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My main concern is that this is going to lead to situations where someone is essentially grappled forever. If a player or monster gets grappled they can only break out at the very end of their turn, which means the thing that's keeping them grappled will get another turn to grapple them again. So anything with a multiattack can fairly easily keep something grappled (and prone, giving them advantage to keep the train going, if they knock them down) pretty much as long as they want. Yes they might have to spend one attack every time the grapple breaks to reestablish it, but I'm not quite sure if that is a big enough cost. Will probably have to test it out and see how it plays out in game.

 

We ran into this situation last night fighting giant scorpions.  If they hit with the claws, the automatically grapple - and they get two shots at that.  Then unless I am somehow magically moved out of the area of threat of the monster, even if I saved to break the grapple, I was just grappled next turn.  And I saw magically moved because I would imagine that if an ally pulled me out, the scorpion would get an opportunity attack that, if it hits, grapples me again.

Our original thought was to also allow the taking of an action to break the grapple, but then what happens if you fail it as an action? Do you get another chance at the end of your turn?

But as you say, it's something that will just have to see how it plays out.

 For players, there isn't much of a change.

Currently, in 5e, you spend your action to attempt an ability check to break free. And if successful, you can use your move to get away. A teleport automatically breaks it, and there are few other shortcuts (rogues and monks can be especially slippery). With the playtest, you can [Tooltip Not Found] action and move as soon as your saving throw is successful. Both provoke a single Opportunity Attack. The big difference is this makes locking down powerful NPCs more difficult. Proficiency with saving throws are more common than skills, and making the escape a saving throw means creatures with Legendary Resistance can just break free.

One time, running Curse of Strahd, a player built a barbarian with the Grappler feat. Their entire plan was to corner Strahd and keep him from escaping. I had to be especially careful getting into melee with them around because Strahd only had a +4 to escape, and they had a +7 with advantage while raging. He could polymorph out into a cloud of mist, but not if he was caught in sunlight. And they almost got him one time. She was scary. This change now gives him a +9 to escape, and he has Legendary Resistance to fall back on. So long as his legendary actions don't come immediately after the grappler's turn, he can easily get out of reach.

Logically, what's the essential difference between a grapple and entangling vines, for example? Why should one be an athletics check and another be a strength save?

I would say that when you are grappling against an opponent, you are both making moves and counter moves. It makes sense to model this as a contest of skills. On the other hand, if you are trying to escape from an entangle, you are struggling against the environment. The spell doesn't really fight back, it is just there. You can't incapacitate it by stabbing it with a dagger, for example. From a skills point of view, you may be trained in how to take down and pin another creature, but you probably haven't been trained in how to get unstuck from weeds (or spider webs, etc.). For that, you are using brute force (strength) or flexibility (dexterity) to power through.

Quote from kamchatmonk >>

Logically, what's the essential difference between a grapple and entangling vines, for example? Why should one be an athletics check and another be a strength save?

 The entangle spell might see an adjustment, but as of right now it automatically forces targets who fail their initial save to be restrained. That's a far cry from what grappling someone can do; barring a feat. We'll see what future UA gives us.

Quote from BaronRusso >>

I would say that when you are grappling against an opponent, you are both making moves and counter moves. It makes sense to model this as a contest of skills. On the other hand, if you are trying to escape from an entangle, you are struggling against the environment. The spell doesn't really fight back, it is just there. You can't incapacitate it by stabbing it with a dagger, for example. From a skills point of view, you may be trained in how to take down and pin another creature, but you probably haven't been trained in how to get unstuck from weeds (or spider webs, etc.). For that, you are using brute force (strength) or flexibility (dexterity) to power through.

 Then, what about french-kissing a Star Spawn? Is it a contest of skills, or do you fight its tendrils like you would fight entangling vines? I believe this is why the rules are being unified. If you can have enough strength to break free of entangle spell, you should have enough strength to break free of a stranglehold of comparable power.

Question about Unarmed Strike in the Origins UA:

It says an 'unarmed strike is a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within your reach.'

