Because combat abilities don't trigger off of skills, they're either stat-based save or attacks. The clear motivation for the change is "this whole contest of athletics thing is a special snowflake mechanic and we want to get rid of it".
Skills are stat based, and it would still use a saving throw, I’m only suggesting a slightly alternative method for calculating the Save DC, nothing more. But if that’s still too much of a snowflake for ya, then I guess my opinion is wrong…? 🤔
I'd rather have seen skills become more important, not less - and there are other changes that have deeply sketchy implications for immersive combats like a level 1 Strength 8 monk stopping a warhorse dead in its tracks.
Applying real life expectations to a game where things as massive as dragons can fly with ease and people can literally warp reality with their minds.
I would like to point out that it appears you cannot merely shove your enemy away from you anymore to break its grapple.
The new rules for the Grappled condition state: "The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed."
Presumably it means that the grappler is just going to drag you along with it when it is forced away from you. So Shoving won't work and neither will Thunderwave???
I would like to point out that it appears you cannot merely shove your enemy away from you anymore to break its grapple.
The new rules for the Grappled condition state: "The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed."
Presumably it means that the grappler is just going to drag you along with it when it is forced away from you. So Shoving won't work and neither will Thunderwave???
Assuming range and reach are interchangeable then shoving works. The movement part of the grapple condition isn't worded the best but being shoved isn't movement in the meta-rule sense so it doesn't apply. Basically if you are moving on the map but aren't using your speed then it's not movement just like thorn whip doesn't proc booming blade.
The "you" in what what I quoted ("if something moves you outside the grapple’s range") is referring to you, the person who is grappled, the one who has the Grappled condition.
This means that moving you (the creature with the Grappled condition) away from the creature doing the grappling will end the Grappled condition.
But moving the creature doing the grappling will not break the grapple. If you are grappled, using Thunderwave or shoving your grappler away from you will not end your Grappled condition. You will remain Grappled and just get dragged along with them.
It is a pretty weak reading to interpret "if something moves you outside the grapple’s range" to mean something moves you outside the grapple’s range?
It is reasonable to assume that RAI is that forcibly moving a creature who is grappling another creature allows the grappler to drag along anything it is currently grappling. In fact, it is part of the Grappled condition: "Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler."
I imagine an ogre grappling me, and then a dragon swoops in and grapples the ogre, pulling both me and the ogre into the sky.
You wouldn't apply the slowed portion of it to seone grappling while in freefall would you? Probably not.
The Slowed condition would be applied but has no effect on forced movement, so that is a moot point.
In the rules , it clearly does not say that "for all practicality shoving somebody away from you is moving yourself out of range"... The rules clearly and specifically state that grapple is broken by the grappled creature being moved, but makes no mention of what happens if the grappler is force moved away from what is grappling. I would love for it to say that force moving the grappler out of reach also breaks the grapple, its just not how it is currently written.
This is Unearthed Arcana playtest material we are commenting on. Instead of trying to make up reasons I'm wrong, you should be advocating for the rules to be adjusted to state that force moving the grappler out of range should also break the grapple.
Am I right in understanding that a grappled creature has at least two opportunities to escape from a grapple on its turn?
The grappled creature can use an attack to make an unarmed strike to shove the grappler away. If the grappled creature has multiple attacks, it can use each one to try to shove the grappler.
At the end of its turn the grappled creature is entitled to a STR or DEX saving throw to escape the grapple, whether or not it did anything in particular to try to escape.
Am I right in understanding that a grappled creature has at least two opportunities to escape from a grapple on its turn?
The grappled creature can use an attack to make an unarmed strike to shove the grappler away. If the grappled creature has multiple attacks, it can use each one to try to shove the grappler.
At the end of its turn the grappled creature is entitled to a STR or DEX saving throw to escape the grapple, whether or not it did anything in particular to try to escape.
Is this right?
By RAW, no. The wording of the rules as they have been written doesn't not designate moving the grappler as an escape condition for being grappled.
If the grappler moves the grappled target goes with them unless the grappler decides otherwise.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
So basically you must remove the grappled condition before being able to shove the grappler?
Right now, if you shove your grappler using the UA rules and choose the push effect rather than the prone effect, your DM has to decide what happens. All of these rulings fail to violate the RAW:
The push fails because you must push the target 5' away and because you would move with the creature, it won't end the movement away, and so nothing happens. The grapple is maintained.
The push works. The grappler is pushed 5' away but drags the pusher along with, so the pusher is also pushed 5' in the same direction. The grapple is maintained.
Under this ruling, deeply bizarre physics happen when the grappled pusher lacks a fly speed but this is happening in the air (effectively, you can grant yourself a fly speed under this ruling), so your DM may be loathe to choose this.
