Am I right in understanding that a grappled creature has at least two opportunities to escape from a grapple on its turn?
The grappled creature can use an attack to make an unarmed strike to shove the grappler away. If the grappled creature has multiple attacks, it can use each one to try to shove the grappler.
At the end of its turn the grappled creature is entitled to a STR or DEX saving throw to escape the grapple, whether or not it did anything in particular to try to escape.
Is this right?
By RAW, no. The wording of the rules as they have been written doesn't not designate moving the grappler as an escape condition for being grappled.
If the grappler moves the grappled target goes with them unless the grappler decides otherwise.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
This is incorrect, the rules of the grappled condition state that if any effect removes the grappler out of range of the target than the grapple condition ends.
Escape.While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength saving throw against the grapple’sescapeDC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Conditionon yourself on a success. The Conditionalso ends if the grappler is Incapacitatedorif somethingmovesyououtsidethegrapple’srangewithout using your Speed.
Nothing states that when the grappler is forcefully moved that they can take the grapple target with them, in fact the words of shove is that the target is "pushed", which is the same wording as the thunderwave wave; which was in 5E the example given of an effect that breaks grapple. Since Shove is not using a character's speed, it is applicable to this part of the grapple condition. Additionally I would point out, Tavern Brawler adds shove to an unarmed attack which does damage
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
RAW allows the grappler to move the grapple creature. It doesn't have any text that prohibits it from accomplishing this during forced movement.
The only way to break the grapple is if you move yourself (teleportation abilities for example) or making the Save at the end of your turn. It is right there in writing.
Movable allows the grappler to move the grappled target yes, but this is not the grappler's turn, they can take no action thus they can not move the grappled target when they are shoved because it is out of their turn. Again, nothing allows a grappler to move their target when they are forcefully moved.
Movable does not state anything about being limited to the Grapplers turn. Also, it doesn't require an action to move the target of the grapple, only movement. There are ways to move outside your own turn, and force movement is one of them.
Movable allows the grappler to move the grappled target yes, but this is not the grappler's turn, they can take no action thus they can not move the grappled target when they are shoved because it is out of their turn. Again, nothing allows a grappler to move their target when they are forcefully moved.
Nothing in the description of Movable states that is has to be on the grapplers turn or that they are unable to drag when they are forcefully moved. You are adding a restriction that is not there.
Should that restriction be there? Almost certainly it should. In fact, anything that results in the grappler becoming out of reach of its victim (such as the grappler casting Misty Step or Blink) should end the Grappled condition. But alas, that is not what the rule states. That is why the rule needs to be changed!
The Movable does not state anything about being limited to the Grapplers turn.
The grappler is performing an activity, you can not perform an action or activity outside of your own turn with the exception of reactions, so it does not need to say it is limited to the character's turn, it is implied. Just like you can't suddenly go "I lift the grapple target above my head" in the middle of another character's turn; you would reasonably need to ready an action and use a reaction on a specific trigger for this.
The Movable does not state anything about being limited to the Grapplers turn.
The grappler is performing an action, you can not perform actions outside of your own turn with the exception of reactions, so it does not need to say it is limited to the character's turn, it is implied. Just like you can't suddenly go "I lift the grapple target above my head" in the middle of another character's turn; you would reasonably need to ready an action and use a reaction on a specific trigger for this.
This incorrect. The grapple persists along with all of the conditions associated with it until the grapple is actively broken. As a matter of fact, if the target of the Grapple doesn't escape, they continue to be grappled without the grappler having to expend an attack to maintain it on subsequent turns.
You are correct that the Grappler can't just randomly lift the target of above their head, but that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about movement, which can be done outside of your own turn, such as Forced Movement and Maneuvering Attack.
I think it is important to note, that bad rules language is one of my biggest complaints with 5e and I think we should do everything possible to ensure that the next set of core books are better written if we can. The language used for Grappling is bad. I am certainly not a English major or professional writer, but even I can see the flaws in most of the rules as they are written.
The Movable does not state anything about being limited to the Grapplers turn.
The grappler is performing an action, you can not perform actions outside of your own turn with the exception of reactions, so it does not need to say it is limited to the character's turn, it is implied. Just like you can't suddenly go "I lift the grapple target above my head" in the middle of another character's turn; you would reasonably need to ready an action and use a reaction on a specific trigger for this.