Nowhere in it does it say that you actually need to be unarmed.  Meaning you don't have to have a free hand.  Which sounds great, honestly, but am I understanding this correctly?

Quote from Stegodorkus >>

Question about Unarmed Strike in the Origins UA:

It says an 'unarmed strike is a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within your reach.'

Nowhere in it does it say that you actually need to be unarmed.  Meaning you don't have to have a free hand.  Which sounds great, honestly, but am I understanding this correctly?

You are correct that you do not need a free hand to make an unarmed strike, you can do that with your leg, your shoulder, your head, etc. But the Grapple part in particular does mention needing a free hand.

Awesome, thank you.  I knew it was a good change, but I didn't realize it was that good until thinking about a build around it.  And it's more realistic too.  Real warriors fought with every part of their body, even in heavy armor.  It's nice to see there's a solid option to shield bash/push/knock someone prone right from level 1.

There already is in 5e. You can do a shove or grapple as part of your attack action so that isnt a change itself, just now its implemented in a stupid way.

WotC now seem to think clerics should be harder to grapple than raging barbarians or brown bears

Oh, I agree that using AC instead of an opposed Athletics roll is bad. Somewhere way back in this thread I told my story of our bad experiences playtesting the grappling part in our games.  I told them in the survey.  Hopefully that aspect changes.  But the way the new rules work in combination with different classes and UA feats does open up more cool opportunities to build around. And one of the biggest improvements is that it doesn't take your whole attack action to do these, so you can apply them to every individual attack. 

Oh cool yes I do agree there are some ideas in One DnD which are good and give possible improvements in options, like light weapons, level 1 feats etc.

I just think their obsession with removing opposed checks for hiding, grappling etc is not helpful and makes combat lose realism for no benefit.

Yeah the static DCs for hiding, grappling AC, etc were the absolute worst parts of our test games.  I have no idea what they are trying to accomplish with this, but it ruined every situation it came up in.  I really hope the next UA offers us alternative concepts to try. 

Sorry if this was answered before but long post and I started reading it late.

1) Are unnamed strikes no longer considered weapon attacks (as opposed to an attack with a weapon)

2) Can unarmed attacks be considered finesse attacks so character can use STR (Grabs/Brear-Hugs) or DEX (Joint / Wrist locks)

3) Can escape be STR SAVE (Power through / Break hold) or DEX SAVE (Twist / Wiggle out of grapple)

As it stands, an unarmed Strike is:

- A melee attack with your body (not a weapon, though it's not explicitly said)

- It uses Strength for attack and damage rolls

- It can be used to grapple an opponent, among other things, causing them to have the Grappled condition.

- It uses Strength to set the DC for your opponent to escape a the grapple. 

- To escape a grapple, they can use either a Strength save or a Dexterity save

We are guessing that a Monk might be able to use Dexterity for attack and damage rolls.  Maybe even for the escape DC. But that's just speculation.  We won't know until that UA is released 

I really like the first part about starting the grapple; 

"whenever you make an unarmed strike you get three options: damage as normal for 1+Strength mod, impose the Grappled condition in your target as long as you have a free hand, or shove the target either 5 ft away or prone. "

And the slowed condition is also a nice touch to keep it balanced. 

"The Grappled condition imposes disadvantage on the target for all attacks except those against the grappler. The grappler can move the target, but while they are moving a grappled target they receive the Slowed condition, which means that every ft traveled costs an extra ft, all attacks against the Slowed creature have Advantage, and the Slowed creature has Disadvantage on Dexterity Saving Throws. "

Where I have a problem is the last part 

"A creature that is Grappled gets to make a Strength or Dexterity Saving Throw at the end of each of their turns to remove the condition vs an Escape DC of 8 + Proficiency + Strength mod of the grappler."

Mainly the issue I have here is that breaking free, cost nothing and is just a savings throw. I think the correct fix from here is to make it cost an action to attempt the savings throw, or choose to remain grappled and take a different action. I think u could even incorporate athletics and acrobatics here as well, and just have the escape be a contest roll (d20+athletics or acrobatics) the highest roll wins the contest. 