The push works. The grappler is pushed 5' away and the pusher stays where they are. Independently of the grappler's reach/effect range, the grapple is maintained, because nothing moved you out of range and moving the grappling creature out of range does not break grapples.
Under this ruling, if both participants have grappled each other prior to the push, the push can break one of the grapples but not the other, which may strike your DM as inconsistent and counter-intuitive, making this less likely.
Note that the grappler can drag, so if your DM rules that a pushed grappler can still drag, this simply means that the pushed grappler can choose between 3 [not dragging] or (1 or 2) [dragging], but this doesn't introduce a new mechanic.
I am guessing most DMs will pick item 1 for when the pusher is grappled by the grappler and item 2 for when the pusher is not, effectively modifying grappled so that dragging is mandatory when resolving forced movement.
Am I right in understanding that a grappled creature has at least two opportunities to escape from a grapple on its turn?
The grappled creature can use an attack to make an unarmed strike to shove the grappler away. If the grappled creature has multiple attacks, it can use each one to try to shove the grappler.
At the end of its turn the grappled creature is entitled to a STR or DEX saving throw to escape the grapple, whether or not it did anything in particular to try to escape.
Is this right?
By RAW, no. The wording of the rules as they have been written doesn't not designate moving the grappler as an escape condition for being grappled.
If the grappler moves the grappled target goes with them unless the grappler decides otherwise.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
This is incorrect, the rules of the grappled condition state that if any effect removes the grappler out of range of the target than the grapple condition ends.
Escape.While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength saving throw against the grapple’sescapeDC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Conditionon yourself on a success. The Conditionalso ends if the grappler is Incapacitatedorif somethingmovesyououtsidethegrapple’srangewithout using your Speed.
Nothing states that when the grappler is forcefully moved that they can take the grapple target with them, in fact the words of shove is that the target is "pushed", which is the same wording as the thunderwave wave; which was in 5E the example given of an effect that breaks grapple. Since Shove is not using a character's speed, it is applicable to this part of the grapple condition. Additionally I would point out, Tavern Brawler adds shove to an unarmed attack which does damage
Am I right in understanding that a grappled creature has at least two opportunities to escape from a grapple on its turn?
The grappled creature can use an attack to make an unarmed strike to shove the grappler away. If the grappled creature has multiple attacks, it can use each one to try to shove the grappler.
At the end of its turn the grappled creature is entitled to a STR or DEX saving throw to escape the grapple, whether or not it did anything in particular to try to escape.
Is this right?
By RAW, no. The wording of the rules as they have been written doesn't not designate moving the grappler as an escape condition for being grappled.
If the grappler moves the grappled target goes with them unless the grappler decides otherwise.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
This is incorrect, the rules of the grappled condition state that if any effect removes the grappler out of range of the target than the grapple condition ends.
Escape.While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength saving throw against the grapple’sescapeDC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Conditionon yourself on a success. The Conditionalso ends if the grappler is Incapacitatedorif somethingmovesyououtsidethegrapple’srangewithout using your Speed.
Nothing states that when the grappler is forcefully moved that they can take the grapple target with them, in fact the words of shove is that the target is "pushed", which is the same wording as the thunderwave wave; which was in 5E the example given of an effect that breaks grapple. Since Shove is not using a character's speed, it is applicable to this part of the grapple condition. Additionally I would point out, Tavern Brawler adds shove to an unarmed attack which does damage
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
RAW allows the grappler to move the grapple creature. It doesn't have any text that prohibits it from accomplishing this during forced movement.
The only way to break the grapple is if you move yourself, Incapacitate the Grappler, or making the Save at the end of your turn. It is right there in writing.
Am I right in understanding that a grappled creature has at least two opportunities to escape from a grapple on its turn?
The grappled creature can use an attack to make an unarmed strike to shove the grappler away. If the grappled creature has multiple attacks, it can use each one to try to shove the grappler.
At the end of its turn the grappled creature is entitled to a STR or DEX saving throw to escape the grapple, whether or not it did anything in particular to try to escape.
Is this right?
By RAW, no. The wording of the rules as they have been written doesn't not designate moving the grappler as an escape condition for being grappled.
If the grappler moves the grappled target goes with them unless the grappler decides otherwise.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
This is incorrect, the rules of the grappled condition state that if any effect removes the grappler out of range of the target than the grapple condition ends.
Escape.While Grappled, you can make a Dexterity or Strength saving throw against the grapple’sescapeDC at the end of each of your turns, ending the Conditionon yourself on a success. The Conditionalso ends if the grappler is Incapacitatedorif somethingmovesyououtsidethegrapple’srangewithout using your Speed.
Nothing states that when the grappler is forcefully moved that they can take the grapple target with them, in fact the words of shove is that the target is "pushed", which is the same wording as the thunderwave wave; which was in 5E the example given of an effect that breaks grapple. Since Shove is not using a character's speed, it is applicable to this part of the grapple condition. Additionally I would point out, Tavern Brawler adds shove to an unarmed attack which does damage
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
RAW allows the grappler to move the grapple creature. It doesn't have any text that prohibits it from accomplishing this during forced movement.