This incorrect. The grapple persists along with all of the conditions associated with it until the grapple is actively broken. As a matter of fact, if the target of the Grapple doesn't escape, they continue to be grappled without the grappler having to expend an attack to maintain it on subsequent turns.
You are correct that the Grappler can't just randomly lift the target of above their head, but that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about movement, which can be done outside of your own turn, such as Forced Movement and Maneuvering Attack.
the condition states that the grappler can move or carry you, but this is again, implying action on the part of the grappler. 5E was very specific that a push effect like thunderwave breaks grapple, shove is also a push effect. I do not know why they didn't include the example of thunderwave but the way you're wording it would make it sound like if a grappler got thunderwaved, they get to drag the grapple target with them despite that explicitly having been NOT the case in 5E. given the wording else wise between 5E and oneD&D remain fairly consistent, my reading of it remains the same, a Push does not allow the grappler to drag since that is them doing something out of their turn.
The Movable does not state anything about being limited to the Grapplers turn.
The grappler is performing an action, you can not perform actions outside of your own turn with the exception of reactions, so it does not need to say it is limited to the character's turn, it is implied. Just like you can't suddenly go "I lift the grapple target above my head" in the middle of another character's turn; you would reasonably need to ready an action and use a reaction on a specific trigger for this.
This incorrect. The grapple persists along with all of the conditions associated with it until the grapple is actively broken. As a matter of fact, if the target of the Grapple doesn't escape, they continue to be grappled without the grappler having to expend an attack to maintain it on subsequent turns.
You are correct that the Grappler can't just randomly lift the target of above their head, but that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about movement, which can be done outside of your own turn, such as Forced Movement and Maneuvering Attack.
the condition states that the grappler can move or carry you, but this is again, implying action on the part of the grappler. 5E was very specific that a push effect like thunderwave breaks grapple, shove is also a push effect. I do not know why they didn't include the example of thunderwave but the way you're wording it would make it sound like if a grappler got thunderwaved, they get to drag the grapple target with them despite that explicitly having been NOT the case in 5E. given the wording else wise between 5E and oneD&D remain fairly consistent, my reading of it remains the same, a Push does not allow the grappler to drag since that is them doing something out of their turn.
And there in lies the problem. The rules written in the UA are meant to replace the current 5e rules for grapples. It isn't about the way I word it, it is about the way THEY worded the rule. It needs to be fixed and in order to do that, we have to acknowledge that how it is written is broken.
The Movable does not state anything about being limited to the Grapplers turn.
The grappler is performing an action, you can not perform actions outside of your own turn with the exception of reactions, so it does not need to say it is limited to the character's turn, it is implied. Just like you can't suddenly go "I lift the grapple target above my head" in the middle of another character's turn; you would reasonably need to ready an action and use a reaction on a specific trigger for this.
This incorrect. The grapple persists along with all of the conditions associated with it until the grapple is actively broken. As a matter of fact, if the target of the Grapple doesn't escape, they continue to be grappled without the grappler having to expend an attack to maintain it on subsequent turns.
You are correct that the Grappler can't just randomly lift the target of above their head, but that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about movement, which can be done outside of your own turn, such as Forced Movement and Maneuvering Attack.
the condition states that the grappler can move or carry you, but this is again, implying action on the part of the grappler. 5E was very specific that a push effect like thunderwave breaks grapple, shove is also a push effect. I do not know why they didn't include the example of thunderwave but the way you're wording it would make it sound like if a grappler got thunderwaved, they get to drag the grapple target with them despite that explicitly having been NOT the case in 5E. given the wording else wise between 5E and oneD&D remain fairly consistent, my reading of it remains the same, a Push does not allow the grappler to drag since that is them doing something out of their turn.
And there in lies the problem. The rules written in the UA are meant to replace the current 5e rules for grapples. It isn't about the way I word it, it is about the way THEY worded the rule. It needs to be fixed and in order to do that, we have to acknowledge that how it is written is broken.
Ok, I think I see what you're talking about now...
In 5E moveable was part of the grapple action.
in OneD&D moveable is part of the grappled condition, so it got moved to very much the wrong place.
I very much apologize and that is a terrible change they made.
