Going through this i found things to like and dislike (like the current grapple).
One of the likes is relates to unarmed attacks - more than just hit but now adding grab and shove. It's more realistic to the contact but you'd need to state in advance what you are using to attack (hand, foot/leg, etc..) You can't grapple with your foot, outside of certain races (maybe). It gives you choice and options to damage, hold or move... all of which are normal when you fight hand-to-hand.
One of the dislikes is around movement. I know a medium can grapple large and small grapple medium but if you've ever done this, you'll know that leverage is needed for movement.. and size differences of that type are big when it comes to leverage. The TImmy example above.. sure, he can grapple the warhorse (grab it by the mane) but he won't be able to move it and he'd be at a disadvantage to prevent it from moving. he can slow it down (maybe) but would be dragged along instead of doing the dragging - try to move a horse that refuses to.. it'll probably drag you as it walks away. It should be you can only move your size or smaller and then with disadvantages until until it is one size smaller (not 2). The ability score check (dex or str) will cover physical capabilities from that - medium grappling small, medium normal role, small at disadvantage. Doesn't mean small cannot get away or the like but they have a very tough time moving others unless they are much stronger or have some other form of leverage.
I'd add in the stuck forever problem solution. Try fighting hand to hand and get grappled. When you break free, especially using dex, you are moving away. So a Dex breaking of grappling moves you 5-10 feet (or more) from the grappler. They'd have to come after you to grab you again - come into your reach risking an opportunity attack. Again, that's much more like real hand combat. STR breaks, give an check to move after the break - do you pull free and spin away or back away as you break contact, again a normal action... the grappler wouldn't get an action since they are off-kilter from the broken grapple. In fact, you could give it a choice.. use Dex/Athletic to break grapple and move 5-10 feet away (spin, twist move) or use Str/Athletic to break and get a free attack (one hit with hand or light weapon - or a bludgeoning attack with pommel of sword for d4+str, like a club). Thats what normally would happen given the two options while fighting.
I do like the move to make grappling helpful AND give more to unarmed attacks. I do think it needs a bit of additional tweaking.
Here's a late reply, but I wanted to address the "stuck forever" problem.
READY the DASH action for when you break free.
That doesn't fix much since the UA rules allow you to grapple as an Attack of Opportunity. You just end up grappled again. Stuck forever unless you can teleport yourself to freedom via Misty Step or similar ability.
That doesn't fix much since the UA rules allow you to grapple as an Attack of Opportunity. You just end up grappled again. Stuck forever unless you can teleport yourself to freedom via Misty Step or similar ability.
The expectation is that you free yourself by killing the grappler, I guess. Doesn't help much if you're weaker and just trying to get away, though.
Here's a late reply, but I wanted to address the "stuck forever" problem.
READY the DASH action for when you break free.
That doesn't fix much since the UA rules allow you to grapple as an Attack of Opportunity. You just end up grappled again. Stuck forever unless you can teleport yourself to freedom via Misty Step or similar ability.
your best bet is to take the dodge action, which against a monk that can attack 4 times a turn... isn't going to go well but you'll make them burn their ki points quickly. At least as far as I am aware nothing stops you dodging every round while grappled and still checking the escape attempt. It isn't removing the issue but making it hard to pull off a continuous grapple.
How do these grapple rules work with flying? Can you hit, then fly away carrying the grappled target? Carrying capacity probably applies, and characters probably can't carry most targets. a 20 STR character could carry a total of 99 lbs before losing 10' of movement to encumbrance, or 199 to 300 lbs losing 20' of movement to encumbrance (and being subject to the other encumbrance penalties.) Typically equipment and other gear, both on the character and on the target, will be a portion of that carrying capacity, so it seems situational that a character could grapple and fly off with a target. And you are at half speed when moving a grappled creature. Still, a 20 STR character that can move as a bonus action and has the Fly spell cast on them could still carry a approximately 200 lb. target that they hit with an unarmed melee attack and elect to grapple 60'. Or carry the target 40' straight up and still fly 60' after dropping them. This was always possible with flying, but I think hitting is easier than grappling was.
Can you fly and ignore encumbrance if you drag the grappled target on the ground? Basically, it's the same outcome as flying, you could drag something really heavy 5', or if within your carrying capacity, moving away on your last leg of movement would probably provoke an attack of opportunity unlike dropping the target(?).
