I dig the ease of use of these new rules, but I'm concerned it may weaken and already niche option.
How do you mean?
Before it took an action to break a grapple, now its a save, you can't really build for it at least yet(future feats/class abilities may change that)other than being strong making the TN to break free comparatively lower. We wont know until we have a decent amount of use of this in play, and I'm not sure 5e materials will help much with that as we don't know how enemy design will change in the next edition.
Unless the creature grappling has reach it should not be a problem.
You don't have disadvantage on attack rolls against the one grappling you, so to get free and move without getting locked into a permanent state of grapple.
1. melee attack the person grappling you.
2. Choose Shove.
3. they have been moved away from grappling you, breaking the grapple.
4. move and do the rest of your actions.
Reach with an unarmed strike. So Bugbear and Astral Self monk.
Astral self monks are actually a pretty good Grapple option If I'm reading these rules together and applying some common sense.
You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
So common sense says that Wisdom is now your Grapple stat for the DC when using your arms. I don't see that as a huge logic leap, in fact you'd have to work pretty hard to explain why strength is the stat to set the DC if using the arms. Maybe if a DM wanted to rule that the Astral Arms don't have hands or the capability of gripping/wrapping, just fists or something equally un-fun.
You can use the spectral arms to make unarmed strikes.
Which now is the prerequisite for Grapple/Shove
When you make an unarmed strike with the arms on your turn, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal.
Neither Grapple nor Unarmed Strikes have a distance limit built in for the Grappler.
The unarmed strikes you make with the arms can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls, and their damage type is force.
The Force damage type adds another little oddity here. The Shove-breaks-grapple might not work because the arms are just force constructs, but dispel magic might?
I think the biggest issue I have with the proposed grapple rules is that it is too easy to lock a target down pretty much permanently.
Step One: Grappler hits the target's AC and Grapple succeeds.
Step Two: Grappled target escapes at the end of their turn, but can't move.
Step Three: Grappler hits the target's AC and Grapple succeeds.
Repeat indefinitely.
The Grappler requires no skill at grappling at all, just enough HP to take the hits till the fight is over. The escape DC itself doesn't matter at all if the target has no way to move away. And even if they could move away, the Grappler just makes an AoO and locks them down again. It feels cheap.
"But Golaryn, it takes an attack to Grapple a target."
Yes it does, but 1 of the Fighter's attacks to keep a target from moving and giving it disadvantage seems like a pretty low price to pay for the benefits that it provides.
I am not completely against the changes to Grappling, I just think maybe it needs some work.
I think the biggest issue I have with the proposed grapple rules is that it is too easy to lock a target down pretty much permanently.
Step One: Grappler hits the target's AC and Grapple succeeds.
Step Two: Grappled target escapes at the end of their turn, but can't move.
Step Three: Grappler hits the target's AC and Grapple succeeds.
Repeat indefinitely.
The Grappler requires no skill at grappling at all, just enough HP to take the hits till the fight is over. The escape DC itself doesn't matter at all if the target has no way to move away. And even if they could move away, the Grappler just makes an AoO and locks them down again. It feels cheap.
"But Golaryn, it takes an attack to Grapple a target."
Yes it does, but 1 of the Fighter's attacks to keep a target from moving and giving it disadvantage seems like a pretty low price to pay for the benefits that it provides.
I am not completely against the changes to Grappling, I just think maybe it needs some work.
Agreed. While I am happy that grappling got some changes, this seems highly exploitable. One of my friends wanted to be a grappler and had to heavily invest his PC’s growth into grappling to make it viable (Warforged Rune Knight Fighter). I did not like that he had to narrow his focus so much to make that work. This is kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum. There probably is a middle ground somewhere.
I think the biggest issue I have with the proposed grapple rules is that it is too easy to lock a target down pretty much permanently.
Step One: Grappler hits the target's AC and Grapple succeeds.
Step Two: Grappled target escapes at the end of their turn, but can't move.
Step Three: Grappler hits the target's AC and Grapple succeeds.
Repeat indefinitely.
The Grappler requires no skill at grappling at all, just enough HP to take the hits till the fight is over. The escape DC itself doesn't matter at all if the target has no way to move away. And even if they could move away, the Grappler just makes an AoO and locks them down again. It feels cheap.
"But Golaryn, it takes an attack to Grapple a target."
Yes it does, but 1 of the Fighter's attacks to keep a target from moving and giving it disadvantage seems like a pretty low price to pay for the benefits that it provides.
I am not completely against the changes to Grappling, I just think maybe it needs some work.
Agreed. While I am happy that grappling got some changes, this seems highly exploitable. One of my friends wanted to be a grappler and had to heavily invest his PC’s growth into grappling to make it viable (Warforged Rune Knight Fighter). I did not like that he had to narrow his focus so much to make that work. This is kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum. There probably is a middle ground somewhere.