The Movable does not state anything about being limited to the Grapplers turn.
The grappler is performing an action, you can not perform actions outside of your own turn with the exception of reactions, so it does not need to say it is limited to the character's turn, it is implied. Just like you can't suddenly go "I lift the grapple target above my head" in the middle of another character's turn; you would reasonably need to ready an action and use a reaction on a specific trigger for this.
This incorrect. The grapple persists along with all of the conditions associated with it until the grapple is actively broken. As a matter of fact, if the target of the Grapple doesn't escape, they continue to be grappled without the grappler having to expend an attack to maintain it on subsequent turns.
You are correct that the Grappler can't just randomly lift the target of above their head, but that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about movement, which can be done outside of your own turn, such as Forced Movement and Maneuvering Attack.
the condition states that the grappler can move or carry you, but this is again, implying action on the part of the grappler. 5E was very specific that a push effect like thunderwave breaks grapple, shove is also a push effect. I do not know why they didn't include the example of thunderwave but the way you're wording it would make it sound like if a grappler got thunderwaved, they get to drag the grapple target with them despite that explicitly having been NOT the case in 5E. given the wording else wise between 5E and oneD&D remain fairly consistent, my reading of it remains the same, a Push does not allow the grappler to drag since that is them doing something out of their turn.
And there in lies the problem. The rules written in the UA are meant to replace the current 5e rules for grapples. It isn't about the way I word it, it is about the way THEY worded the rule. It needs to be fixed and in order to do that, we have to acknowledge that how it is written is broken.
Ok, I think I see what you're talking about now...
In 5E moveable was part of the grapple action.
in OneD&D moveable is part of the grappled condition, so it got moved to very much the wrong place.
I very much apologize and that is a terrible change they made.
No apology required or desired. I just want the rules in the upcoming books to be clear as possible and I hope we can work out all the bugs.
The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
So, basically, a very close and literal reading of this rule means that only moving the grappled creature will break the grapple. If the grappler is forcibly moved, say by a Thunderwave spell, the grappler can maintain the grapple and bring the grappled creature along. The grappled creatures allies must move the grappled creature instead, possibly by grappling their ally and dragging him themselves.
The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
So, basically, a very close and literal reading of this rule means that only moving the grappled creature will break the grapple. If the grappler is forcibly moved, say by a Thunderwave spell, the grappler can maintain the grapple and bring the grappled creature along. The grappled creatures allies must move the grappled creature instead, possibly by grappling their ally and dragging him themselves.
Yes, it is that part of the rules coupled with the Moveable portion of the Grappled condition that is the issue. That is why it important to give feedback for the UA that can fix issues like this.
The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed.
So, basically, a very close and literal reading of this rule means that only moving the grappled creature will break the grapple. If the grappler is forcibly moved, say by a Thunderwave spell, the grappler can maintain the grapple and bring the grappled creature along. The grappled creatures allies must move the grappled creature instead, possibly by grappling their ally and dragging him themselves.
Yes. That is why it important to give feedback for the UA that can fix issues like this.
So basically you must remove the grappled condition before being able to shove the grappler?
Right now, if you shove your grappler using the UA rules and choose the push effect rather than the prone effect, your DM has to decide what happens. All of these rulings fail to violate the RAW:
The push fails because you must push the target 5' away and because you would move with the creature, it won't end the movement away, and so nothing happens. The grapple is maintained.
The push works. The grappler is pushed 5' away but drags the pusher along with, so the pusher is also pushed 5' in the same direction. The grapple is maintained.
Under this ruling, deeply bizarre physics happen when the grappled pusher lacks a fly speed but this is happening in the air (effectively, you can grant yourself a fly speed under this ruling), so your DM may be loathe to choose this.
The push works. The grappler is pushed 5' away and the pusher stays where they are. Independently of the grappler's reach/effect range, the grapple is maintained, because nothing moved you out of range and moving the grappling creature out of range does not break grapples.
Under this ruling, if both participants have grappled each other prior to the push, the push can break one of the grapples but not the other, which may strike your DM as inconsistent and counter-intuitive, making this less likely.
Note that the grappler can drag, so if your DM rules that a pushed grappler can still drag, this simply means that the pushed grappler can choose between 3 [not dragging] or (1 or 2) [dragging], but this doesn't introduce a new mechanic.