How about with the Ardling or Orc or Rogues with bonus actions that can be movement, is movement economy now a thing where if you can hit you could pull targets effectively out of combat to isolate them? I assume you can turn and move the target around you and dropping targets off cliffs is easier? I see a general agreement that the grappled target and grappler stay in relative position to each other, moving always in the same direction. This is handled by being positioned correctly to take advantage of any environmental hazards before starting the cycle. But a character that has a high base speed can offset the Slowed condition from moving a grappled target. If you have a base speed of 50', against a grappled target with a base speed of 30', you can move it 75'. Or move it 50', then move yourself back 50'. So if this is a target using melee, you can make an unarmed strike, on hit grapple, and trade taking an attack of opportunity for it's action as it dashes back into combat. Again, possible before, but seems like this could become much more common now that grappling is more likely for a wider array of characters.
I guess you could hit them with an unarmed strike and shove them. The forced movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, though if they are large/otherwise have more than 5' reach on unarmed attacks that isn't helping much.
Here's a late reply, but I wanted to address the "stuck forever" problem.
READY the DASH action for when you break free.
That doesn't fix much since the UA rules allow you to grapple as an Attack of Opportunity. You just end up grappled again. Stuck forever unless you can teleport yourself to freedom via Misty Step or similar ability.
your best bet is to take the dodge action, which against a monk that can attack 4 times a turn... isn't going to go well but you'll make them burn their ki points quickly. At least as far as I am aware nothing stops you dodging every round while grappled and still checking the escape attempt. It isn't removing the issue but making it hard to pull off a continuous grapple.
Can't dodge while grappled. Speed is zero
your speed is zero while grappled, but if you escape then your speed is no longer zero. You can still dodge, you just don't get the benefits while speed is zero, or you take it as a readied action for after you escape, same difference.
I guess you could hit them with an unarmed strike and shove them. The forced movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, though if they are large/otherwise have more than 5' reach on unarmed attacks that isn't helping much.
Depends on who you are meaning to shove... If someone shoves the grappled creature away from its grappler, yes that will break the grapple. Not so if the grappler is the one being shoved. This has been discussed previously and hopefully will be better clarified in the final rules.
I guess you could hit them with an unarmed strike and shove them. The forced movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, though if they are large/otherwise have more than 5' reach on unarmed attacks that isn't helping much.
Depends on who you are meaning to shove... If someone shoves the grappled creature away from its grappler, yes that will break the grapple. Not so if the grappler is the one being shoved. This has been discussed previously and hopefully will be better clarified in the final rules.
You can only shove someone 5 feet, so anyone other than the grappler or grappled shoving won't break the grapple. But the grappled can absolutely shove the grappler away and break free early.
I guess you could hit them with an unarmed strike and shove them. The forced movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, though if they are large/otherwise have more than 5' reach on unarmed attacks that isn't helping much.
Depends on who you are meaning to shove... If someone shoves the grappled creature away from its grappler, yes that will break the grapple. Not so if the grappler is the one being shoved. This has been discussed previously and hopefully will be better clarified in the final rules.
You can only shove someone 5 feet, so anyone other than the grappler or grappled shoving won't break the grapple. But the grappled can absolutely shove the grappler away and break free early.
Actually, the rules say the grapple breaks if the target of the grapple is moved without using their movement, it does not say anything about the grappler being moved. So without further clarification of the rules, it would seem that shoving the grappler away leaves the grapplee still grappled and stuck.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I guess you could hit them with an unarmed strike and shove them. The forced movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, though if they are large/otherwise have more than 5' reach on unarmed attacks that isn't helping much.
Depends on who you are meaning to shove... If someone shoves the grappled creature away from its grappler, yes that will break the grapple. Not so if the grappler is the one being shoved. This has been discussed previously and hopefully will be better clarified in the final rules.
You can only shove someone 5 feet, so anyone other than the grappler or grappled shoving won't break the grapple. But the grappled can absolutely shove the grappler away and break free early.
Actually, the rules say the grapple breaks if the target of the grapple is moved without using their movement, it does not say anything about the grappler being moved. So without further clarification of the rules, it would seem that shoving the grappler away leaves the grapplee still grappled and stuck.