One thing Crawford & Co suck at is “middle ground.” They bounce from one extreme to another like a bipolar ping pong ball.
I think the biggest issue I have with the proposed grapple rules is that it is too easy to lock a target down pretty much permanently.
Step One: Grappler hits the target's AC and Grapple succeeds.
Step Two: Grappled target escapes at the end of their turn, but can't move.
Step Three: Grappler hits the target's AC and Grapple succeeds.
Repeat indefinitely.
The Grappler requires no skill at grappling at all, just enough HP to take the hits till the fight is over. The escape DC itself doesn't matter at all if the target has no way to move away. And even if they could move away, the Grappler just makes an AoO and locks them down again. It feels cheap.
"But Golaryn, it takes an attack to Grapple a target."
Yes it does, but 1 of the Fighter's attacks to keep a target from moving and giving it disadvantage seems like a pretty low price to pay for the benefits that it provides.
I am not completely against the changes to Grappling, I just think maybe it needs some work.
Yes, but as was stated earlier. You have your Action and Bonus Action to deal with it before the end of the turn triggers the auto-save attempt. Not to mention allies that may be able to assist someone out of a less than ideal situation with a Grappler. Yes, if all you do is wait for the end of the turn and roll the prescribed save, then you're going to not work out so well as you are right back where you started. However, using an action to shove them 5ft away or a spell to trigger forced movement should end the Grapple condition and undo the thing that is keeping your movement at 0. Of course you may still be a bad place, possibly prone and only 5 ft from a Grappler who will take their turn before you. But maybe you have a bonus action to dash with, or a reaction shield spell to keep the unarmed strike from hitting you and grappling again. Or maybe the grappler isn't going to be able to try again as Beefcake son of Cakebeef the barbarian is closing the distance with a greataxe, rage, and an overwhelming desire for Grappler to stop bad-hugging their friend without consent. I mean, it's D&D.
Interestingly the tavern brawler feat makes you adept at escaping a grapple, succeed on a hit and shove them away breaking the grapple. Which seems appropriate because in a brawl someone is likely to grab you and you would be used to getting them away from you (or an ally) which sounds cool to me.
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If you are grappled, on your turn couldn’t you make an unarmed strike against the grappler and simply shove them away from you to break the grapple, or am I missing something?
yeah you're right, you could, but the TB still gets their damage... small boost i suppose.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
If you are grappled, on your turn couldn’t you make an unarmed strike against the grappler and simply shove them away from you to break the grapple, or am I missing something?
Unless your opponent has reach, that should work. In practice breaking free from grapples was rarely worthwhile in 5e and that doesn't change, the big difference in One D&D is that it winds up being fairly easy to grapple creatures that are much stronger than you (in 6e, a level 5 with 10 strength who isn't proficient in athletics has a 26% chance to grapple a cave bear; in One D&D he has a 60% chance).
If you are grappled, on your turn couldn’t you make an unarmed strike against the grappler and simply shove them away from you to break the grapple, or am I missing something?
Unless your opponent has reach, that should work. In practice breaking free from grapples was rarely worthwhile in 5e and that doesn't change, the big difference in One D&D is that it winds up being fairly easy to grapple creatures that are much stronger than you (in 6e, a level 5 with 10 strength who isn't proficient in athletics has a 26% chance to grapple a cave bear; in One D&D he has a 60% chance).
And that doesn’t seem a li’l bit like 🐴💩 to anyone else but me?
If you are grappled, on your turn couldn’t you make an unarmed strike against the grappler and simply shove them away from you to break the grapple, or am I missing something?
Unless your opponent has reach, that should work. In practice breaking free from grapples was rarely worthwhile in 5e and that doesn't change, the big difference in One D&D is that it winds up being fairly easy to grapple creatures that are much stronger than you (in 6e, a level 5 with 10 strength who isn't proficient in athletics has a 26% chance to grapple a cave bear; in One D&D he has a 60% chance).
And that doesn’t seem a li’l bit like 🐴💩 to anyone else but me?
If they want to have grapple use standard mechanics, there's a much better option than an attack roll. That would be
Grapple: the character targets one creature within reach, which must make a Strength save against the character's Strength save DC or be grappled.
If you are grappled, on your turn couldn’t you make an unarmed strike against the grappler and simply shove them away from you to break the grapple, or am I missing something?
Unless your opponent has reach, that should work. In practice breaking free from grapples was rarely worthwhile in 5e and that doesn't change, the big difference in One D&D is that it winds up being fairly easy to grapple creatures that are much stronger than you (in 6e, a level 5 with 10 strength who isn't proficient in athletics has a 26% chance to grapple a cave bear; in One D&D he has a 60% chance).
And that doesn’t seem a li’l bit like 🐴💩 to anyone else but me?
