks it's "Simplicity itself" to make an official canon way to mingle species? Write those rules up. Write up the entry you want to see in the book.
Then ask ten million people to use those rules exactly as written, without any flex or budge, and you're not allowed to explain any confusion or bad blood your writing incites, even accidentally. You have to hand it to ten million people, and that's the very last thing you can do with it. And remember - people are going to use those rules for any species ever invented for D&D in the last thirty years, and any new ones invented in the next ten.
Provide a ruleset you think robust enough to withstand that scenario, if you would.
Please do not contact or message me.
And, if you manage that, be prepared for everyone who cares deeply about optimization to be playing the "standard mix", which is probably something like aarakora/orc, or autognome/plasmoid.
'Throughout the many different worlds of Dungeons and Dragons there are many races that exist. Though loves arrow tends to seek those of the same species, it can often strike those of entirely different species and children may result from this critical success of romance. Some pairings are far more common than others, such as a human and an elf producing a half-elven child, while others are rarer to find for multiple reasons, such as a centaur and minotaur. This section is dedicated to these multi-racial beings, how to create one, and examples of common pairings including several D&D mainstays such as the half-elf and half-orc. It should be noted that this will only cover entries where both parent races are playable races and not situations where, while a character may have parents of different races, one of those races is non-playable. Be sure to consult with your GM beforehand to ensure the desired pairing is acceptable and fitting to the world.
When it comes to creating a child of such a wonderous pairing first select two humanoid races you wish to have for your parent races. While a GM may rule that a certain pairing (such as a human and a tortle) is non-viable, most humanoid race crossings should be acceptable. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. It is unlikely you will fully resemble one of your two parent races and your physical features will likely appear to be somewhere between the two. For example: Half-elves, unlike their human parents, typically have pointed ears that possess a degree of motion and sentistivity, but are also much smaller than their elven parents and being nowhere near as mobile or sentitive. Please note that this is done mostly for roleplay purposes and these may not have any actual statistical bonuses associated with them.
When it comes to selecting your racial traits, it is best to consult with your GM to see what will be acceptable. Do not be surprised if they decree one particular combination to be too strong and request you take a weaker set of abilities. Selecting all the racial traits from one of your two parent species will likely prevent any issues though it may not be always fitting to the character.
When it comes to determining your characters lifespan, your average will likely be around half-way between that of both your parent races. For races that are exceptionally long-lived or immortal (be it via magic or some other means), then it may be best to have your character age like normal until they reach young adult-hood at which point they age at half the rate of their shorter-lived parent.
If any of your players happen to have real-life experience with a mixed heritage, it is best to defer to them or at least consult them about proper representation within the game. The following is simply some general world-building advise and concepts that may or may not hold true for your campaign, but still serves as a decent starting point for those wishing to create such characters or include them in their world.
Half-Elves (human): Coming from a human and elven parent, half-elves are probably the most widely-accepted and liked of those with parents of different species. Within human society they occupy a unique niche in that, while those with discriminatory viewpoints will gladly single them out for harassment and children will pick on them for being different, the vast majority of common folk will see them as exotic, interesting, and desirable. Some human nobles take elven spouses and the resulting children further re-inforce this viewpoint. A half-elf may be nothing more than a turnip farmer but an entriprising merchant may dress them up in fine clothes and put them out front in their stores to make it seem more prestegious and attract more clients. Many half-elves have ease navigating various social circles due this perception regardless of any actual capabilities. Some half-elves revel in this attention and gladly utilize this perceived desirability for status and attention while others become irritated or even disgusted by it as it means that their accomplishments are often given unwarrented praise.
Among elven societies half-elves are often treated with a distant hand. Many will find that, while they may be treated as 'special' and told they are 'loved' they are often shut out almost entirely from elven society. Cut out from inheritences, finding invisible barriers, and given lesser tasks frequently. If an elven ruler had a half-elf child, said child might find that, despite being 'beloved' by the populace and having no siblings putting them in line for the throne, it will be some full-elven distant relative who ends up being crowned. There are more accepting groups of elves, especially those who interact with the outside world reguarly, and said elves will see half-elves as being little different from any other elf or human, whichever the half-elf identifies with more.
Half-elves have proven to be successful and have grown in number enough to form their own distinct minority group in human lands as well. Half-elves tend to age at a rate similar to humans until around age 15 at which point they slow-down to half the rate of humans.
Suggested traits: (Enter here)
Half-orc (human): Tough and prone to violance, the common perception of half-orcs is not a positive one. Many will automatically assume the absolute worst about both a half-orc and their parents regardless of any actual reality. The truth is that half-orcs are no more prone to aggression than anyone else though many were raised in a society where that was the only choice. Half-orcs tend to be very hard workers and meritocratic with many becoming extremely skilled and capable in their chosen field due to having to work very hard to overcome negative stereotypes. A half-orc chef, for example, will often pour in 110% into their cooking and create wonderful meals, taking pride in how delicious and filling their food is. A half-orc scholar might spend hours upon hours doing research to the point of sacrificing sleep, but be proud of the status they've earned within the scholarly community and be furious whenever their accomplishments are belittled or denied.