An oversight, I'm sure. Both parties must remain within reach for the grapple to be maintained. They should have caught that, unless they left it as a trap to see who would notice.
I guess you could hit them with an unarmed strike and shove them. The forced movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, though if they are large/otherwise have more than 5' reach on unarmed attacks that isn't helping much.
Depends on who you are meaning to shove... If someone shoves the grappled creature away from its grappler, yes that will break the grapple. Not so if the grappler is the one being shoved. This has been discussed previously and hopefully will be better clarified in the final rules.
You can only shove someone 5 feet, so anyone other than the grappler or grappled shoving won't break the grapple. But the grappled can absolutely shove the grappler away and break free early.
Actually, the rules say the grapple breaks if the target of the grapple is moved without using their movement, it does not say anything about the grappler being moved. So without further clarification of the rules, it would seem that shoving the grappler away leaves the grapplee still grappled and stuck.
An oversight, I'm sure. Both parties must remain within reach for the grapple to be maintained. They should have caught that, unless they left it as a trap to see who would notice.
Hopefullyan oversight. But as for now, shoving the grappler will just allow him to drag his victim along with him during the forced movement, as discussed extensively in this thread already. Let's not reopen that issue.
I guess you could hit them with an unarmed strike and shove them. The forced movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, though if they are large/otherwise have more than 5' reach on unarmed attacks that isn't helping much.
Depends on who you are meaning to shove... If someone shoves the grappled creature away from its grappler, yes that will break the grapple. Not so if the grappler is the one being shoved. This has been discussed previously and hopefully will be better clarified in the final rules.
You can only shove someone 5 feet, so anyone other than the grappler or grappled shoving won't break the grapple. But the grappled can absolutely shove the grappler away and break free early.
Actually, the rules say the grapple breaks if the target of the grapple is moved without using their movement, it does not say anything about the grappler being moved. So without further clarification of the rules, it would seem that shoving the grappler away leaves the grapplee still grappled and stuck.
An oversight, I'm sure. Both parties must remain within reach for the grapple to be maintained. They should have caught that, unless they left it as a trap to see who would notice.
Hopefullyan oversight. But as for now, shoving the grappler will just allow him to drag his victim along with him during the forced movement, as discussed extensively in this thread already. Let's not reopen that issue.
I don't have a lot of time. Was it ever established the grappler can drag the target via forced movement?
I guess you could hit them with an unarmed strike and shove them. The forced movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, though if they are large/otherwise have more than 5' reach on unarmed attacks that isn't helping much.
Depends on who you are meaning to shove... If someone shoves the grappled creature away from its grappler, yes that will break the grapple. Not so if the grappler is the one being shoved. This has been discussed previously and hopefully will be better clarified in the final rules.
You can only shove someone 5 feet, so anyone other than the grappler or grappled shoving won't break the grapple. But the grappled can absolutely shove the grappler away and break free early.
Actually, the rules say the grapple breaks if the target of the grapple is moved without using their movement, it does not say anything about the grappler being moved. So without further clarification of the rules, it would seem that shoving the grappler away leaves the grapplee still grappled and stuck.
An oversight, I'm sure. Both parties must remain within reach for the grapple to be maintained. They should have caught that, unless they left it as a trap to see who would notice.
Hopefullyan oversight. But as for now, shoving the grappler will just allow him to drag his victim along with him during the forced movement, as discussed extensively in this thread already. Let's not reopen that issue.
I don't have a lot of time. Was it ever established the grappler can drag the target via forced movement?
Best as can be determined, and sadly, yes. The Grappled status is what confers the "Moveable" to the victim, allowing the grappler to drag or carry you when you're grappled.
My main concern is that this is going to lead to situations where someone is essentially grappled forever. If a player or monster gets grappled they can only break out at the very end of their turn, which means the thing that's keeping them grappled will get another turn to grapple them again. So anything with a multiattack can fairly easily keep something grappled (and prone, giving them advantage to keep the train going, if they knock them down) pretty much as long as they want. Yes they might have to spend one attack every time the grapple breaks to reestablish it, but I'm not quite sure if that is a big enough cost. Will probably have to test it out and see how it plays out in game.