If they want to have grapple use standard mechanics, there's a much better option than an attack roll. That would be
Grapple: the character targets one creature within reach, which must make a Strength save against the character's Strength save DC or be grappled.
I generally agree with you, except I would use the grappler’s passive Strength (Athletics) score as the DC.
I generally agree with you, except I would use the grappler’s passive Strength (Athletics) score as the DC.
At that point you're no longer using standard mechanics.
Why not?
Any skill can have a passive score.
Using passive scores as the DC for ability checks is a standard mechanic.
With the new “d20 Test” system streamlining things, taking a standard mechanic that applies to one type of d20 test and extending it to apply to another type of d20 test seems reasonable.
Because combat abilities don't trigger off of skills, they're either stat-based save or attacks. The clear motivation for the change is "this whole contest of athletics thing is a special snowflake mechanic and we want to get rid of it".
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How do you mean?
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Before it took an action to break a grapple, now its a save, you can't really build for it at least yet(future feats/class abilities may change that)other than being strong making the TN to break free comparatively lower. We wont know until we have a decent amount of use of this in play, and I'm not sure 5e materials will help much with that as we don't know how enemy design will change in the next edition.
Reach with an unarmed strike. So Bugbear and Astral Self monk.
Astral self monks are actually a pretty good Grapple option If I'm reading these rules together and applying some common sense.
I think the biggest issue I have with the proposed grapple rules is that it is too easy to lock a target down pretty much permanently.
The Grappler requires no skill at grappling at all, just enough HP to take the hits till the fight is over. The escape DC itself doesn't matter at all if the target has no way to move away. And even if they could move away, the Grappler just makes an AoO and locks them down again. It feels cheap.
"But Golaryn, it takes an attack to Grapple a target."
Yes it does, but 1 of the Fighter's attacks to keep a target from moving and giving it disadvantage seems like a pretty low price to pay for the benefits that it provides.
I am not completely against the changes to Grappling, I just think maybe it needs some work.
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Agreed. While I am happy that grappling got some changes, this seems highly exploitable. One of my friends wanted to be a grappler and had to heavily invest his PC’s growth into grappling to make it viable (Warforged Rune Knight Fighter). I did not like that he had to narrow his focus so much to make that work. This is kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum. There probably is a middle ground somewhere.
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One thing Crawford & Co suck at is “middle ground.” They bounce from one extreme to another like a bipolar ping pong ball.
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I think the big thing it needs is an immediate save (possibly in place of the attack roll -- what does AC have to do with grapples?)
Yes, but as was stated earlier. You have your Action and Bonus Action to deal with it before the end of the turn triggers the auto-save attempt. Not to mention allies that may be able to assist someone out of a less than ideal situation with a Grappler. Yes, if all you do is wait for the end of the turn and roll the prescribed save, then you're going to not work out so well as you are right back where you started. However, using an action to shove them 5ft away or a spell to trigger forced movement should end the Grapple condition and undo the thing that is keeping your movement at 0. Of course you may still be a bad place, possibly prone and only 5 ft from a Grappler who will take their turn before you. But maybe you have a bonus action to dash with, or a reaction shield spell to keep the unarmed strike from hitting you and grappling again. Or maybe the grappler isn't going to be able to try again as Beefcake son of Cakebeef the barbarian is closing the distance with a greataxe, rage, and an overwhelming desire for Grappler to stop bad-hugging their friend without consent. I mean, it's D&D.
Interestingly the tavern brawler feat makes you adept at escaping a grapple, succeed on a hit and shove them away breaking the grapple. Which seems appropriate because in a brawl someone is likely to grab you and you would be used to getting them away from you (or an ally) which sounds cool to me.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
If you are grappled, on your turn couldn’t you make an unarmed strike against the grappler and simply shove them away from you to break the grapple, or am I missing something?
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yeah you're right, you could, but the TB still gets their damage... small boost i suppose.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
At least you’re be free to move away instead of being locked down indefinitely.
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Unless your opponent has reach, that should work. In practice breaking free from grapples was rarely worthwhile in 5e and that doesn't change, the big difference in One D&D is that it winds up being fairly easy to grapple creatures that are much stronger than you (in 6e, a level 5 with 10 strength who isn't proficient in athletics has a 26% chance to grapple a cave bear; in One D&D he has a 60% chance).
And that doesn’t seem a li’l bit like 🐴💩 to anyone else but me?
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If they want to have grapple use standard mechanics, there's a much better option than an attack roll. That would be
Grapple: the character targets one creature within reach, which must make a Strength save against the character's Strength save DC or be grappled.
I generally agree with you, except I would use the grappler’s passive Strength (Athletics) score as the DC.
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At that point you're no longer using standard mechanics.
Why not?
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Because combat abilities don't trigger off of skills, they're either stat-based save or attacks. The clear motivation for the change is "this whole contest of athletics thing is a special snowflake mechanic and we want to get rid of it".