Among orcish cultures half-orcs are often seen as 'weak' and treated as incapable. However, those who manage an accomplishment get treated with respect and praise. Half-orcs seeking the approval of their orcish half will typically engage in daring feats to prove their power, might, and capabilities. Once proven they will be fully accepted by the society and seen as having 'proven themselves'. Though there may be lingering issues, they are usually handled with a reminder of the half-orcs accomplishments.
Those who successfully befriend half-orcs tend to consider them close and loyal friends and, frequently, find them to end up being among their closest friends for the rest of their lives. Half-orcs tend to age at the same rate at humans, though they remain physically fit and suffer the negative effects of aging less than their human halves.
Suggested Traits: (Enter here)
Half-Dwarves (human): Half-dwarves are a rarity. Most dwarves simply do not come into frequent contact with humans in the first place to even form relationships. Those who do tend to be travelers and merchants, frequently outcasts from normal tribal society to begin with. Most humans struggle to identify half-dwarves and it is very difficult to know how many half-dwarves exist among human societies as a result. While typically being stout, hardy, a bit short, and very gifted in the beard department, there is nothing overridingly distinct about them to provide for easy identification. In the rare situations where the heritage is known, most humans simply do not know how to react. Some will assume they are capable smiths, stone-masons, or fighters while others will hold negative associations, assume they are drunkards, or many other things.
Among half-dwarven societies few humans exist as most are simply unwilling to spend large amounts of time cooped up inside dwarven cities with little to no access to the outside. As a result human spouses are extremely rare to begin with, with most dwarves having never knowingly met one in their lives. A half-dwarf, by extension, is even rarer. Confusion is the closest thing to a universal reaction with the exact specifics depending entirely on the particular dwarven society.
Suggested traits: (Enter here)
Half-Dwarf/Half Furblog: The eternal lords of body hair. All bow before the sheer volume and thickness of their beards, sideburns, chest hair, and hair in general. None can dare to hope to compare and all bow down in worship to the sheer luxuriousness of their body hair.
Okay, maybe not the last one...
I'm happy for you, or sorry that happened. I ain't reading all that. ;P
If this wasn't even intended to meet the brief, I am left wondering why you made it at all. Sorry, that sounds really dismissive and hurtful. I'm simply confused.
Also, it's limited to only humanoids, but we have oozes, constructs, fey, and monstrosities now too. I sort of understand if they're not allowed to mingle with humanoids, but surely they can with one another? If not construct and fey, at least fey and fey?
Well, mostly because, after so much complaining about how things SHOULD have been done but making no effort to actually DO anything, it feels like the whole thing has devolved down to 'Wizards should do X! What? Me actually DO anything? Heck naw! Instead of actually trying to fix what I see as a problem by offering a solution I'll just spend several weeks in a 12- page threat complaining about it!'
So, ya know, went out and actually tried to do something. I doubt Wizards will care, but at the same time, it's putting my money where my mouth is. I said I was fine with it getting expanded, so I went and did it. I won't pretend it's perfect by any means, but I at least DID something to try and fix what I saw as a problem!
Edit: I want to be absolutely clear that I don't see what I did as some absolute truth, gospal truth, or even necessarily 'right'. Just an attempt to improve on what was offered and flesh it out to be a bit more than a side-bar and even offer some general ideas and building blocks for character concepts. I totally understand it needing fixing or if I did something 'wrong'. It's not my intention to start a fight with this, just to at least try to put a brick towards a solution instead.
I would like to explain my feelings around the "Children of Different Humanoid Kinds" sidebar. When I said was uncomfortable with Half Elves and Half Orcs it was never a huge thing or at the forefront of my mind but when it comes to discomfort with racial stuff that's par for the course. For me I experience racial discrimination as something constant, low level, and pervasive. It's usually never outright or even explicit, but rather just assumptions or offhand remarks that itch like a hair shirt. I certainly don't have it as bad as some people of color who experience legitimately deadly encounters with the police force who is supposed to protect them, so it's not like it's life threatening, except in the long slow death of the soul kind of way.
The insidious part of this kind of subtle discomfort is that is becomes normal. You internalize it and cease to notice it after awhile. You come to expect it. When someone is low key and snidely racist or even unconsciously racist without realizing it, you just kind of let it slide because it's too much work and disruption to your day to call it out, only to get blamed for being "too sensitive" or "rocking the boat."