Quote from JevonK >>

I really like the first part about starting the grapple; 

"whenever you make an unarmed strike you get three options: damage as normal for 1+Strength mod, impose the Grappled condition in your target as long as you have a free hand, or shove the target either 5 ft away or prone. "

And the slowed condition is also a nice touch to keep it balanced. 

"The Grappled condition imposes disadvantage on the target for all attacks except those against the grappler. The grappler can move the target, but while they are moving a grappled target they receive the Slowed condition, which means that every ft traveled costs an extra ft, all attacks against the Slowed creature have Advantage, and the Slowed creature has Disadvantage on Dexterity Saving Throws. "

Where I have a problem is the last part 

"A creature that is Grappled gets to make a Strength or Dexterity Saving Throw at the end of each of their turns to remove the condition vs an Escape DC of 8 + Proficiency + Strength mod of the grappler."

Mainly the issue I have here is that breaking free, cost nothing and is just a savings throw. I think the correct fix from here is to make it cost an action to attempt the savings throw, or choose to remain grappled and take a different action. I think u could even incorporate athletics and acrobatics here as well, and just have the escape be a contest roll (d20+athletics or acrobatics) the highest roll wins the contest. 

 

 

 

They have updated the grapple rules. It no longer requires an attack roll it just is a save or be grappled attack, and you use an action to break free, there is no automatic escape at the end of your turn. 

I believe the grappled person could also use a unarmed strike to shove the target to break free in most situations, unless the opponent has reach. The grappled condition allows you to drag the grappled target when you move, move is specific rule and getting pushed 5' is not part of the move section. I like this as it means you can't use one attack to shut down a full action as opposed to shutting down one attack. I am assuming there will be some feats etc that improve your odds of either breaking free or establishing a grapple.

This is an old thread. Grapple has been changed several times since the previous post in Nov 2022.

In the most recent iteration, to end a grapple now states:

"Escape. While Grappled, you can use your action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on yourself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between you and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range."

Fresh Slate for the UA grapple changes, since this is an old thread.

UNARMED STRIKE

An Unarmed Strike is a Melee Attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you. Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect:

Damage. You make an attack roll against the target. Your bonus to hit equals your Strength modifier plus your Proficiency Bonus. On a hit, the target takes Bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.

Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappled condition. The DC for the saving throw and any escape attempts equals 8 + your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab it.

Shove. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push the target 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition. The DC for the saving throw equals 8 + your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This shove is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you.

The change from the OP's UA version is they are no longer auto grappled.

GRAPPLED [CONDITION]

While Grappled, you experience the following effects:

Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change.

Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on attack rolls against any target other than the grappler.

Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it Moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot, unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than the grappler.

Escape. While Grappled, you can use your action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on yourself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between you and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range,

Changes from the OP's UA version is the Slowed Condition has been removed from 1D&D. And the Saving Throw at the end of the grappled targets turn was changed to the ability check as an action.

So let's discuss. I like the changes. I think the auto grapple of the earliest version was too much. But the save, with target choosing STR or DEX, will make it harder to apply and you can't build for a grappling build other than raising your STR and level. So works more like a saving throw spell (maybe that's on purpose to keep the mechanic similar)

Although I liked the Slowed Condition, I'm glad it isn't part of the Movable trait of Grappled as it made the grappler an easier target. Might make sense, but makes using grappling less appealing.

Yeah, I do like this current iteration a lot better. I hope the slowed condition continues to exist though as it was a cool mechanic, just somewhere else, like as part of the slow spell among other things.

Quote from IamSposta >>

Yeah, I do like this current iteration a lot better. I hope the slowed condition continues to exist though as it was a cool mechanic, just somewhere else, like as part of the slow spell among other things.

 I like the slowed condition as well and hope they keep it. I had thought maybe it could be incorporated into monks Stunning Strike (start with slowed and scale up to stunned) bit that was before the Dazed condition was added which I think would be a better fit, if it worked kind of like the UA Paladin’s Abjure Foes ( dazed sticks no matter if they make or fail save).