We ran into this situation last night fighting giant scorpions. If they hit with the claws, the automatically grapple - and they get two shots at that. Then unless I am somehow magically moved out of the area of threat of the monster, even if I saved to break the grapple, I was just grappled next turn. And I saw magically moved because I would imagine that if an ally pulled me out, the scorpion would get an opportunity attack that, if it hits, grapples me again.
Our original thought was to also allow the taking of an action to break the grapple, but then what happens if you fail it as an action? Do you get another chance at the end of your turn?
But as you say, it's something that will just have to see how it plays out.
I wonder if this could all be fixed with a new action such as:
Recover: you may spend your action to make a new save against an ability that has a duration of 1 round or allows a save at the end of your turn.
Thus, if you're grappled, you could take the recover action, and if successful still have your bonus action and move available to get away (you might then get grappled with an opportunity attack, which is not great, but it's more of an option than you had before).
And I saw magically moved because I would imagine that if an ally pulled me out, the scorpion would get an opportunity attack that, if it hits, grapples me again.
No, you don't get OA if you are moved by something else and don't use your own Movement.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
And I saw magically moved because I would imagine that if an ally pulled me out, the scorpion would get an opportunity attack that, if it hits, grapples me again.
No, you don't get OA if you are moved by something else and don't use your own Movement.
Thanks for that clarification.
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Here's a late reply, but I wanted to address the "stuck forever" problem.
READY the DASH action for when you break free.
Going through this i found things to like and dislike (like the current grapple).
One of the likes is relates to unarmed attacks - more than just hit but now adding grab and shove. It's more realistic to the contact but you'd need to state in advance what you are using to attack (hand, foot/leg, etc..) You can't grapple with your foot, outside of certain races (maybe). It gives you choice and options to damage, hold or move... all of which are normal when you fight hand-to-hand.
One of the dislikes is around movement. I know a medium can grapple large and small grapple medium but if you've ever done this, you'll know that leverage is needed for movement.. and size differences of that type are big when it comes to leverage. The TImmy example above.. sure, he can grapple the warhorse (grab it by the mane) but he won't be able to move it and he'd be at a disadvantage to prevent it from moving. he can slow it down (maybe) but would be dragged along instead of doing the dragging - try to move a horse that refuses to.. it'll probably drag you as it walks away.
It should be you can only move your size or smaller and then with disadvantages until until it is one size smaller (not 2). The ability score check (dex or str) will cover physical capabilities from that - medium grappling small, medium normal role, small at disadvantage. Doesn't mean small cannot get away or the like but they have a very tough time moving others unless they are much stronger or have some other form of leverage.
I'd add in the stuck forever problem solution. Try fighting hand to hand and get grappled. When you break free, especially using dex, you are moving away. So a Dex breaking of grappling moves you 5-10 feet (or more) from the grappler. They'd have to come after you to grab you again - come into your reach risking an opportunity attack. Again, that's much more like real hand combat. STR breaks, give an check to move after the break - do you pull free and spin away or back away as you break contact, again a normal action... the grappler wouldn't get an action since they are off-kilter from the broken grapple. In fact, you could give it a choice.. use Dex/Athletic to break grapple and move 5-10 feet away (spin, twist move) or use Str/Athletic to break and get a free attack (one hit with hand or light weapon - or a bludgeoning attack with pommel of sword for d4+str, like a club). Thats what normally would happen given the two options while fighting.
I do like the move to make grappling helpful AND give more to unarmed attacks. I do think it needs a bit of additional tweaking.
That doesn't fix much since the UA rules allow you to grapple as an Attack of Opportunity. You just end up grappled again. Stuck forever unless you can teleport yourself to freedom via Misty Step or similar ability.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The expectation is that you free yourself by killing the grappler, I guess. Doesn't help much if you're weaker and just trying to get away, though.
your best bet is to take the dodge action, which against a monk that can attack 4 times a turn... isn't going to go well but you'll make them burn their ki points quickly. At least as far as I am aware nothing stops you dodging every round while grappled and still checking the escape attempt. It isn't removing the issue but making it hard to pull off a continuous grapple.
Edit: answering my own questions.