But you know what is noticeable? Those rare occasions when something or someone improves of their own accord and not after a bitter and vicious fight to preserve a racist status quo. It's like finally taking a big breath of fresh air after years of having to breathe shallowly because you live next to a garbage dump. This is how I feel about the 1DD guidelines for multiracial characters. I absolutely wasn't expecting WOTC to come out with a treatment of multiracial characters that acknowledges and honors their heritage while also not setting them aside as mechanically different oddities separate from other people. I mean, can they do that? Just like, make changes that treat people better without being asked?
I was totally shocked. And after taking that big gulp of fresh air, I knew right away I didn't want to go back to breathing garbage air, even if I hadn't noticed before that I was breathing garbage air because I had gotten so used to it. So it's not like the treatment of multiracial people was an issue that was even on the radar for me, it just kind of faded into the background of low level crud that's just always there. But when I saw how easily it could be changed, I was amazed.
I'm not mad about Half Elves and Half Orcs the way they are in 5E. I don't condemn anyone for liking them they way they are and I never have, you can look back over the discussion in this thread and check me on that if you'd like. I do think that the way the playtest handles them is much much better, though and I like it. I'm not saying everyone has to like it, I'm just saying I like it myself. For what it's worth, I think the flexibility that you get with the combination of Special Traits, Ability Score Bonus, Skill Proficiencies, Language, Feat, and even equipment are enough to mechanically represent a person of mixed heritage in a significant way. I understand that people may disagree with that.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Also means you start to have an understanding of the scope of, at least, the mechanical problem. Maybe even the narrative problem, too.
Still at work and limited to my goddamn phone, but I'll say this, Snow:
It's not a bad start. But it's also multiple pages of PHB text, and over half of it is devoted to spelling out the Faerunian lore for half-elves and half-orcs. That information shouldn't be in the PHB, and frankly I'm left wondering if it wouldn't be best to move both species stat blocks to a Faerunian sourcebook if they must be retained. It seems like Faerun is the only realm where these things require their own distinct stat block, every other 'Official' world I know would be happy to use the Origins blurb.
I'll also note that you gave no guidance at all on what "selecting your racial traits" means or how to do it. Feels like that was forgotten in the pressure to get something out, but it's also the core of the argument sooo....
I don't care for tearing down the work of someone trying to build up an idea, but in this case I don't think this attempt is adequate. It leans far too heavily towards more-or-less shoehorning Faerunian half-folks in through the side door and in the doing it reads to me like other mixed-ancestry folks are undesirable afterthoughts. There's no concession given to worlds where Faerunian species and cultures don't exist, and I'm done with that being the default norm in the PHB if I can possibly help it.
Please do not contact or message me.
I've recently come to the conclusion that a Faerun source book (something much thicker than the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide) probably should have been a thing they sold for 5e a long time ago. That way, fans of the setting can run their own homebrew campaigns in the world, which leaves more room for them to diversify what kind of material they put out instead of almost every module being in Faerun.
You can do it better than the current play test. That is all some of are saying.
This is a playtest and that is the purpose of it. To see how it works.
Taldorei Reborn does it better.
You can also take some from Pathfinder. There are feats that have a racial perquisite in 5E. You could alter some of them to remove a ASI and say that if you select a child of two different humanoid types. Then you select a feat from each one and have one extra of either. With the prerequisite of being of that race. Doesn't have to take a lot of pages as many of the feats already exist. Some feats could be crossover or open to all but only certain ones as a starting feat. Like humans starting with skilled.
This feats would not count as your background feat as that would be unfair to them as while characters of one race can select any feat they want from their background the half groups have to spend it on a feat to represent half their parentage.
Thank you. I drew exclusively upon my own experiences and experiences of players I knew for the content and did my best to represent different ways in which these people were treated. I didn't draw upon Faerun lore one bit for it.
As for the lack of guidance; mostly because I wasn't sure what to actually put into there. Best I could think of is providing a 'recommended' section and saying to ask your GM (which feels really unfair to the GM but if you don't want it to be set I feel like you'd need to ask anyways if only to go 'hey. Is X okay?'). I'm not a genius in the slightest.
As for the 'worlds without', at some point you have to actually provide content even if the players can immediately override it with their own homebrew setting. I mean, think about it, imagine trying to describe a 'klingon' or a 'half-klingon' without touching upon their culture and history in the slightest. You'd miss out on so much of what makes them function and be left with a bland and, frankly, underwhelming description that doesn't do justice to characters like Worf and the struggles that they went through. Even if we included a massive 600 page book about world-building if we refused to go into detail as to what an elf culture might look like or do because some players will homebrew it into something else, we'd be left with piles upon piles of bland, dry, text and no clearer idea of what an elf actually acts like. It's great to leave things open ended; but you also can't build a building without some walls.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood something here. I did try my best.