I am guessing most DMs will pick item 1 for when the pusher is grappled by the grappler and item 2 for when the pusher is not, effectively modifying grappled so that dragging is mandatory when resolving forced movement.
Thanks for the info...so basically other than taking an action to do an escape check (STR or DEX) your only option is something that makes you immune to the grapple condition (freedom of movement, ring of free action), escapes the area of being grappled (misty step, dimension door, etherealness), or another party member possibly taking an action to break the grapple (opposed checks)?
Thanks for the info...so basically other than taking an action to do an escape check (STR or DEX)
There isn't an escape check in One DnD, as far as we know.
yes there is
Escape.While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength saving throw against the grapple’sescapeDC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Conditionon yourself on a success.
Thanks for the info...so basically other than taking an action to do an escape check (STR or DEX)
There isn't an escape check in One DnD, as far as we know.
yes there is
Escape.While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength saving throw against the grapple’sescapeDC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Conditionon yourself on a success.
Thanks for the info...so basically other than taking an action to do an escape check (STR or DEX)
There isn't an escape check in One DnD, as far as we know.
yes there is
Escape.While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength saving throw against the grapple’sescapeDC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Conditionon yourself on a success.
Sorry, I meant there isn't an escape action.
I sincerely hope that there will be an escape action still available. No one really knows, but I am guessing that unless something changes, there will not be such an option.
Thanks for the info...so basically other than taking an action to do an escape check (STR or DEX)
There isn't an escape check in One DnD, as far as we know.
yes there is
Escape.While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength saving throw against the grapple’sescapeDC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Conditionon yourself on a success.
Sorry, I meant there isn't an escape action.
I sincerely hope that there will be an escape action still available. No one really knows, but I am guessing that unless something changes, there will not be such an option.
Well, maybe there will be. I mean we have't seen new rules for specific skills for athletics or acrobatics. Maybe they will still work the same way they do now.
Movable allows the grappler to move the grappled target yes, but this is not the grappler's turn, they can take no action thus they can not move the grappled target when they are shoved because it is out of their turn. Again, nothing allows a grappler to move their target when they are forcefully moved.
Nothing in the description of Movable states that is has to be on the grapplers turn or that they are unable to drag when they are forcefully moved. You are adding a restriction that is not there.
Should that restriction be there? Almost certainly it should. In fact, anything that results in the grappler becoming out of reach of its victim (such as the grappler casting Misty Step or Blink) should end the Grappled condition. But alas, that is not what the rule states. That is why the rule needs to be changed!
I'd say saying they can drag outside of their action is just as much adding an ability that is not there as adding a restriction that is there. It definitely needs clarification on what they were going for here.
Movable allows the grappler to move the grappled target yes, but this is not the grappler's turn, they can take no action thus they can not move the grappled target when they are shoved because it is out of their turn. Again, nothing allows a grappler to move their target when they are forcefully moved.
Nothing in the description of Movable states that is has to be on the grapplers turn or that they are unable to drag when they are forcefully moved. You are adding a restriction that is not there.
Should that restriction be there? Almost certainly it should. In fact, anything that results in the grappler becoming out of reach of its victim (such as the grappler casting Misty Step or Blink) should end the Grappled condition. But alas, that is not what the rule states. That is why the rule needs to be changed!
I'd say saying they can drag outside of their action is just as much adding an ability that is not there as adding a restriction that is there. It definitely needs clarification on what they were going for here.
That is because there is no action required to drag a grappled target, only movement. Once grappled, they gain the Grappled Condition and all the entails until the Condition is broken, regardless of who's turn it is. If the grappler gains movement outside of their normal turn, then THEY get to decide if the grappled target is dragged along with them. There are no stipulations in the rules that create exceptions for forced movement, at least not as they are written in the UA. Should there be, yes, but finding these issues is part of UA testing.
My hope is that there is a lot less traffic in the Rules & Game Mechanics Forum talking about poorly worded rules for the next "edition".
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She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
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Movable does not state anything about being limited to the Grapplers turn. Also, it doesn't require an action to move the target of the grapple, only movement. There are ways to move outside your own turn, and force movement is one of them.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Nothing in the description of Movable states that is has to be on the grapplers turn or that they are unable to drag when they are forcefully moved. You are adding a restriction that is not there.