How do these grapple rules work with flying? Can you hit, then fly away carrying the grappled target? Carrying capacity probably applies, and characters probably can't carry most targets. a 20 STR character could carry a total of 99 lbs before losing 10' of movement to encumbrance, or 199 to 300 lbs losing 20' of movement to encumbrance (and being subject to the other encumbrance penalties.) Typically equipment and other gear, both on the character and on the target, will be a portion of that carrying capacity, so it seems situational that a character could grapple and fly off with a target. And you are at half speed when moving a grappled creature. Still, a 20 STR character that can move as a bonus action and has the Fly spell cast on them could still carry a approximately 200 lb. target that they hit with an unarmed melee attack and elect to grapple 60'. Or carry the target 40' straight up and still fly 60' after dropping them. This was always possible with flying, but I think hitting is easier than grappling was.
Can you fly and ignore encumbrance if you drag the grappled target on the ground? Basically, it's the same outcome as flying, you could drag something really heavy 5', or if within your carrying capacity, moving away on your last leg of movement would probably provoke an attack of opportunity unlike dropping the target(?).
How about with the Ardling or Orc or Rogues with bonus actions that can be movement, is movement economy now a thing where if you can hit you could pull targets effectively out of combat to isolate them? I assume you can turn and move the target around you and dropping targets off cliffs is easier? I see a general agreement that the grappled target and grappler stay in relative position to each other, moving always in the same direction. This is handled by being positioned correctly to take advantage of any environmental hazards before starting the cycle. But a character that has a high base speed can offset the Slowed condition from moving a grappled target. If you have a base speed of 50', against a grappled target with a base speed of 30', you can move it 75'. Or move it 50', then move yourself back 50'. So if this is a target using melee, you can make an unarmed strike, on hit grapple, and trade taking an attack of opportunity for it's action as it dashes back into combat. Again, possible before, but seems like this could become much more common now that grappling is more likely for a wider array of characters.
I guess you could hit them with an unarmed strike and shove them. The forced movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, though if they are large/otherwise have more than 5' reach on unarmed attacks that isn't helping much.
your speed is zero while grappled, but if you escape then your speed is no longer zero. You can still dodge, you just don't get the benefits while speed is zero, or you take it as a readied action for after you escape, same difference.
Depends on who you are meaning to shove... If someone shoves the grappled creature away from its grappler, yes that will break the grapple. Not so if the grappler is the one being shoved. This has been discussed previously and hopefully will be better clarified in the final rules.
You can only shove someone 5 feet, so anyone other than the grappler or grappled shoving won't break the grapple. But the grappled can absolutely shove the grappler away and break free early.
Actually, the rules say the grapple breaks if the target of the grapple is moved without using their movement, it does not say anything about the grappler being moved. So without further clarification of the rules, it would seem that shoving the grappler away leaves the grapplee still grappled and stuck.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
An oversight, I'm sure. Both parties must remain within reach for the grapple to be maintained. They should have caught that, unless they left it as a trap to see who would notice.
Hopefully an oversight. But as for now, shoving the grappler will just allow him to drag his victim along with him during the forced movement, as discussed extensively in this thread already. Let's not reopen that issue.
I don't have a lot of time. Was it ever established the grappler can drag the target via forced movement?
Best as can be determined, and sadly, yes. The Grappled status is what confers the "Moveable" to the victim, allowing the grappler to drag or carry you when you're grappled.
We ran into this situation last night fighting giant scorpions. If they hit with the claws, the automatically grapple - and they get two shots at that. Then unless I am somehow magically moved out of the area of threat of the monster, even if I saved to break the grapple, I was just grappled next turn. And I saw magically moved because I would imagine that if an ally pulled me out, the scorpion would get an opportunity attack that, if it hits, grapples me again.
Our original thought was to also allow the taking of an action to break the grapple, but then what happens if you fail it as an action? Do you get another chance at the end of your turn?
But as you say, it's something that will just have to see how it plays out.
I wonder if this could all be fixed with a new action such as:
Recover: you may spend your action to make a new save against an ability that has a duration of 1 round or allows a save at the end of your turn.
Thus, if you're grappled, you could take the recover action, and if successful still have your bonus action and move available to get away (you might then get grappled with an opportunity attack, which is not great, but it's more of an option than you had before).
No, you don't get OA if you are moved by something else and don't use your own Movement.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Thanks for that clarification.