The only way to break the grapple is if you move yourself (teleportation abilities for example) or making the Save at the end of your turn. It is right there in writing.
Movable allows the grappler to move the grappled target yes, but this is not the grappler's turn, they can take no action thus they can not move the grappled target when they are shoved because it is out of their turn. Again, nothing allows a grappler to move their target when they are forcefully moved.
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Skills are stat based, and it would still use a saving throw, I’m only suggesting a slightly alternative method for calculating the Save DC, nothing more. But if that’s still too much of a snowflake for ya, then I guess my opinion is wrong…? 🤔
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Applying real life expectations to a game where things as massive as dragons can fly with ease and people can literally warp reality with their minds.
It's all nonsense, enjoy it :)
I would like to point out that it appears you cannot merely shove your enemy away from you anymore to break its grapple.
The new rules for the Grappled condition state: "The Condition also ends if the grappler is Incapacitated or if something moves you outside the grapple’s range without using your Speed."
Presumably it means that the grappler is just going to drag you along with it when it is forced away from you. So Shoving won't work and neither will Thunderwave???
The "you" in what what I quoted ("if something moves you outside the grapple’s range") is referring to you, the person who is grappled, the one who has the Grappled condition.
This means that moving you (the creature with the Grappled condition) away from the creature doing the grappling will end the Grappled condition.
But moving the creature doing the grappling will not break the grapple. If you are grappled, using Thunderwave or shoving your grappler away from you will not end your Grappled condition. You will remain Grappled and just get dragged along with them.
It is a pretty weak reading to interpret "if something moves you outside the grapple’s range" to mean something moves you outside the grapple’s range?
It is reasonable to assume that RAI is that forcibly moving a creature who is grappling another creature allows the grappler to drag along anything it is currently grappling. In fact, it is part of the Grappled condition: "Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or more Sizes smaller than the grappler."
I imagine an ogre grappling me, and then a dragon swoops in and grapples the ogre, pulling both me and the ogre into the sky.
The Slowed condition would be applied but has no effect on forced movement, so that is a moot point.
In the rules , it clearly does not say that "for all practicality shoving somebody away from you is moving yourself out of range"... The rules clearly and specifically state that grapple is broken by the grappled creature being moved, but makes no mention of what happens if the grappler is force moved away from what is grappling. I would love for it to say that force moving the grappler out of reach also breaks the grapple, its just not how it is currently written.
This is Unearthed Arcana playtest material we are commenting on. Instead of trying to make up reasons I'm wrong, you should be advocating for the rules to be adjusted to state that force moving the grappler out of range should also break the grapple.
Am I right in understanding that a grappled creature has at least two opportunities to escape from a grapple on its turn?
Is this right?
By RAW, no. The wording of the rules as they have been written doesn't not designate moving the grappler as an escape condition for being grappled.
If the grappler moves the grappled target goes with them unless the grappler decides otherwise.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
So basically you must remove the grappled condition before being able to shove the grappler?
Right now, if you shove your grappler using the UA rules and choose the push effect rather than the prone effect, your DM has to decide what happens. All of these rulings fail to violate the RAW:
I am guessing most DMs will pick item 1 for when the pusher is grappled by the grappler and item 2 for when the pusher is not, effectively modifying grappled so that dragging is mandatory when resolving forced movement.
You can push the grappler, but that won't break the grappled effect.
Edit: Quindraco's Option 1 and 2 fit RAW. Either way, Shove is not a valid way to break the Grappled condition.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
What do we think of the tactic of Shoving yourself out of the grapple? I mean, it would be at Disadvantage, so it's not great.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You can never shove yourself, because you can't push yourself away from yourself.
This is incorrect, the rules of the grappled condition state that if any effect removes the grappler out of range of the target than the grapple condition ends.
Nothing states that when the grappler is forcefully moved that they can take the grapple target with them, in fact the words of shove is that the target is "pushed", which is the same wording as the thunderwave wave; which was in 5E the example given of an effect that breaks grapple. Since Shove is not using a character's speed, it is applicable to this part of the grapple condition. Additionally I would point out, Tavern Brawler adds shove to an unarmed attack which does damage
RAW allows the grappler to move the grapple creature. It doesn't have any text that prohibits it from accomplishing this during forced movement.
The only way to break the grapple is if you move yourself, Incapacitate the Grappler, or making the Save at the end of your turn. It is right there in writing.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Movable allows the grappler to move the grappled target yes, but this is not the grappler's turn, they can take no action thus they can not move the grappled target when they are shoved because it is out of their turn. Again, nothing allows a grappler to move their target when they are forcefully moved.