Should that restriction be there? Almost certainly it should. In fact, anything that results in the grappler becoming out of reach of its victim (such as the grappler casting Misty Step or Blink) should end the Grappled condition. But alas, that is not what the rule states. That is why the rule needs to be changed!
The grappler is performing an activity, you can not perform an action or activity outside of your own turn with the exception of reactions, so it does not need to say it is limited to the character's turn, it is implied. Just like you can't suddenly go "I lift the grapple target above my head" in the middle of another character's turn; you would reasonably need to ready an action and use a reaction on a specific trigger for this.
This incorrect. The grapple persists along with all of the conditions associated with it until the grapple is actively broken. As a matter of fact, if the target of the Grapple doesn't escape, they continue to be grappled without the grappler having to expend an attack to maintain it on subsequent turns.
You are correct that the Grappler can't just randomly lift the target of above their head, but that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about movement, which can be done outside of your own turn, such as Forced Movement and Maneuvering Attack.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I think it is important to note, that bad rules language is one of my biggest complaints with 5e and I think we should do everything possible to ensure that the next set of core books are better written if we can. The language used for Grappling is bad. I am certainly not a English major or professional writer, but even I can see the flaws in most of the rules as they are written.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
the condition states that the grappler can move or carry you, but this is again, implying action on the part of the grappler. 5E was very specific that a push effect like thunderwave breaks grapple, shove is also a push effect. I do not know why they didn't include the example of thunderwave but the way you're wording it would make it sound like if a grappler got thunderwaved, they get to drag the grapple target with them despite that explicitly having been NOT the case in 5E. given the wording else wise between 5E and oneD&D remain fairly consistent, my reading of it remains the same, a Push does not allow the grappler to drag since that is them doing something out of their turn.
And there in lies the problem. The rules written in the UA are meant to replace the current 5e rules for grapples. It isn't about the way I word it, it is about the way THEY worded the rule. It needs to be fixed and in order to do that, we have to acknowledge that how it is written is broken.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Ok, I think I see what you're talking about now...
In 5E moveable was part of the grapple action.
in OneD&D moveable is part of the grappled condition, so it got moved to very much the wrong place.
I very much apologize and that is a terrible change they made.
No apology required or desired. I just want the rules in the upcoming books to be clear as possible and I hope we can work out all the bugs.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
So, basically, a very close and literal reading of this rule means that only moving the grappled creature will break the grapple. If the grappler is forcibly moved, say by a Thunderwave spell, the grappler can maintain the grapple and bring the grappled creature along. The grappled creatures allies must move the grappled creature instead, possibly by grappling their ally and dragging him themselves.
Yes, it is that part of the rules coupled with the Moveable portion of the Grappled condition that is the issue. That is why it important to give feedback for the UA that can fix issues like this.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
OK. Got it. Thanks for your explanation.
Thanks for the info...so basically other than taking an action to do an escape check (STR or DEX) your only option is something that makes you immune to the grapple condition (freedom of movement, ring of free action), escapes the area of being grappled (misty step, dimension door, etherealness), or another party member possibly taking an action to break the grapple (opposed checks)?
There isn't an escape check in One DnD, as far as we know.
yes there is
Sorry, I meant there isn't an escape action.
I sincerely hope that there will be an escape action still available. No one really knows, but I am guessing that unless something changes, there will not be such an option.
Well, maybe there will be. I mean we have't seen new rules for specific skills for athletics or acrobatics. Maybe they will still work the same way they do now.
I'd say saying they can drag outside of their action is just as much adding an ability that is not there as adding a restriction that is there. It definitely needs clarification on what they were going for here.
That is because there is no action required to drag a grappled target, only movement. Once grappled, they gain the Grappled Condition and all the entails until the Condition is broken, regardless of who's turn it is. If the grappler gains movement outside of their normal turn, then THEY get to decide if the grappled target is dragged along with them. There are no stipulations in the rules that create exceptions for forced movement, at least not as they are written in the UA. Should there be, yes, but finding these issues is part of UA testing.
My hope is that there is a lot less traffic in the Rules & Game Mechanics Forum talking about poorly worded rules for the next "edition".
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master